The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sam Walton (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please Make Me Lesbian! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Fails NFILM and the GNG, and violates WP:NOTDIR. NightMoves awards are marginally notable at best, were discounted by broad consensus as contributing to notability in discussions regarding PORNBIO, and fall well below the NFILM standard of "a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking". (The award is given by a non-notable local giveaway magazine passed out in strip clubs and porn stores). No independent sourcing, reliable or otherwise. Just a WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of castlists. PROD removed by article creator on the spurious basis that every notable film award meets the "major award for excellence" standard of NFILM. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 16:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The nominator's reasoning is impeccable, and I agree completely. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy close. If this article is considered to be up for AfD at all, it should be done by another user. This is not the first time that the nominator has nominated an article I have created for prod or AfD without notifying me; he claims that I said that I had requested not to be notified by him of such notices, but I have never said that about courtesy notices (and if you insist that I did, HW, provide a diff for when I supposedly said that or else stop breaking the rules).

But back to the subject at hand, as I stated in this edit summary, if the award is thought to be non-notable, then wouldn't the article for said award be nominated for deletion first? Otherwise, what's being said here is that the film shouldn't be here because it won a notable award. (In addition, WP:NFILM doesn't specifically mention anything about pornographic films.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:24, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• An award having a Wikipedia article doesn't necessarily make it a major award for purposes of WP:NFILM. The NightMoves award is not even considered major for the purposes of WP:PORNBIO. It would not pass NFILM even if won an AVN Award given AVN's incestuous relationship with the industry. • Gene93k (talk) 18:46, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment In 2002, the St. Petersburg Times (reliable source/independent of the subject) stated that the NightMoves Awards were "the third largest in the porn industry". Other porn industry award ceremonies held in 2002 include AVN, XRCO, Venus, and NINFA, which are all considered well-known/significant industry awards by consensus, satisfying PORNBIO ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5] & [6]). The St. Petersburg Times article doesn't mention what the two largest were, though I assume they were AVN and XRCO. Regardless, we've got these 4 well-known/significant industry awards and NightMoves is bigger than at least two of them. If you want to debate the specific award category, that's fine, but the ceremony is definitely well-known/significant. And Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, if you think you can use the "delete" outcome of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bunny Luv as a precedent for all AfD's for NightMoves recipients, you're wrong. That would be as dishonest as trying to use Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Helen Duval to argue that ALL Venus Award categories aren't notable. The consensus in both of those discussion was that the specific categories didn't meet PORNBIO because they were only awarded in two years, not that the ceremonies weren't notable. I'm not here to vote, I just want to point out that what is under discussion here is the award category, not the ceremony which is undoubtedly notable. Rebecca1990 (talk) 05:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Please be aware, Rebecca1990, that there is no requirement to notify the article creator of an AfD. Here is the relevant language: "While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion." Accordingly, your accusations of "breaking the rules" or disruptive editing are without merit.

You seem to be under the impression that if a notable topic writes about something, or gives an award to something, that this automatically confers notability on that other thing. Consider the Nazi hate newspaper Der Stürmer and the bizarre grocery store checkout line newspaper Weekly World News. Both newspapers are highly notable and worthy of scholarly study, and at the same time, both are utterly unreliable and absolutely worthless for establishing notability. You are confusing notability with reliability. Notable sources can be completely unreliable, and often are.

There is no consensus among editors that winning a NightMoves award confers notability on a porn film or performer. None. Lacking clearcut consensus, this article should be deleted. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I'm not the one who created an article for this film and complained for not being notified about it's AfD, that was Erpert. See? Secondly, I did not refer to the St. Petersburg Times as a "reliable source/independent of the subject" simply because it is notable enough for a WP article. That is not how I determined that it is a reliable source. If you actually read the WP article for the St. Petersburg Times AKA Tampa Bay Times, you'll see that it has won numerous Pulitzer Prizes, which proves that it is reliable. I also didn't say that St. Petersburg Times writing an article on the NightMoves Award automatically makes it notable (I know that WP:GNG requires multiple reliable sources in order to be notable, a criteria which NightMoves satisfies by the way), I cited a specific quote from the article stating that NightMoves was the porn industry's third largest awards ceremony. The article was written in 2002 and we have at least four other awards which were also given out that year and are by consensus, notable. I was just pointing out that it is ridiculous not to consider NightMoves notable when there are awards smaller than NightMoves which we do consider notable. Rebecca1990 (talk) 06:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for getting the comments of two editors confused. Maybe it has something to do with the indenting. The first part was intended for you, Erpert. There is no doubt that the Saint Petersburg Times is a reliable source, but they did not write about this porn film series. I accept for the sake of discussion that the NightMoves awards may be notable, but I do not agree that winning that award confers notability in itself on either porn films or porn performers. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Really? The very first criterion of PORNBIO says that winning a notable award is exactly what confers notability ("[the subject] has won a well-known and significant industry award"); moreover, you just acknowledged yourself that the NightMoves Award is notable. If certain categories of NightMoves are questioned on determining notability, that should be saved for another discussion; and as I hinted at above, that should be determined first. (BTW, if you think that my "accusations" of the nominator are without merit, um...you did read the diff I posted above, didn't you?) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 16:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It should be obvious to all experienced editors that "notable" is a far lower threshold than "well known and significant". For example, a one term Ohio state legislator who served in 1843-1844 is notable according to WP:POLITICIAN but certainly not "well known and significant". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:35, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So the subject isn't well-known and significant because it isn't notable right now? You might want to read WP:NTEMP. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}

