The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. —Mizu onna sango15^Hello! 20:52, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rahul Raj[edit]

Rahul Raj (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Falls under WP:NOT#NEWS Beagel (talk) 19:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nominator. —Cyclonenim (talk · contribs · email) 19:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Per WP:NOT#NEWS, an article about the incident in question which mentions this person may be acceptable, but I don't see any notability of this individual outside of the one event. --Nick—^Contact/_Contribs 19:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have changed back the article title from Rahul Raj to Rahul raj encounter. Rahul raj encounter is an important event. Manoj nav (talk) 05:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect to Raj Thackeray per above. Themfromspace (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:BLP1E. I don't really agree with merger on Raj Thackeray since there has been no direct evidence of such relation. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 21:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: As per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOT#NEWS, I have changed back the article title from Rahul Raj to Rahul raj encounter. Rahul raj encounter is an important event, which has led to many debates in Bihar as well as India in general and has led to resignation of many MPs. The article is under construction, and the political debates would be included soon. I don't support a merger because it would unnecessarily lengthen the parent articles, as the topic is expended. Manoj nav (talk) 04:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: The Rahul Raj encounter case was an important event, and watershed, in the reactions of Biharis to the events in Maharashtra; from passive to violent. It was the first filmed armed hijack of a bus in Mumbai.. Significantly, as reported by the media, Bihari politicans attented the funeral of Rahul Raj, despite claims of the police of his attempts to muder a politican. His body was brought to Patna was the IG of Bihar. I say, keep this entry as it;

• important event in Mumbai. important media event realted to MNS campaign and Bihari reactions/
• first highjacking of a bus in Mumbai ever
• first filmed highjacking in India ever
• first time a middle class youth from Patna reacted to events that did not effect his social strata
• first time Bihari politicans united against events in maharashtra
• led to racist attacks on innocent Marathis in north India

All in all a sad story, but one that needs to be outlined carefully.Not-Ashamed (talk) 13:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Are there sources that provide verification for the multiple "firsts" that you mentioned here? ^LeaveSleaves _talk 13:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• It would be better to discuss the multiple "firsts" verifiability in the article discussion page, rather then in an Afd thread. Manoj nav (talk) 13:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The issue is already covered at Racism faced by the Bihari community in India. Docku: What up? 13:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I support for a separate article, otherwise it would unnecessarily lengthen the parent article as the topic expends. A brief summery of the topic should be included in the reaction section of the article Racism faced by the Bihari community in India. Manoj nav (talk) 16:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Please read/ Watch

On Political unity and Sub Nationalism http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&issueid=78&task=view&id=19042&sectionid=4&Itemid=1 (India Today)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYFfESiLrg For the first time ever, Mumbai city has seen a shootout inside a public bus. At around ten on Monday morning, a passenger shot at another inside a BEST bus. The gunman was later shot dead by the police. He has been identified as Rahul Raj. He boarded the double-decker bus that runs between Andheri and Kurla. (NDTV site on YouTube)

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081104/jsp/nation/story_10060017.jsp Marathi students at Mahanand Mission Harijan PG College in the capital’s satellite town were attacked, allegedly by an Uttar Pradesh student leader and his goons. Police sources in Ghaziabad confirmed the victims stated in their FIR that the attackers “mentioned Rahul Raj and Dharam Dev” while kicking them in their hostel rooms. Telegraph, Kolkata

Not-Ashamed (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The person has been shot unlawfully and case is being investigated. It is on TV channels. Tell me how I can prevent a delete? --Kokar (talk) 15:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Confirmed This user has double voted. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 01:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment:I think there is a need to evaluate the necessity of a separate article here and evaluate the notability of temporary media hype generated around a single event. It is necessary to consider if there are any long term effects of the event; particularly in light details or any sort of investigation of the event or more protest/comments from non-political organizations. Otherwise the article would only comprise only of political reactions, after effects and other such things that are connected to the event.

