The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP. Spinning Spark 20:27, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Margo Howard-Howard

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Non-notable drag queen that is most likely not an actual person; as per "Truth Fiction" sectionBurnberrytree (talk) 23:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The characterization as "non-notable" seems belied by his/her extensive coverage in the print media and television, including The New York Times (repeatedly) and the Village Voice. I agree that the ambiguity surrounding whether this was a real person or a persona of somebody else is odd, and might be better addressed in the article, but deletion clearly seems wrong. Uucp (talk) 02:15, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"The actress, performance artist and singer Susana Ventura, better known as Penny Arcade, has over the years created a group of eccentric and sometimes disturbing characters drawn from life. Two of her latest inventions are Ruthie the Duck Lady, a beer-guzzling bag woman, and Dame Margo Howard Howard, a 50-year-old drag queen" [1] I still think that the drag queen is non-notable; the references are too small/inpassing "Mr. Hendrix ... would rather curl up with 'I Was a White Slave in Harlem,' the autobiography of the drag queen Margo Howard-Howard"

The fact that one citation is minor doesn't mean that all citations are minor. I could just as easily find a glancing reference to Barack Obama in a newspaper article, would that mean that Mr. Obama is non-notable and should have his wikipedia entry removed? How's this for a more substantial article (from the New York Times, November 20 1988)

"After reading I Was a White Slave in Harlem, it is impossible to imagine a conversation that Margo Howard-Howard would not dominate. His life was a breathless walk on the wild side. Stories were for embellishing, rules for breaking and people either fools or toys - or, less often, mythical figures of the sort that Howard-Howard, the grand drag queen, manifestly considered himself to be. For decades, until his death in September, he breezed through a slick New York scene of transvestites and tricksters. Figures of New York legend appear in the book (written with Abbe Michaels, a New York freelance writer) like flickering images on a shifting screen. Now here, suddenly gone, are the likes of James Dean, Truman Capote, Andy Warhol - most of them conveniently dead. What is true, not quite so true or downright false eventually becomes less urgent than what will happen next. Howard-Howard lengthily proclaims his lineage - from British royalty; that the connection was fabricated matters little. Underlying the layers of glitz is a gritty story of an often troubled person. His mother thought her only son belonged in the circus; a customer willing to pay $100 for a kiss nearly bit off Howard-Howard's tongue. The title refers to the years he claimed that he was a willing prisoner of Leroy (Nicky) Barnes, Harlem's heroin king. Finally, there is escape, Methadone treatment and a final ego trip: Howard-Howard began a New York society to honor Mary, Queen of Scots, filling it with society matrons, some of whom whispered that her voice seemed a bit husky. Last year, on the 400th anniversary of Mary's beheading, Margo visited England and met Queen Elizabeth II. The book's last line: She's a rather nice lady, said one queen of the other."

Factiva returns 9 references to Howard-Howard. They are the St Petersburg Times, 29 January 1991 and 17 May 1991, The New York Times, 17 November 1988, 20 November 1988, 4 August 1989, 26 November 1995, and 17 May 2005, The (Canadian) Globe and Mail, 20 March 1987, The Times (of London) 17 June 2005. That's references in the top newspapers of three major nations over a period spanning 18 years. He/She is notable. Uucp (talk) 03:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One of the St. Petersburg articles (17 May 1991) only confirms that Margo Howard Howard isn't a real person: Penny Arcade - Press: St. Petersburg Times Burnberrytree (talk) 04:11, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Batman isn't real. Batman gets a wikipedia page. The test is not reality, the test is notability. Uucp (talk) 01:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The book of the author neither has reviews nor critical evaluation compared to other works. Batman is a character re-occurent in pop culture and numerous comics; Margo Howard-Howard would be an "orphan" if not linked from the publisher Four Walls Eight Windows or Penny Arcade. The link from List of drag queens is inappropriate because Margo isn't the performing alter-ego of an actual drag queen; Margo is Arcade's pen-name. A redirection to Penny Arcade instead of an article might be appropriate.

Keep: No, the 17 May 1991 St. Petersburg article does not confirm Margo Howard-Howard isn't a real person - because she's mentioned a sentence after another person whom Penny Arcade used as a character who was a real, verifiable person: Andrea "Whips" Feldman. There is also a video of Margo Howard-Howard appearing on the Joe Franklin TV show in 1988, and the person appearing is not Penny Arcade. Howard-Howard has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject over time. As far as critical evaluations compared to other works, the 2005 New York Times article quotes Grady Hendrix favorably comparing Howard-Howard's book to the writing of Jonathan Franzen and David Foster Wallace.--Larrybob (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.