The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. — JJMC89 (T·C) 23:55, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of televised Notre Dame Fighting Irish football home games prior to 1991[edit]

List of televised Notre Dame Fighting Irish football home games prior to 1991 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Fails WP:LISTN, too specific of a topic to warrant an article and borders on original research. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:52, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:52, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:52, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:52, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• KEEP How can it be "too specific"? And its not original research since the information is easily found. All the games listed have a link to their own articles about them. It is a valid list as it aids in navigation and provides additional information. Dream Focus 20:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per the nominator. There are so many adjectives to the noun "games" in this topic: "televised" - "Notre Dame" - "football" - "home" - "prior to 1991". Way too precise of a list to warrant inclusion. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gonzo fan2007: You're argument here sounds extremely nitpicky. Outside of deletion, do you have a different and less "precise" way to describe the topic? BornonJune8 (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @BornonJune8:, let me be clearer: per WP:LISTN (the notability guideline that we use to determine if a topic is notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia), this topic has not been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. Thus, it doesn't meet our notability guideline for inclusion as an article on Wikipedia and should be deleted. Pretty simple. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:53, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete seems to fail WP:LISTN to me. The detail of the list seems a little to "granular" for an encyclopedia. Perhaps the article can be re-tooled for Notre Dame Fighting Irish on Television or something like that.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails WP:GNG, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:LISTN, and WP:DIRECTORY; per all above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:LISTN and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Hardly a noteworthy topic that certain games are televised. Ajf773 (talk) 22:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ajf773: How exactly is it hardly a noteworthy topic? Bare in mind, that there actually was once upon a time that Notre Dame's home games weren't exclusively broadcast by NBC. What is actually noteworthy in on its own, is the idea of a single television network having exclusive rights to a college football program's home games. BornonJune8 (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as failing LISTN, and specifically the idea that notable list articles have "been discussed as a group or set". The sources are all about NBC buying the rights in '91, indicating that the real notable topic is the ND-NBC relationship, which already has an article. Also fails the spirit of WP:DIRECTORY. This is too specific to be notable, and only the last sentence of the lede would be worth keeping and merging into the ND-NBC article. Nole (chat·edits) 20:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nolelover: While the article does ultimately revolve back to NBC's relationship with Notre Dame, it also when you go much further talks about CBS and ABC's (and ESPN for that matter) coverage of college football, since they were the principal network broadcasters of Notre Dame's games prior to 1991. The point is that you can't talk about one thing without bringing up the other. BornonJune8 (talk) 12:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @BornonJune8:If you can't talk about one without the other, then why not talk about it in the post-1991 ND-NBC article? The issue is that you're making a very strong argument that the NBC relationship is notable, but not an argument that this list is notable. Notice how above where you say to Ajf that "What is actually noteworthy...is the idea of a single television network having exclusive rights", you're effectively making the argument that we're all making ... in favor of deleting this article. This topic--not ND on tv, or the NBC relationship after 1991--needs to be notable enough for its own list per LISTN, and that's why a number of us have voted delete. Nole (chat·edits) 03:08, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Nolelover: If that's the case, then why aren't you arguing to merge the articles instead of all out deleting this particular one? Or make a suggestion that somebody else made and instead create a broad-scaling, all-in-one article about Notre Dame's history on television. And what I'm trying to get across is while NBC may have had exclusive broadcasting rights to ND's home games since, 1991, there was once upon a time, when that wasn't the case. Of course, NBC's relationship with ND is notable (with or without my input), hence why there's a separate article on their broadcasts. The list within itself, also reflects on how college football on television has gradually evolved. Take for instance, the 1984 court ruling pretty much allowed individual schools and athletic conferences were freed to negotiate contracts on their own behalf. It's doubtful or debatable that without that ruling, any of this would've really or ultimately happened. BornonJune8 (talk) 06:37, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • @BornonJune8: I did think about merging though. Look at the last sentence of my original comment: "...only the last sentence of the lede would be worth keeping..." which is a recognition that some of the core topic might be worth saying in another article, but as written, only one sentence is actually worth "merging". The rest of the prose is about the ND-NBC relationship, which already has an article. None of that needs to be merged into an article that is about the same topic but is many many times longer. As currently written, I don't think we're losing anything by deleting. Nole (chat·edits) 14:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Nolelover: I don't think that making an article that describes Notre Dame home games on television prior to 1991 isn't that much different than an article about the National Football League holding games on Monday nights prior to 1970. Are you saying that that particular list isn't notable on it's own since ABC would eventually turn the concept of Monday night NFL games into a series? BornonJune8 (talk) 06:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • @BornonJune8: The fact that WP:Other stuff exists is not a reason to keep this article, and while I haven't looked at that article yet, yes it's very possible that I would vote to delete that article as well if the context is the same as this one here, with no sources discussing that topic set as notable in and of itself. The fact that this monday night format eventually becomes notable is not a reason that the games before the tv deal are also notable. Nole (chat·edits) 14:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have nominated List of Monday night National Football League games prior to 1970 for deletion (here) for similar reasons here. