The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Going, going, gone. Somebody with more time and patience than I have should probably nip over to the Commons and see what (if anything) needs to be done about the assortment of images associated with this. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Magic Mansion[edit]

Magic Mansion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I'm nominating this as part of the multiple Warren Chaney related episodes currently up for AfD.

A look at the sources for this article shows that it suffers from the same problems as the other AfDs. There's a large reliance on IMDb and other websites that cannot be used to show notability. Some of the reviews and other links go back to primary sources, which should not be considered reliable or a sign of notability given that so many Chaney related articles have claimed coverage through outlets that by all accounts do not seem to exist. There's also a review from Swapsale, which shouldn't be considered usable since they've sold some of Chaney's other work.

Now this source does mention the show, but I have to admit a certain amount of skepticism as a whole given the dearth of sources out there and the way that sources have been misrepresented in other articles.

Now assuming that this show did exist, I just can't see where it's particularly noteworthy and even if sources do exist out there to show that it could be notable, I'd actually argue for this to be WP:TNT'd and re-created to ensure that it's neutral and accurate.

I haven't made a rundown of the sources in this article item by item since the problems here are so similar to the others. However if there's enough demand for it I can do this, although I think that it's somewhat unnecessary.

I'm also nominating List of Magic Mansion episodes for deletion, given that it's related to this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 00:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: The other articles currently up for AfD are here (Space Patrol Chronicles) and here (America: Call to Greatness). More will be following. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 00:09, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Along with the WP:GNG going on with all of these the WP:SELFPROMOTION is staggering. If they had put in as much effort into actually creating these works as the have producing WikiP articles about them they might have accomplished something worth noting. MarnetteD|Talk 00:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom, this whole Chaney thing is wild. Dbrodbeck (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom due to lack of verifiability. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 00:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. From the Kentucky New Era newspaper article and this listing in a book published by Wayne State University Press, I think it's safe to say that this is not a hoax and that it did air. However, I'm not seeing significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. I think it probably would be best if these Chaney articles were TNT-deleted and rewritten from scratch due to the promotion, poor sourcing, and verifiability issues. I'm willing to accept that this could be notable, but I'd want someone other than a promotional SPA to write it. There's too much history of misrepresentation and misuse of sources to trust what's been written in the article so far. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. For all of the reasons already mentioned and also b/c upon further investigation, I think even the 2 sources NinjaRobotPirate mentioned are extremely dubious. For one thing, the article says that Magic Mansion was an original production of the Armed Forces Radio & Television Service (AFRTS). I’ve been looking into that angle and it seems extremely unlikely that in the 1960’s, AFRTS was creating original TV sitcoms that aired on an ongoing basis for 3 years and were written, acted, filmed and produced by servicemen in Okinawa. I’ll go into more detail about why at Talk:Magic Mansion. Also, Magic Mansion is only mentioned in one sentence in what’s a pretty long puff piece about Chaney’s life story, with an emphasis on his stint working for that same paper. I don’t think it’s too cynical to assume that the journalist A) might have known Chaney and B) probably didn’t fact check this one minor detail out of the whole article that wasn’t even about Magic Mansion anyway. The book cites imdb and tv.com as main sources, which we all know are problematic, and it's a perfect example of the same circular referencing I have found every single time I start looking into legitimate, but unreliable sources that mention one of Chaney's books, TV shows or movies. They're legitimate in the sense that it's unlikely there was a direct connection to Chaney, but unreliable b/c it was written by someone who didn't do their due diligence with research. I have not found a single reliable source in a reference list OR in my own research that supports any of the statements made in any article about Chaney. Permstrump (talk) 01:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I figured that would come up. I cringed when I saw the citations to the IMDb in that book. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • After all we've seen, I agree about the likelihood of the New Era simply taking Cheney's word for it that the series existed. But I wonder how this could have gotten into the WSUP book. I wouldn't be surprised if they fell for a hoax - mistakes happen in serious published books. Sometimes editors are lazy. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:16, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just noticed that the WSUP book came out in 2014. That makes it more probable they were suckered by this apparent web of deceit that began around 2011. