The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Non-admin closure. Result is KEEP, nomination withdrawn. Whpq (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew Abelson[edit]

Matthew Abelson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Reading this article, I could find A) no particular notability beyond winning the one competition (Mid-East Regional Hammered Dulcimer Competition) and B) the sources are paper thin considering there are five of them. Look at the sources and tell me any one of them passes muster as a WP:V or WP:RS. The only other claim is who he played for and I don't think who you play for confers notability. Pigman☿ 02:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawing nomination I formally withdraw my nomination of the article. Pigman☿ 18:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I disagree. A musician who has been invited to appear for the President and Vice-President of the United States, who has produced three CDs with such notable musicians as Sam Bush and Vassar Clements, who is a teacher, performer, recording artist and producer, and an award-winner at that, is IMO notable enough to have an article.Rosencomet (talk) 03:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Meets criteria 9 and 10 for musicians and ensembles in WP:MUSIC at the very least, possibly 5 and 6, maybe others. Appears to also meet criteria 1, possibly 4, for composers and lyricists. —Viriditas | Talk 03:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment A Google search[1] on the competition yielded only six hits, almost all related to Mr. Abelson. Correcting the word "Mid-East" to "MidEast" (a Google suggestion) yielded zero hits. I find it difficult to call it a major award. Criteria 10 of WP:MUSIC? I'm afraid I don't see the applicability here? Pigman☿ 03:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment 2 Viriditas, would you mind elaborating a bit on your other WP:MUSIC points? If you are finding info not in the article, please add it to the article and indicate it here. Nothing in the article now says he meets the other criteria you mentioned. Pigman☿ 03:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abelson meets and exceeds the requirements for WP:MUSIC. He won the Mid-Eastern Regional Hammered and Mountain Dulcimer Championships in 1999, a historically significant festival in Coshocton, Ohio,[2] considered the oldest dulcimer festival in Ohio and the second oldest on the planet. The dulcimer plays an important role in the 19th century culture of Appalachia, appearing in canal towns like Roscoe Village where the festival has been held for three decades; Abelson is the inheritor of a regional American folk tradition that gets little popular press. Abelson has been written about in Scene Magazine the Cleveland Free Times, the Cleveland Jewish News, Cleveland Magazine, OSU's The Lantern, and was the subject of a documentary on PBS; he's also got three CD's to his credit. The Plain Dealer, the largest circulating newspaper in the state of Ohio, includes a biographical entry on him on their Sparx in the City website, where apparently he had to go through an open audition and was selected as a participating artist,[3], meaning that the city of Cleveland recognizes Abelson as a cultural treasure. —Viriditas | Talk 04:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • None of what you've found and presented here was to be found with good WP:V sources in the article. The award is currently sourced to what is essentially a program bio, not exactly a reliable source. I also looked for sources online before bringing this article to AfD but did not find any of those sources you are referencing. Having three CDs is not automatically a sign of notability, particularly since they appeared to be self-produced by his own production company. Since you've already found this info, would you consider adding just two good WP:RS from those you've found to the article? I'd be quite happy to withdraw this nomination if you or someone else would do so. Thanks, Pigman☿ 05:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a reasonable request. I'll try my best. —Viriditas | Talk 05:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you very much. I hope I didn't sound snippy above. I just didn't have the info. I went to college in southern Ohio and am familiar with Appalachian music, from bluegrass to folk to the particular kind of vocal gospel from those parts. I tend to think of it as the "real" country music rather than the more commercial Nashville strain of country. I worked at a radio station that had a sizable portion of its programming devoted to this music. So I was surprised at the detail you brought forward on Mr. Abelson. But, then again, I've been out of touch with this particular strain of music for more years than I want to admit. Again, thank you for doing the research. I really appreciate it. Cheers, Pigman☿ 07:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Er, I don't really want to seem like I'm qualifying my offer to withdraw my nomination but upon closer inspection, I still have trouble finding good sources for Mr Abelson. This link [4] is a program note, not remotely a WP:RS. And it appears wholly based on the bio he probably wrote and gives out in his "Virtual Press Kit." [5]. The "Sparx in the City" program [6] appears to be primarily a business driven program and I can't find any mention that participation means Cleveland "recognizes Abelson as a cultural treasure" or that the audition process was rigorous in any way. And while the location and age (since 1974?) of the Mid-East Regional Hammered Dulcimer Competition is certainly evocative of the roots of the American dulcimer music, I find nothing to indicate it is more prominent than scores of dulcimer contests around the US. The college paper The Lantern gave half an article to him [7] but this provided very limited information. A news search turned up only one possible news story of substance on Mr Abelson. It was in the Cleveland Jewish News, unfortunately by subscription only. Checking all the other papers you suggested returned no hits.

