The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 03:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Metal Gear timeline[edit]

Redundant and irreconcilably in-universe original research. This is an original synthesis, taking bits and pieces of a fictional story and arranging them into a timeline, with no clear criteria for inclusion or omission. Additionally, none of this can be referenced save to direct observation of the games in question, and each of the games already has its own article (as well as a series of sub-articles and an umbrella series article) to describe its story. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nomination. I agree, word for word. Consequentially 03:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom, this serves no encyclopedic value _└ ^UkPaolo/_talk^┐ 09:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Vote: Delete per nom. Comment: WTF? Edeans 10:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as gamecruft. JIP | Talk 11:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Eury4we 16:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{talk | done | doing} 22:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I'm sure we've seen this before... Danny Lilithborne 00:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  That was the separate "Metal Gear timeline compared to reality", which coexisted along with this article. This article only lists facts mentioned in the games themselves, whereas the old timeline was full of speculation and analysis. This timeline isn't encyclopedic, but it's not nearly as bad as the other one. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. Combination 00:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Kids have too much spare time in school these days. The Kinslayer 11:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom, or transwiki if there's a suitable destination. --Alan Au 03:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep... although there really is no point voting anymore since I'm clearly outnumbered. But at least let me clear up a misconception about this article: most of the information in this timeline is not in-universe or original research. Most of the information are in fact taken from game manuals and supplemental documents that were supplied with the games. In particular, the manual for Metal Gear Solid 3 contains a detailed timeline from 1939 to 1964, while the manual for Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake contains a detailed timeline from 1986 to 1999. Other information was taken from the Previous Story sections of Metal Gear Solid and Metal Gear Solid 2, the Briefing section of Metal Gear Solid, and from the script in the Document of Metal Gear Solid 2. It's not necessary for this article to be deleted but it just requires a clean-up. All it needs is for us to remove most of the information that are "in-universe" and only keep the information that is found in manuals and supplemental documents. Jagged 85 08:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  But in that case, WP:NOT a dumping ground for instruction manual material, or a plot summary.. The Kinslayer 08:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  According to WP:NOT, Wiki-articles should "not include instructions or advice" from an instruction manual, but it can include "descriptions of people, places, and things" from an instruction manual. This article is not meant to be a plot summary, but just a collection of "descriptions of people, places, and things" taken from instruction manuals and various documents. That is why I am suggesting we clean-up this article rather than deleting it. Jagged 85 08:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  It's original research because it arranges bits and pieces of plot summary in an idiosyncratic way. It's plot summary because all of these are story or backstory points. It's in-universe because it describes the fictional universe as though it were a real universe, with no reference to the one in which you and I live. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not original research if the information is copied directly from manuals and documents giving specific years and timelines. It's not plot summary if it doesn't summarize the plot from the games themselves. As for the in-universe aspect, that could be eliminated with a clean-up, by describing each event from an out-of-universe perspective. For example, instead of simply saying "Person A was born in place B in the year C", we could instead say "The manual of game X reveals that the fictional character A was born in place B in the year C". Jagged 85 10:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  It's idiosyncratic arrangement of those plot details: the process of deciding which details from the primary sources to include and exclude is original research. It's plot summary by definition if you're recapping a story. The in-universe issue can be resolved with cleanup; the original research and plot summary problems cannot be. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  I suppose that's true, but it's a problematic way to define "original research" because by your definition, every Wikipedia article about a film or novel that includes a plot summary — which is virtually every Wikipedia article about a film or novel — should be stricken due to the "original research" objection. Cribcage 17:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Such a plot summary is going to substantially rely on the structure of the work itself, whereas this reassembles the story points into a new fashion. Ideally we should be using secondary sources even when writing plot summaries, though. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  The Metal Gear Solid 3 manual gives the timeline from 1939 to 1964 exactly in the same order as shown in this article. The Metal Gear Solid 3 ending gives the timeline from 1964 to 1971 exactly in the same order as this article. The Metal Gear 2 manual gives the timeline from 1986 to 1999 also in exactly the same order in this article. If this article was just a combination of these timelines, then that cannnot be considered "original research" because of the fact that it's a direct copy of several other pre-existing timelines from official sources. Again, I don't see the point in a deletion if a clean-up is all it requires. Jagged 85 13:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Then it's duplicating source material, another WP:NOT. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  If it's exactly the same as those sources like you say, then surely it's also a copyvio issue? The Kinslayer 13:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  That was quick. Well that was just a hypothetical if, not an absolute solution. I was not suggesting we copy anything exactly word-for-word, but was pointing out that there is no original research involved in taking information from official timelines. Well anyway, I've just been looking around for whether there are any policies on fictional timelines, and I doubt there is actually any policy against them, considering the fact that there are already a dozen other fictional timelines on Wikipedia which haven't been subjected to much controversy nor have they ever been nominated for deletion. Why should the Metal Gear timeline be treated any differently to the others? Like I said, this can be solved with a clean-up (and looking at other examples). Jagged 85 13:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  As with all articles, we'll later deal with those on the merits. In the case of this article, no amount of cleanup can make it not a substantive reproduction of source material or pure plot summary. We don't need a rule that specifically outlaws timelines in order to realize that this particular timeline is extremely problematic, in ways that cannot be fixed with cleanup. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  I find arguing that an article should be kept because similar articles haven't been nominated for deletion is a really poor arguement anyway. Maybe those other articles haven't been deleted simply because no-one has got round to nominating them? I know I'm certainly going to be giving them a close inspection afterwards. (And FYI, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Castlevania timeline should show you this article hasn't been specifically singled out. The Kinslayer 13:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it is just me but I still fail to see what's so extremely problematic about it (or any timeline for that matter) that cannot be fixed with a cleanup. If you do still wish delete this fictional timeline, then we might aswell delete all of them... but like Kinslayer ponted out, it looks like the Castlevania timeline has also been nominated, although the vast majority over there actually wish to keep it, which further complicates the issue of whether timelines are acceptable. Jagged 85 13:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's only been up a couple of days, and people haven't noticed it's up yet. Guaranteed now it's been mentioned here, more votes will appear. But trying to argue the merits of keeping an article based on a 2 day old unfinshed AfD of another article is shakier than the 'but these articles haven't been nominated' defense. The Kinslayer 13:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a defense, it's just a plain fact that the majority over there prefer to keep that article, at least for now. Anyway, I think I might have changed my mind after looking through Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Half-Life series storyline. Transwiki might actually be a better idea after all. Jagged 85 14:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Not notable. -- Sensenmann 16:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Postdlf 17:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete clearly it's what the people want eh MIB? †he Bread 06:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or Transwiki. If we can't keep it here, then how about a transwiki to wikibooks instead. Jagged 85 14:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. WP:NOT: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." Interrobamf 14:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Dammit, You beat me to it, I'd just posted the exact same thing but got edit conflict! But yes, that is exactly what I was going to say and so I stand by my delete opinion. The Kinslayer 14:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge any relevant/salvageable information into the main Metal Gear article if feasible or keep the article. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.