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 12:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Edit to add: This same local paper has reported numerous times that Chaney has a PhD in psychology and is a practicing psychologist, but his PhD dissertation from UNT is available online and it says his PhD was in management. Even if he did get some kind of combined degree in UNT's behavioral science program, which there's no documented indication of, it's a clear misrepresentation to call him a psychologist. Therefore, I definitely do not consider that local paper a reliable source, especially for the numerous articles that were clearly based off of an interview with Chaney, many of them written by the same journalist, Lowell Atchley. It's the paper for the small town he grew up in and mainly this one journalist kept writing articles on him for years and years after he moved away. My guess is that either Chaney would just call him up and ask him to do a story or the journalist believed all of it and thought he was a local kid who became a big celebrity. Permstrump (talk) 15:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Has anyone looked into the possibility that the various images for the program were photoshopped? The title card itself doesn't look like something that could have existed in the mid-1960s without a Photoshop-like program from the 1990s or later. Perhaps a time machine was involved? :) Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I find it interesting that SInclairindex mentions on the talk page that he/she has not seen video tapes, only kinescopes, yet, we have these lovely pictures from the 'show'...... Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• @Stevietheman: I did try to manually reverse google image search like 2 of them with no luck. Is there a bot that can do that for all of them in one shot? Permstrump (talk) 14:39, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I've never needed to do that before, and so I have never looked for such a bot. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 15:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Photoshop: I seriously suspect the images are faked. The metadata on some of them show they went through Photoshop (that could be innocent in itself). If you increase the color saturation on Magic_Mansion_(Induction_Episode).jpg it seems clear that the two people and dummy have been overlaid over a separate image, and if you zoom in on the woman's hair you can see a border where the original image was cut. If you look at the shadows in Magic_Mansion_Episode-Basket_of_Deception.jpg you can see that the lighting is from top-to-bottom, except Chaney is lit from bottom to top. In MagicMansion_Episode-Rathmore's_Magic_Trunk.jpg the shadows show lighting from right to left, except the left figure is lit from left to right. If you zoom in at the bottom of the figure on the left, and Chaney's feet, you can see anomalous blurring. Chaney's feet also do not appear to align with the floor. It would be impressive and insane if the entire Magic Mansion were utterly fictional. Magic Mansion now appears on an insane number of user-generated websites, apparently copied from Wikipedia and/or IMDB. Alsee (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as everything adds up to a hoax for me. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 16:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I've emailed AFRTS about this to ask if this show existed. I figure that if it does, then that's something less to worry about but if it doesn't then they would certainly need to know for obvious reasons. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Shoot Tokyogirl79, I should have mentioned that on Thursday I emailed AFN (formerly AFRTS for those who haven't looked into that angle). I was waiting to see what they had to say and it was anticlimactic, so I forgot. They wrote back Friday and just said they only have records going back a few years and to try contacting the National Archives. I haven't tried that yet. I was going to copy the same message to a few different places. I'll write more about it on Rhododendrites/Chaney. Permstrump (talk) 05:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Good to know! That's something to check into! Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I was going to go ahead and WP:SNOW this one like the others, but decided for the moment to leave it open on account of 1. @Tokyogirl79:'s query mentioned above, and 2. the fact that somebody should probably go through and tag all the images used here for nuclear demolition. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I've spent quite a while investigating as well and I endorse everything above. Magic Mansion might(?) be real, but the lack of documentable Notability, the wild promotionalism, the utterly unreliable sourcing, and the socking and actively-deceptive edits by the article creator make this a clear TNT. Alsee (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Update on contacting AFRTS: Sort of a non-update, but I heard back on facebook from AFN-Pacific, formerly AFRTS's Far East Network (FEN). That guy also thought the national archives might be the best bet, but he sounded intrigued and said he'd look into it and get back to me with more information if he can. Tokyogirl79 already contacted the national archives. I imagine they only answer messages during normal business hours, so I assume we won't hear back until Monday or Tuesday at the earliest. I think it's good that we left the Magic Mansion page up in the meantime, because it will help them understand what we're talking about so they can adequately research it. Permstrump (talk) 07:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment as interesting an academic exercise as this is, the thing has no coverage anywhere outside the Chaneyverse, just saying.... Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Fascinating. I'm here because this topic was categorised as "Japan-related", which it isn't really. I found myself chasing a claim that Chaney had "discovered" the actress Tia Carrere, a claim which dissipates after about two links to the film Aloha Summer. Something which really bugs me, though, is that after the work of removing all trace of the "Chaneyverse", WP will no longer be of immediate help to anyone trying to find out about any of these fictions. Imaginatorium (talk) 06:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.