The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep (non-admin closure) with notability confirmed via consensus - and I have some nux vomica pellets for those who got heartburn from this discussion! :) Ecoleetage (talk) 00:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nelsons (homeopathy)[edit]

Nelsons (homeopathy) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

I have nominated Nelsons (homeopathy) for deletion as it appears to be an advertisement for a non-notable company and its products using poor sources. -- Fyslee / talk 15:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment Are you in the UK? I think I've seen their products frequently here, and google news has heard of them, quite a few of these results must be about this company [1]. The AfD tag isn't up is it? A prod tag is up. Sticky Parkin 17:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it worth noting that the user who nominated the article for deletion appears to have an anti-complimentary medicine belief (reading thier user page) and is therefore likely to have a negative view of the company and its products, which could be an influence on thier view of the article. I don't want to in any way appear to not be assuming good faith, but I think it relevent to the debate. Belief in the effacacy of Homeopathy should not be an influence on whether a particular company in this field is notable. To keep a spirit of fairness going, I'll also mention (and did at the point of article creation) that I work for the company and therefore have a potential conflict of interest. However, as stated there, I don't work in the marketing dept or similar and simply created the page as it seemed worth doing. I did attempt to avoid any commercial bias and I'm keen for other editors to take it over and add to it (including for example the negative but true comments added recently) --ThePaintedOne (talk) 21:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AGF. You can strike through the personal attack. The fact that I'm skeptical is why I noticed this (and why I notice any alt med) article, but that has nothing to do with my nomination. It looked like a poorly sourced advertisement using too many primary sources, and in spite of living in Europe for years I had never heard of the company. Boiron is the homeopathic company I think of when it comes to large and well known companies internationally, but I may be wrong. Whatever the case, if this article can be improved using better sources and more neutrally, so it doesn't look like a brochure (the list of products isn't all that necessary), then great. Improvement is always in order. I'm for including all notable subjects, and I've supported, edited, and ensured the inclusion of articles on subjects that I consider to be total nonsense. That's my view on NPOV editing, and I'm still a scientific skeptic ;-) While here, Wikipedia policies override my skepticism when editing. -- Fyslee / talk 05:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I almost edited the comments out altogether shortly after posting them as I do genuinely want to AGF and not make a personal attack, but have seen many examples in the past where a skeptcism over natural medicine is clearly more relevent to an editors perspective than a strict interpretation of wiki rules. Where in Europe do you live? Boiron are by far the biggest Homeopathy company on the continent, but they have hardly any presence in the UK. Conversely Nelsons homeopathy brands don't trade much outside of the UK, most international sales are of Rescue Remedy and the Bach Flower Remedies, the Nelsons name isn't generally known outside the UK though. I think if you google for Rescue Remedy or Bach Original Flower Remedies (Nelsons brand of the generic remedies), you'll find a great many stores selling it as it's a well known brand. You might also want to look for 'NelsonBach', which was a name used for a while a few years ago that is still common in international markets. Alternatively, go to www.boots.com (Boots the Chemists are the largest pharmacy chain in the UK) or www.tesco.com (Tesco are the largest retailer overall in the UK) and search for either Nelsons or Rescue Remedy and you'll get a range of products. Lastly, without wishing to make any assumptions about you or any other editor, if you are a man you are far less likely to be aware of Nelsons products anyway, the target demographic for Rescue Remedy is overwhemingly female and many men have never heard of it while thier partners have a bottle in their handbags. I had never heard of Nelsons before coming to work for them, then discovered my wife already had several of thier products in the medicine cabinet. This is in no way meant to be a sexist comment, its simply the reality of these products.

Incidentaly, if you live in Germany Rescue Remedy is not available on shelves due to German regulations, but if you ask over the counter many pharmacies will order it for you. This will be changing in the next month or so though as it has been re-classified as a foodstuff and can therefore be openly marketed in Germany for the first time.--ThePaintedOne (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that addresses the notabillity issue, the other is how the article is written. When I put it together I quite consciously tried to avoid a promotional tone and in particular left out most claims of effacacy, except where sourced, to try and make it non-advertorial. Most of the copy is about the history of the company and while the sources could be improved I believe they are at least good enough to support notability and the general content. There is an obituary and original article from a leading broadsheet newspaper in the UK (The Daily Telegraph), the results of a clinical trial and for the Bach connection a link to the Bach Centre itself (who are charitable foundation independant of Nelsons, although there is a commercial relationship) who represent the estate of Dr Bach himself. Someone has also just added a link to a negative article from the BBC. For a manufacturing company with a stable of brands, I don't think it unreasonable to include the products as that is what defines the company, especially internationally where the brands are better known than the parent company. e.g. if you look at the article for Kellogg, it has a similar list, as does The Coca-Cola Company. The article could doubtless be improved, but that doesnt mean it should just be deleted. Many articles are put on wikipedia in a less than ideal state then improved over time by multiple editors, thats the essence of most of the article grading systems in wikiprojects. I've held back from doing much more work from concern over COI. It would make far more sense for other editors to step in and do this. In the meantime I've simply tried to put enough content and sources in to keep the article from deletion. --ThePaintedOne (talk) 07:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep The AFD tag was not placed, the author was not notified. Moreover, research indicates that this is the leading company in this field and so obviously notable. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Afd tag and the user warning now placed. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Nelsons is a leading company in this field in the UK, with its products sold in all the major supermarket and pharmacy chains in the UK. It also sells products in 60 countries around the world, has also been in business for 160 years and counts a number of celebrities as clients, including the British royal family (until recently it held a royal warrant). I beleive this clearly meets the notabillity criteria. The article was previously put up for speedy deletion, which was turned down by an admin, since then more sources have been added, so it seems strange to nominate it again now. I believe there is a difference between 'could be improved' and 'should be deleted'.--ThePaintedOne (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I did a little Google search and came up with "A. Nelson & Co. is Europe's oldest and the UK's largest manufacturer of homeopathic medicines." from Hoovers.^[1]. That seems enough to establish notability. I do think the article is still a little too much of an advertisement ... short on history and long on list of products. But as noted above, needing improvement is different from needing deletion. --Mbilitatu (talk) 23:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have more sources I could add for the history, e.g. I recently came acrosss a printed article from the London Times published in around 1870, but I haven't had the time to dig out all the details for a cite (you cant exactly hyperlink to it!). However, I have tried to back off from editing the article recently as I want to try and get away from COI issues. To this end I've posted a request for assistance on the Alternative Medicine portal.--ThePaintedOne (talk) 07:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• keep I am not particularly pro-alternative therapies, but I am pro-keeping articles which are notable. I have added a source and a few lines about anti-malarial treatment,[2] for WP:NPOV. Sticky Parkin 01:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I beleive that if you search the BBC website you can find the original Newsnight article on this, which I think would be a primary source, rather than the Jamaca observer article which is a secondary since they copied from the BBC. I am trying to avoid editing the article at the moment to minimise the COI perspective here. Not to mention my colleagues wont thank me for bringing that out again--ThePaintedOne (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Nonsense company wasting other's money since Homeopathy is clearly a gibberish. But the company is notable per the references provided. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.