The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulted as keep. Whereas the keep arguments are convincing, there was unfortunately just not enough interest to the discussion to close it as keep.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Matrix of Leadership

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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This plot element does not establish notability independent of Transformers through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of plot details better suited to Wikia. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so extended coverage is unnecessary. TTN (talk) 20:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. The current article is a mess, and treats plot elements with far, far too great a level of detail. That said, of course, independent sourcing is the issue at hand. I am aware that there is an active debate about whether sources that are independent of the creators of a fictional setting but that are themselves purely dedicated to that fictional setting (such as world guides, work-length plot summaries, toy guides, and the like) satisfy this requirement. If so, it is trivially easy to find references that would permit an article at this title (although, again, clearly not one this extensive). Otherwise, there are at least some truly independent references, although their depth of coverage is debatable:

Shook, John R.; Swan, Liz Stillwaggon, eds. (2009). Transformers and Philosophy: More than Meets the Mind. Popular Culture and Philosophy. Open Court. pp. 187–188. ISBN 978-0812696677. A discussion of the passing of the Matrix of Leadership in the context of willful sacrifice in a book exploring the potential philosophical interpretations of the Transformers franchise. Proof that AFD lets me learn about things I didn't know existed.
Knight, Michael Muhammad (2009). Journey to the End of Islam. Soft Skull Press. p. 312. ISBN 978-1593762469. Almost unquestionably a trivial mention, but it's simply too weird not to comment on a notable author mentioning the Autobot Matrix of Leadership as part of a bizarre metaphor about Abu Bakr!

However, I'm not sure where I stand on the argument of independence, third-party sourcing, and fiction in general, except that I really do believe we'd be better off with an RFC to clarify the issue rather than taking scatterings of articles to AFD. In any case, I'm neutral here; the sources of the second type probably aren't enough to stand on their own, and I'm not willing to get my hands dirty by arguing an outright keep. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:50, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:50, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KTC (talk) 07:17, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Took about 2 minutes to find a reliable third party news article talking about the Matrix. More could easilby be added. Mathewignash (talk) 20:47, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Mathewignash (talk · contribs), no reason for deletion, we do not delete all of the Transformers articles because there notable. JJ98 (Talk) 08:16, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I think I have a stalker. Mathewignash (talk) 20:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- WP:OTHERSTUFF. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 03:11, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This may be something that can be salvaged as a standalone article. Alternatively List of Transformers objects or List of Transformers artifacts might be an appropriate merge-creation for this, Space Bridge, and other "bits and bobs" that lack individual out-of-universe notability but, as a group, are worth mentioning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The Indy Week article found by Mathewignash is a good source, but it doesn't display any out-of-universe notability. The books mentioned by Squeamish Ossifrage seem like they could provide some interesting information that would make this article worth keeping. However, it might be better to create an analysis section in the main Transformers article and bring them up there instead. --Jpcase (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.