Please try to understand what I actually wrote, Erpert. My example one term 19th century Ohio state legislator is notable forever per our notability guidelines for politicians, and ought to have a biography here. That does not mean that he is "well known and significant", which is a far higher standard. Whether or not NightMoves is "well known and significant" as a porn award is a matter for consensus among interested editors. I say "no". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Um...notability for anything on Wikipedia is permanent once said notability has been established. But let's end this here and get back to the topic at hand. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 06:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

---

The AfD's I cited above determined that the AVN, XRCO, Venus, and NINFA awards are not only notable, but also well-known/significant enough for their recipients to pass WP:PORNBIO. NightMoves is bigger than two of those awards, so it is also well-known/significant. Like I said, what is under discussion here is the award category, not the entire ceremony. Rebecca1990 (talk) 22:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom - Amazon, IMDB and IAFD are not sources and should never be used as such! .... The other sources aren't that much better either!, Google brings up nothing to confirm notability, Fails NFILM & GNG. –Davey2010^Talk 16:25, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails GNG and NFILM as the nominator states. Run of the mill porn without significant coverage by independent reliable sources. None cited in the article. None found in independent searches. • Gene93k (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I think we need to slow down here a bit and not try to be so fast & loose with the facts. AVN has no more of an "incestuous relationship with the industry" that it covers than the Academy Awards do with the industry that they serve. I am not aware of any string of recent AfDs that has blanketly determined that the "NightMoves award is not even considered major for the purposes of WP:PORNBIO". "Amazon" is not being used as a source in the article under consideration here, and the sources using IAFD & IMDb are for nothing out of the ordinary (release dates, director credits, running times, etc.).

The lesbian adult film series in question here won a NightMoves Award in one of the only categories that it likely was qualified to win an award (Best All-Girl Release (Fan's Choice)) for...it is yet another fan-based award, which might be considered to be less significant than this ceremony's Editor's Choice Award. There are surely some more significant award categories at the NightMoves Award, and there are likely even less significant award categories at that award ceremony. The relevant standard here under NFILM though is: "The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking ... Standards have not yet been established to define a major award, but it's not to be doubted that an Academy Award, or Palme D'or, Camera D'or, or Grand Prix from Cannes would certainly be included. Many major festivals such as Venice or Berlin should be expected to fit our standard as well." Guy1890 (talk) 02:51, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Before nominations were removed from PORNBIO, that guideline explicitly stated that the FAME awards were included. The only thing removed from PORNBIO regarding the FAME awards was nominations, but only because ALL nominations for ALL porn awards were excluded from PORNBIO. FAME awards, as long as they are wins, are still considered well-known/significant awards and they are fan voted. A Fan's Choice win is NOT less significant than an Editor's Choice win. Rebecca1990 (talk) 05:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, there is no consensus that winning a NightMoves award confers notability on a porn actor or a porn film. I will continue to oppose that as a pass to notability. Vigorously. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, it seems to work just fine for Keisha Grey and Jillian Janson. Anyway, if I'm missing the discussion where consensus was reached that NightMoves wins don't count, please direct me to it. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 06:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other stuff exists. I will put those other articles you mentioned on my watch list and chime in if they are nominated for deletion. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:33, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that you didn't respond to the second part of my statement. Simply saying that a consensus was reached isn't enough; you should be able to prove it. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 07:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please try to understand what I actually wrote, Erpert. I mean what I say, and nothing more. I never said that there was a clear consensus that winning a NightMoves award does not confer notability. Instead, I said that consensus in favor of that is lacking. The burden is upon those editors who favor the simple winning of a NightMoves award as an assurance of notability to build consensus for that. I will oppose any such consensus. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete (for now)/Userfy per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Girlvana, which established that a minimum of two different films within a pornographic film series must win an award for Wikipedia to have an article for the whole series. Girlvana won two AVN Awards for "Best All-Girl Release", the exact same award as Please Make Me Lesbian!, but from a different ceremony. Although this is a notable (both the ceremony & category) award, multiple wins are required. The series has won only one award at the moment, but that award does contribute to it's notability. It just needs to win one more award before we can restore the article. Rebecca1990 (talk) 06:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, that AfD doesn't establish that; a single user suggested that and no one either agreed or disagreed with it. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 07:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.