The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  18:44, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of school massacres by death toll[edit]

List of school massacres by death toll (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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At first, I was in support of this article, but Millionsandbillions left a message on the article's talk page saying it was created from the List of rampage killers (school massacres) article without a proposal even being made and a consensus being reached in the latter's talk page. He also stated that the article goes against WP:NOTCENSORED and that redacting perpetrators' names makes the article less informative. I propose that this article be deleted and the original list restored, with any necessary changes that satisfy both parties. Versus001 (talk) 20:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep – I don't believe the names of the perpetrators are being "redacted". The original page didn't even mention the name of the massacre, which is what the page should be about. The original page gave requirements to how someone could get on the list (by killing two or more people). Most of the names given in the original page also simply redirected to the main page of the massacre, not an actual page of the perpetrator. The new page is more neutral and gives people the chance to be informed about individual events instead of it just being a pointless "killer scoreboard." Alvandria (talk) 0:24, 3 October 2015

You still did not propose the article first and try to get a consensus, which is how things are reached in Wikipedia if there's a content dispute. Versus001 (talk) 22:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Let me also note that WP:DUE needs to be taken into consideration here. Versus001 (talk) 06:24, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - extremely useful, especially since the Federal (United States) government is legally prohibited from keeping such information in one place. Bearian (talk) 23:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what the federal government's listing of such mass shootings has anything to do with this. If you want a list like the one provided in the article, you can go here. Versus001 (talk) 22:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete this article and restore the now redirected List of rampage killers (school massacres) - This new page was created unilateraly without any form of discussion or attempt at consensus building first thus violating WP:CON. The perpetrators' names have clearly been redacted because they no longer appear anywhere on the new List of school massacres by death toll page. Not only that, but because the creator of the new page decided to usurp a new page title instead of executing a regular page move the entire edit history of the old List of rampage killers (school massacres) has been lost. Thus it looks like there was a concentrated effort not just to remove the perpetrators' names from the current revision of the article but to make it look like they were never there in the first place. Although the new article does link to some articles about some of the specific events, I do not think it is unreasonable to also include the perpetrators' names somewhere in the article, especially seeing as there are several massacres listed on this article that do not even have a Wikipedia page of their own and thus a reader who was interested about the perpetrators themselves would have to go to the references to find out who they actually were. As I noted on the article's talk page this is not a stand-alone article but a sub-article of the List of rampage killers parent article. It was split out from the parent article in this edit because the "School Massacres" section became too large to have in the parent article. The original article did not give "requirements to how someone could get on the list (by killing two or more people)." Rather it is to limit the cases the can be added to the List of rampage killers and its various sub-articles. Originally the List of rampage killers and its sub-articles also contained so-called "massacres" where nobody was killed, such as the Ansbach school attack. Some of thes so-called "rampage killers" who killed no-one where still alive and this raised WP:BLP concerns. It was eventually decided through ths discussion and this discussion, as well as the subsequent deletion discussion, that the List of rampage killers and its sub-articles would only contaion cases of rampage killers that managed to have two or more fatal victims. It is a guideline for inclusion not an incitement to get on a killer scoreboard. Another similar article, the List of serial killers by number of victims has a guideline of someone "who murders three or more people" and ranks the perpetrators by number of victims thus making the article look like a so-called "killer scoreboard." The List of serial killers by number of victims also does not censor the various serial killers' names. Thus, seeing as there are other similar articles to the List of rampage killers and its sub-articles, I fail to see how the original List of rampage killers (school massacres) article violated WP:DUE or WP:NPOV. In fact it could be argued that the new List of school massacres by death toll article, by redacting the perpetrators' names, gives WP:UNDUE weight to the theory that spree killers seek fame and / or notoriety and that by never mentioning their names would prevent these crimes from happening. But if you look at List of rampage killers (Asia) you will see that there are several masacres that occurred inside China where not only are the perpetrators never mentioned by name but entire massacres go unreported due to fear of copycats. This suggests that the theory that not reporting a perpetraor's name will increase public safety is a WP:FRINGE theory. Also please note that List of rampage killers (school massacres) still redirects to List of school massacres by death toll. It would be reasonably to assume thatanyone who either clicks on that redirect or searches for it would want a list that includes the rampage killers themselves, not just the events. Thus making the new list useless for those users. Also. the List of rampage killers gives its