The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:00, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Muhakkima[edit]

Muhakkima (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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All content, except for the long quote, is the duplicate of Kharijites. The title itself is in the scope of the Kharijite article. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 21:49, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:03, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The article discusses the terms Muhakkima and al-Haruriyya and their relationship to Kharijites and Ibadis. It's in part a sub-article of Kharijites, but its scope also covers the recent Ibadi attempts at terminological reinterpretation. Great work on Kharijites, by the way. I'm glad this important article finally got a much-needed makeover. Eperoton (talk) 03:49, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments Eperoton. But Muhakkima and Haruriya are just other names of the Kharijites, as discussed with sources in the Kharijtie article. This articles discusses emergence of Kharijites, fight with Ali, their doctrines and in the end irrelevant Ibaiyya. All of these are present in the Kharijite article and Ibadiyya history, doctrines and relation with other Muslims are discussed properly. Having this article stay essentially means having two articles on the same subject.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 14:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The terms Muhakkima/Haruriya are derived from specific episodes in the early history of the Kharijite movement, and this is the basis for the Ibadi argument that they should be associated with the former but not the latter. Regardless of what one thinks of this argument, it appears in RSs and out there in the world. People search for a clarification of these terms, and the article provides quickly accessible definitions, rather than redirecting the terms to Kharijites, making the reader search for them in the body of text, and then wonder if they have other meanings. Aside from the Ibadi connection, Muhakkima is a sub-topic of Kharijites. One can consider rearranging some material for a cleaner sub-article relationship, but there's nothing wrong with this relationship in general. Eperoton (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Encycopedia of Islam considers the Muhakkima to be same as Kharijites, as do Wellhausen and Watt. And Ibadis considering them non-Kharijites has no bearing on this, academic historians do consider them Kahrijtie faction. See, for example Valerie Hoffman's Imagined communities that is cited in the Muhakkima as well as Kharijtie articles. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 04:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

EI2 doesn't consider them to be the same. It says "These first dissenters took the name al-Haruriya or al-Muhakkima... which is often applied by extension to the later Khawaridj also". So, it distinguishes the proper sense of these terms as referring to an early stage of Kharijite movement, and its use by extension as referring to Kharijites in general. Other sources (e.g., this one) also use the term to refer to a specific stage of the Kharijite movement. Even if this wasn't the case, I think we could still have an article about the terms, for the reason I mentioned, but in this case, the terms are used interchangeably only by some sources. Eperoton (talk) 04:39, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That does not justify separate article. All that stuff is essentially duplication of the origins section of the Kharijite article and offers nothing new. EI2 doesn't have a separate article on Muhakkima and it refers the Kharijite article on Muhakkima entry. They have articles on Ibadis, Sufris, Azarika, Najda, etc but not on Muhakkima. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 15:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't see a rationale for deletion here. The article is in part a sub-article of Kharijites, and in part contains other material specific to terminology. It's well sourced. It's not a copy. It may later be expanded with other material that's too specific to go into the parent article. Seems fine to me. Eperoton (talk) 03:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.