Viriditas, while evocative and impassioned, I can't actually verify any of the citations and claims you listed above. As I said earlier, if just two valid WP:RS and WP:V sources can be found, I will withdraw the nomination. Otherwise, I'll let it play out here. Sorry. Pigman☿ 20:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused by your comment and your claims about me above and in the edit summary. Your timestamp shows that you changed your offer at 20:39, 18 December 2007 -- six hours after I added three verifiable citations to the reference section at 14;29.[8]. And if you had checked the article, you would have noticed that the Cleveland Jewish News URL is linked directly to the archival article which is available in full. —Viriditas | Talk 02:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Abject and humble apologies comment My mistake. I left my comment for a couple of hours and obviously didn't refresh the version. I may also have missed them because I expected to find them as inline citations rather than as references at the end. Totally my fault. Stupidity rules my brain. I formally withdraw my nomination of the article. Because I'm involved, I don't think I should close it but I'll put a notice up with my nomination at the top. Again, apologies. Pigman☿ 18:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Rosencomet and Viriditas. Maxamegalon2000 06:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Can this be closed as "withdrawn by nominator" yet? As a side-comment, I really wouldn't feel competent to judge what counts as notability when it comes to hammer dulcimer players or their awards (as opposed to, say, rock guitarists), and I don't think that lumping both together as "musicians" and requiring the same quantity of references would be commonsensical (the same quality of references, certainly).--Paularblaster (talk) 13:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment: and the quality so far has me thinkig (delete, delete, delete). --Paularblaster (talk) 21:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Question. The reference links do not appear to satisfy WP:V, WP:RS or WP:NVP. The reference citations should be links to reputable, unbiased, third-party sources. Viriditas, do you think that Starwood is being given "undue weight" in having an advertising link (complete with prices) in the body of the article? Or is Starwood the only venue (or by far the most important venue) in which this artist has play? Mattisse 13:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please go right ahead and remove any inappropriate links. Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 13:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is NOT an advertising link. It is a link to a page that simply lists the speakers and entertainers who have been at different Starwood Festivals to support the statement that Matthew Abelson did, indeed, appear there. It is only a list of past events, so the fact that the prices of those events are in the list can hardly be called "advertising", unless you have a time machine to attend past events. And if I remember correctly, it was placed there to satisfy a "citation needed" tag placed either by Mattisse or one of her many sock-puppets. I just replaced it with a better one. Rosencomet (talk) 18:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Reliable sourcing, verifiability, and notability concerns have now been addressed. --MPerel 17:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Question for Viriditas - having read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NVP, do you think http://www.flyingdulcimer.com/ meets the criteria of a reputable, unbiased, reliable third-party source? Or http://www.fssgb.org/abelson.html? (If you click on Back home at bottom, you get a 404 message. Or http://www.rosencomet.com/starwood/2002/program/a-e.html (considering that is the site of the author of the article)? Mattisse 20:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is NOT the site of the author of the article, as I have explained MANY times before. It is the site of an organization for which I am one of many volunteer workers. I have never inputted a single word to that site. It is the site of the organization that runs the Starwood Festival, and it contains the programs of said festival, and is being used as a citation merely to show that the subject did, indeed, appear at that event and offer a workshop. This is an entirely acceptable citation for that purpose. Here's another one, 3rd party, that at least shows him to have performed there[9].Rosencomet (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - http://murugabooker.com/ace.html fulfills the requirements of WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NVP? Mattisse 22:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment --- Please see [10] where Rosencomet was indefinitely blocked for violating policy on 12-18-07 and [11] which outlines the COI issues he should address regarding his true identity and the adding of Starwood links to articles in which he has COI issues, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Proposed decision if he wishes to be unblocked. This article, Matthew Abelson is one of the Rosencomet articles listed in this arbitration as a Starwood-related article. Mattisse 14:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Er, Mattisse, I don't really believe this the right forum to be adding this information. This is an AfD about the article itself and the notability of the subject. It's not a referendum on Rosencomet's actions. He wasn't blocked as a sockpuppet so this doesn't bear on his contributions to this discussion. Some of the links Rosencomet may have added to the article may violate COI and/or be inadequately reliable sources, but this doesn't address the more central issues of this AfD. That's my opinion here. Cheers, Pigman☿ 23:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry! I was concerned about the WP:COI issues as this article was in the Starwood Arbitration and he still has not clarified of his user page who he is. But if that's O.K. with you, it certainly is with me. Thanks! Mattisse 23:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstood my comment. I certainly believe Rosencomet has plenty of COI issues, including with insufficiently reliable and/or spammy links/sources he put in this particular article. However, that isn't the central reason why I put it up for AfD nor a reason to delete the article. I'm currently satisfied there are some good sources to support notability and perhaps much of the information currently in the article. As to the links I believe to be inadequate, that's a content issue best left to individual editors, not an AfD. I'll probably review them in a little while and see what needs to be done. I merely wanted to suggest that your comment might not be entirely appropriate to the topic at hand. No offence intended nor am I saying you did anything wrong, just an opinion. I'm sorry if it came across as a rebuke or attack. Again, not my intent. Sincerely and best, Pigman☿ 23:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.