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • @Nolelover: For the record if not sake of the argument, here's how the Notre Dame-NBC deal was initially covered back in February 1990. Keep in mind in the context of how college football on network television was at by 1990, why did was such an earth shattering turn of events: COLLEGE FOOTBALL; Notre Dame Scored a $38 Million Touchdown on Its TV Deal, Notre Dame Jumps Ship, Signs With NBC, Notre Dame Breaks Ranks on TV Football Rights, ANALYSIS : Notre Dame’s Deal Shouldn’t Be a Shock, NOTRE DAME DEAL WITH NBC STIRS FUROR, ABC, CFA ALTER TV DEAL IN LIGHT OF NBC-NOTRE DAME, Notre Dame Sells Football Games to NBC BornonJune8 (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete 1973 Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team etc. already denotes the games which aired on TV with the network. An absurdly granular article is not needed just for the cruft of who the announcers were. Reywas92^Talk 08:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Reywas92: That's only one article and season though, plus even if it already denotes the games which aired on TV with the network, it doesn't exactly list the announcers to go with it. BornonJune8 (talk) 09:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @BornonJune8: Unfortunately, not everyone has an intense obsession with broadcasters like you do. The broadcast of the game is nowhere near as notable as the game itself. Eagles 24/7 (C) 13:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Eagles247: You're argument that it might as well be deleted because in your words "not everyone has an intense obsession with broadcasters like you do" is extremely subjective at best. What's not to say that there actually is some people who go through Wikipedia who are inherently curious about how certain college football games (and sporting events in general for that matter) were broadcasts prior to the advent of the internet? And the broadcast of a game goes hand in hand with the game itself mind you. I mean, not everybody that is somehow watching or listening to it can literally go to the game in person. So they have to keep track and tabs of it on television or on the radio. BornonJune8 (talk) 01:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Eagles247: @Nolelover: Think about it this way, these articles dedicated to the broadcasts of sporting events such as college football during a particular time frame are at the end of the day, really no different than articles that list the episodes and seasons for scripted television programs. What I'm trying to get across is that these broadcasts are in essence, like episodes of said sporting program. The game results go hand in hand with the broadcasts, since they're detailing the "plot" (if you want to call it that) of said "episodes". BornonJune8 (talk) 02:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • @BornonJune8: I'm somewhat sympathetic to that argument, so I'll respond to that and this will likely be my last reply unless other points come up, as we're talking in circles. If these games are like episodes of a tv program, then you still need to prove that the program is notable. I agree with you that the tv program after 1991 is notable. I do not believe that the "program" before 1991 is notable enough for its own article or list given the current sourcing. I also believe that the best place for this topic is in the history section of the ND-NBC article. If you can find sources with significant discussion of ND's pre-1991 television status--not just passing mentions of which network they were shown on--then that's an argument that the list is notable. If not, you are not making arguments that will change anyone's vote. Lots of people are curious about topics that do not belong on Wikipedia--we have entire policies about that. Nole (chat·edits) 02:16, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • @Nolelover: Well for starters, this article mentions the DuMont network picking up Notre Dame's games in 1950. This article brings up the fact that CBS televised a lot of Notre Dame's home games (including the 1988 match-up against Miami) prior to the 1991 NBC contract. Here's another article that mentions Notre Dame football on TV in the 1980s This article mentions that ABC provided a broadcast of the Iowa-Notre Dame game in 1949 on the same day of the annual Ohio-State Michigan match-up. This book mentions how in 1986, CBS and ESPN signed a deal to air their games on their respective networks. BornonJune8 (talk) 07:15, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • @Nolelover:, @Eagles247:, @Gonzo fan2007: More information on Notre Dame football on the old DuMont network: Onward to Victory: The Creation of Modern College Sports, Mr. Notre Dame: The Life and Legend of Edward Moose Krause, Season of Saturdays: A History of College Football in 14 Games, CFB150 – TV Turns College Football Into a National Phenomenon, WBKB Part II - Chicago Television, The Impact of Television on Georgia, 1948-1952 BornonJune8 (talk) 07:59, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
              • There are some helpful sources in here and I've been working to integrate some of these into the exising ND articles, although that does not change my vote for this specific list. Nole (chat·edits) 05:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete weather something was televised or not is not important enough to generate a whole list article on the matter.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Johnpacklambert: There are a dozen of articles on Wikipedia that all but center on list of events (not necessarily just college football or sporting events in general) that were "televised". So I don't understand exactly, in what context you mean: List of televised academic student quiz programs, Lists of television programs, List of Mariah Carey live performances, List of games televised on ESPN Saturday Primetime, List of Christmas television episodes and specials in the United Kingdom, List of non-televised Seventh Doctor stories, List of NWA/WCW closed-circuit events and pay-per-view events BornonJune8 (talk) 02:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Johnpacklambert: Furthermore, not that this is an absolute justification of the existence of this particular list, but keep in mind that listing certain televised events on Wikipedia depends on the amount of available reference material, and the suitability for a general encyclopedia of the subject matter. In a nutshell, some things which were not televised will be included, and some which were televised won’t be; that’s more or less irrelevant. BornonJune8 (talk) 04:37, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.