definition of a rampage, it (to quote the page itself) "involves the (attempted) killing of multiple persons least partly in public space by a single physically present perpetrator using (potentially) deadly weapons in a single event without any cooling-off period." So terrorist attacks and state violence are both not considered rampage killings, but this new article adds terrorists attacks such as the Beslan massacre and Peshawar massacre as well as incidents of state violence such as the Kent State massacre thus making this new article even more useless for those who reach it through the List of rampage killers (school massacres) redirect. Please note that I am not opposed to altering the List of rampage killers (school massacres) or any of the other List of rampage killers pages, like make the default sort by date instead of death count, or by removing the number column so the lists no longer look like leaderboards (which I mentioned in this discussion here). The reason why I haven't made any changes to the structure of these articles myself is that there are twelve separate articles that would have to be redesigned and I would find this tedious. I do support redesigning these articles to remove their flaws but removing all the perpetrators' names is the worst way to go about it. Also I apologize for taking so long to reply, I did not have internet access for two days and was unaware that a deletion discussion was started about my previous talk page remark. -- Millionsandbillions (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete since this kind of format has not been applied to all the other similar articles, and I cannot see why this topic has to be so special. Warner Sun (talk) 03:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I see no basis for removing--there seems to be a dispute over whether the names of the perpetrators are needed. That's not a question for CSD. DGG ( talk ) 04:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - The move to this page appears to have been a very biased move by Alvandria. Not only has she created this page without consensus, under a very thin and almost accusative reasoning ("This article states 'To be included you must kill at least two dead.' I'm redirecting this to a more neutral version where the names of the perpetuator aren't in the limelight."), she has not, at the very least, applied the same sort of style to other rampage killer lists. If what she reasons holds up, then there is no reason for the school massacres article to be the only one with this kind of setup. I asked her if she could do that before I realized what this page was and nominated it for deletion, and she said she will. Yet, I have seen nothing of the kind; I don't know if it's unwillingness or obliviousness or whatever, but her special treatment of the school massacres sounds sketchy at best. Versus001 (talk) 15:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - per DGG. AfD is not the content dispute resolution forum. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Now that the original page at List of rampage killers (school massacres) has been restored the new page at List of school massacres by death toll should still be deleted as it violates WP:POVFORK. -- Millionsandbillions (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect - There are already pages that are similar to this one and have no need of being a list to know about. This list could be controversial to some users as well. There is also no need to add names to a list of massacres, as a avid-user I would rather not see the name of a infamous criminals doings, a very dark matter. Also it is noticeable for users to defend their articles from being deleted, and the relationship with this article seems to be a single-editor ownership, which is concerning. Consider having a Neutral standing-point when creating articles and shying away from articles that may lead to other topical talks like this. And no offense, it does look like a scoreboard of the most dis-honest criminals from this side of the barnyard. Adog104 (talk) 19:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)Adog104[reply]

• Including the names or not is something that should be discussed on the content dispute resolution forum first. Versus001 (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Alrighty then, thank you! Adog104 (talk) 22:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)Adog104[reply]

• You're welcome. But in the meantime, the fact that this article was created without any discussion first (plus all the other points made by Millionsandbillions) needs to be taken under consideration, hence why this deletion discussion was brought up in the first place. Versus001 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This is the only rampage killer article that's been edited like this and not the others. Can't see why this has to be special. 75.80.175.107 (talk) 19:57, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, per User:DGG. This seems to be a dispute about article content masquerading as a deletion discussion. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:29, 11 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • This is not just a dispute about article content. It's also about the fact that this was created without even an attempt at starting a discussion about it first, and what Adog104 said about the article having a "single-editor ownership" type of deal.

• Keep, lists are useful. and should not be deleted if not needed, only if list not needed. this list seems useful.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:15, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • But not when there's a nearly identical list already in place. Warner Sun (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Clear inclusion criteria for a notable topic. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 16:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - too much overlap, and two victims seems too few to constitute a massacre. "Two" are too few to be characterized as "several". If several people have not been killed, why call it a massacre? seems an effort to overemphasize such school shootings. Also, "massacre" implies larger intent.Parkwells (talk) 13:55, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.