The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. No prejudice against recreation if clear criteria are proposed. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

List of Movies and TV Series Related to the History of Italy[edit]

List of Movies and TV Series Related to the History of Italy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This article should be deleted because it is WP:LISTCRUFT. This is because it satisfies definitions #3,#4, #6, and #12. -KAP03 (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - pure listcruft Spiderone 17:44, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - as per nom, goes against several points of WP:LISTCRUFT. Kosack (talk) 09:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and rename. I'm sorry, but there's nothing "Listcruft" about it. It doesn't "satisfy definitions #3,#4, #6, and #12." Italian historical period television films and TV programs are neither indiscriminate, unverifiable, unlimited and/or unmaintainable, and the works listed are relevant to the topic. The list author goes into some detail to explain what eras are depicted. It needs improvement not deletion. It's a valid list to accompany Category:Italian historical films (of the television films variety) -- though unfortunately we don't seem to have Category:Italian historical works to group film, TV as well as the preexisting Italian historical novel category. But it's a step in the right narration. It just needs a rename. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Shawn in Montreal: However, the article is not notable per WP:LISTN because it does not have "significant coverage" in reliable sources. KAP03 (talk) 05:11, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Meh. That's "one accepted reason." Generally, if you gotta a category you can have a list per WP:AOAL, or how I read it, anyway. We have a vast category scheme for historical fooian works. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 05:33, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I agree, although @Shawn in Montreal:, what do you recommend it to be called? Smmurphy^(Talk) 14:46, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Using the contents Category:Lists of historical period drama films as a model, maybe List of Italian historical films and television programs? I do see other lists use "set in," but that's not something I would suggest. We never use "movies," we don't title case common nouns, etc. Anything's better than the current title, pretty much. You'll see there's also List of Movies and TV Series Related to the History of England in that category, created by an apparently unrelated editor, that needs a rename too, imo. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:17, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The topic is way too broad and the criterion "related" is far too vague. Two Women is included because it is "based on actual events". That's a real red flag when referring to movies in general. I haven't seen it, but the only thing historical about Rome, Open City appears to be the setting. And since Italy didn't exist as a country until 1861, the earlier entries don't make a lot of sense. Also, delete List of Movies and TV Series Related to the History of England. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:43, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will make a separate nomination for List of Movies and TV Series Related to the History of England. KAP03 (talk) 15:56, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep this is not listcruft. The solution is improvement, not deletion. Lepricavark (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete -- unclear criteria for inclusion and possible OR. Not something one would expect to find in an encyclopedia. K.e.coffman (talk) 08:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - agree that the "topic is way too broad" and the "criteria" is not clear; further noted that there is no WP:RS citing; the films can be included and linked as part of the "See also" for the articles in which they are related topics. Kierzek (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Some delete !votes focus on criteria for inclusion/broadness/maintainability. I agree that is an issue, but it applies to lots of lists, probably including everything in Category:Lists of historical period drama films and List of historical novels#Italy. I think we should really be looking at WP:LISTN, which basically says that lists are notable if they pass GNG. Italian historical film is certainly notable, and frequently lists of historical films are presented in popular journalism and in scholarship. For one example, Sorlin, Pierre. Historical films as tools for historians (Film & History: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Film and Television Studies 18, no. 1 (1988): 2-15) discusses a number of films, not exactly as a list, but almost so, and focuses on Italian examples. Italian historical films are frequently studied as a collection, and work in this area would also lend itself well to a list. For instance, a list of crime films and television shows set in historic Italy could be based in part on Pezzotti, Barbara. Investigating Italy's Past through Historical Crime Fiction, Films, and TV Series: Murder in the Age of Chaos (Springer, 2016), to take a recent book-length example. Smmurphy^(Talk) 19:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• You haven't addressed the issue about the criteria. What does "related" mean? How far in the past do you have to go to be "historical"? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:51, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what related to means, which is why I asked what other titles should be used. As for criteria, what criteria do you mean? Are you talking about the WP:LISTCRUFT criteria? Smmurphy^(Talk) 03:35, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Yet another, related objection. The Category:Lists of historical period drama films Shawn in Montreal proposed as a model looks a bit dubious too. For one thing, it includes lists of films about the Bible and King Arthur. More seriously, it encompasses a large majority of film lists. Consider what could be excluded: science fiction, some fantasies and a few other genres. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.