The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Recurring characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. MBisanz ^talk 05:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Sonic the Hedgehog characters[edit]

Purely original research which is redundant to Recurring characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 04:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replace with redirect to Recurring characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog series; current list is a duplicate as well as extraneous, edging on WP:GAMEGUIDE material. --MASEM (t) 05:00, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per above. List of recurring characters is sufficient. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 15:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral: Just want to point out that this article was created with no concern about whether it would be kept or deleted. The other list at List of recurring characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) used to contain these minor one off characters (in addition to the recurring characters), but they were split off into their own list after a long dispute. The dispute was between between the Sonic Wikiproject and other VG Wikiproject editors who wanted to see them cleaned up (including myself).
- I proposed a compromise, where the minor characters would be listed at the bottom of the main list, as an index to the respective games where they appear in. This would have reduced the WP:OR and given them appropriate WP:WEIGHT, while still respecting the value of WP:LISTS as a *navigational* aid, to direct people to relevant information at games.
- User:TTN and User:A Man In Black disagreed and wanted them scrubbed completely. The Sonic people didn't like the middle ground either, insisting upon full coverage. There would be no compromise.
- User:A Man In Black pushed forward and moved the one-off characters to its own list, which I reverted for being non-notable.
- AMiB pointed out "If this is non-notable on it's own, it's non-notable in the other article as well"
- I pointed out that notability doesn't apply to content, and that merging it into the other list would be fine
- The index went on anyway. The exclusionists didn't care if it would be nominated for AFD, and the inclusionists didn't understand how or why it would eventually be nominated for AFD. I'm actually surprised it took this long.
Now, I don't personally care. I was simply trying to mediate a dispute that had spilled out onto WT:VG multiple times. Since then, the whole group of inclusionists have left for Wikia. I'd normally support the deletion of cruft like this, but having some insight into how it was created, I feel like I would be endorsing the strategy of exclusionists that wanted these characters deleted in the first place. This kind of mess undermines the value and legitimacy of AFD. Not blaming anyone here in this discussion right now. "It's just Chinatown". Forget it. Randomran (talk) 16:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per above. The one-shot characters can be put in the articles of their respective games, I guess. I'd like to see the Recurring Characters list be rearranged to something other than alphabetical order though, since Sonic being near the end of his own character roster is kind of... dumb. - Norse Am Legend (talk) 19:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per above. Detailed, but it still seems to be fancruft. -Koryu Obihiro (talk) 00:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep No reason given why it is incorrect to have a single comprehensive list. Clarifies finding them, useful for browsing. If the characters appear in the story, as can be found by inspection it is not OR. We should have as many lists of this sort as people are willing to maintain. DGG (talk) 12:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The "single, comprehensive list" already exists at List of recurring characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games). This one is just an arbitrary offshoot of it with no reliable sources whatsoever. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 06:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per reasons above. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect useless content fork.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect the uncited list filled with original research to the cited, more discriminate list which is well-sourced. Only makes sense. Them From Space 20:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A minor character list for non-reoccurring characters makes sense for such a large franchise. Needs better sourcing. No objection to a merge, but it sounds like that was tried and found wanting. Hobit (talk) 13:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't make sense if they're unsourced. This article is just a repository of in-universe trivia that belongs in either the respective, existing sections in the other article, the respective game articles or nowhere at all. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 13:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Certainly it can be sourced by primary sources and I'm a big fan of spinning out information when editorial needs dictate. Also lists often aren't sourced in any detail. See Palin for example. Hobit (talk) 15:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Actually, per Wikipedia:Lists#Listed items, lists are subject to the same sourcing standards as articles; the example you cited is a disambiguation page. Anyway, I still don't see what the "editorial need" is for this list; List of recurring characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) already fulfils the purpose of a list for Sonic characters, and to a far better standard than this list of unsourced trivia. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 18:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Lists are useful as navigation aids. WP:CLS Being unsourced is an editorial issue. If the topic was unsourcable, it would be a deletion issue. -Atmoz (talk) 01:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So where are the sources to justify these characters' notability? Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There are plenty of characters here not listed in the other list. Having two list, one for major characters, and one for minor, might make sense, but you can't combine them as one, that not working. And many of those listed have blue links to those character's own individual pages. The list is clearly valid. Dream Focus 18:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How wouldn't it make sense? This list currently provides no clear distinction from the other one, and a "major/minor" division would be completely arbitrary and therefore original research anyway. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to the recurring character list if we must (though I'm struggling to see why). This is an unfortunate mish-mash of the genuinely needed characters and assorted nobodies/bosses from the multitude of Sonic games, spin-offs and other media. In the first section for instance, we start off with all the major characters then suddenly slide into 'Wendy Witchcart' who, I believe, is the antagonist in one of Tails' spin-offs for the game gear, along with all the one-shot bosses that appear during that game. It's really scraping the barrel to list these as 'characters' in any sense, they're just obstacles, it's unlikely they'd all need to be mentioned in the game's own article. I've zero problem with multiple character lists if they were handled properly, but this bucket for random names to be chucked into indiscriminately is serving no purpose at all. Someone another 23:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.