The "firsts" mentioned above should be verified here since they are necessary in deciding notability of the subject as a stand-alone article. Otherwise, I would suggest we follow Docku's advice of merging the article with other related article. Regarding the sources mentioned above, you'd need a better hard-coded source for such claim than a Youtube channel. Plus political unity on this topic can hardly be considered as a groundbreaking fact. Has there been an event against Biharis where one of the political party from Bihar protested and other did not? ^LeaveSleaves _talk 15:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NDTV (also available on youtube) is a highly respected Indian News channel. I am sure others can verify that. They utilise Youtube as part of their internet strategy. Telegraph and India Today are high noted and respected Indian paper and mangazine. I am sure Indians here can also verify that. I hope that clears matters.Not-Ashamed (talk) 15:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of reliability of your sources. I'm merely questioning the medium in first case and significance of content in the other. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 16:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Notashamed provided those links to make people aware of the incident. Many a time users vote their opinion on wiki even without knowing much about the topic. It could unnecessarily lead to deletion of genuine contributions as it has happened here. Manoj nav (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep: Rahul was shot by Mumbai Police, camera moments before killing were shown live on all news channels, 3 State chief ministers involved gave sharp reactions, an official statement issued by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and probably an investigation by CBI is going to happen. The killing is at center stage of a much debated controversy brewing up in India. You think this article should be deleted? When was the last time a killing of single person by Police prompted the Prime Minister of India to intervene? Doesn't this very single fact show the utmost importance of this incidence and it's political implications? School shoot-outs in USA and Canada by psycho, drug infested, maniacs which have no impact later on move to become FAs on Wikipedia while an Indian article on shootout with tremendous political repercussions is up for deletion? Rahul Raj was asking to meet Raj Thackeray. He is not Raj Thackeray so no merge needed. His encounter (Rahul Raj encounter) deserves a separate article. Look at the incident, it's political implications and title before considering deletion. Just because the sources are all news sources or article is written as news doesn't mean NOT#NEWS apply here. Never should an article be deleted because of poor content or style but should be judged by the title. Content can always be improved. Title is more than 100% deserving here. --GPPande talk! 07:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. --GPPande talk! 07:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete -- A bio on Rahul Raj is WP:1E. The incident on the other hand is notable. The appropriate place for this information would be in a =fallout= section of the 2008 attacks on North Indians article. =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Going by the same logic why do we need an article on 27 September 2008 Delhi blast. The content can be included in the title - Terrorism in India or 2008 Bomb blasts in India. Why do we need separate article for each bomb blasts? Why not put them all together in the article - Attack on Parliaments, Mumbai Train Blast, Ahmedabad Bomb Blast. Manoj nav (talk) 08:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:1E applies to people. Terrorism in India is not just about blasts, the article details a summary of terrorism in India. The Rahul Raj incident is a direct fall out and response of the anti-north Indian campaign that we saw last month, and more suited in an integrated article, since actual content will barely exceed three paragraphs. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The article is no longer a biography. It's Rahul Raj encounter. I believe length of an article is never a criteria for a separate article, but the importance of the subject. Manoj nav (talk)

The incident is a direct fallout of a greater incident. We can opt for merging if the content is too little. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The content wouldn't be too little. It would be atleast more then 27 September 2008 Delhi blast, as the article expends. A brief summery of the event have already been mentioned in many of the related parent articles. Keeping in mind the importance of the event and also the space it would require, it is better to have a separate article. Manoj nav (talk) 09:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The articles 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra and Racism faced by the Bihari community in India are already too lengthy and are slowly becoming unreadable. Manoj nav (talk) 09:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Nichalp: The article title has been changed from Rahul Raj to Rahul Raj encounter. This is now bigger than a bio. As I have mentioned earlier, merge with Thackeray article is not in question here. 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra is already such a huge article with more than 100k in size that it needs to be broken in smaller articles. So merge with it is also overruled. I don't understand - how can a prominent shooting incident like this does not deserve to exist on WP? What is the problem? Which rule of WP states shooting incidents are no-no. I think Delete vote above should be reconsidered.. --GPPande talk! 12:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is it encyclopedic and not newsy? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep and support rename to Rahul Raj encounter : Not essentially because articles like Joe the Plumber, Sean Bell shooting incident, 2005 Denver police officer shooting 2006 Manchester, New Hampshire police shooting Rigoberto Alpizar ( see also Category:People shot dead by police , Category:Unarmed people shot by police , Category:Alleged police brutality in the United States) etc do exists in Wikipedia ( I am aware of WP:OSE! ). Nevertheless, Rahul Raj encounter encounter is the most appropriate title and the article should be rewritten to this happening than the person. The article is well referenced and covered by all media and newspapers in India. A simple google search for Rahul Raj encounter gives over 66,900 results, which proves how the happening is notable and verifiable. -- Tinu Cherian - 05:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I am helping to rewrite the article Rahul Raj encounter as it is should be more of a article relating to the incident than the biography of a person . I have just started and lots of work has to done. I am researching on the incident so I may take some time to rebuilt it to fit Wiki standards. As far I am concerned, the article fits our verifiable and notable policies and should be included in Wikipedia.-- Tinu Cherian - 11:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly review the AFD again based on my changes in an attempt to make it into a NPOV and Wiki style article based on the references -- Tinu Cherian - 14:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still say this doesn't meet WP:NOT#NEWS. Are there any sources that arent from newspapers or other news sources that discuss the encounter in detail? Themfromspace (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What sources do you look forward too? Would you like to AFD the following pages in the today's mainpage ? 26 November 2008 Mumbai attacks , 2008 Santa Catarina floods Guinea-Bissau legislative election, 2008 etc ?. The policies are here to guide us to common sense and do What is good for Wikipedia ! -- Tinu Cherian - 05:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep - per Tinu Cherian, if school shoot outs in US can be on WP, why can't 'lesser mortals' in India? (me too aware of WP:OSE!). Also, Tinu Cherian did a good-quality work here. Renamed & copy-edited. I don’t find any issues at the present and only some minor cleanups may be done. --Avinesh  T  06:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Seems notable to me. There seems to be good coverage in media regarding this matter. It would be appropriate to rename the article to "Rahul Raj encounter" and describe the encounter itself (in a larger context), than just the person. --vi5in^[talk] 17:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Don't see how this was NOTNEWS? Brainfart. What I meant is that I don't see how it's just NOTNEWS. I think it's important in a larger context: Sources. --vi5in^[talk] 17:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. —-- Tinu Cherian - 07:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. —-- Tinu Cherian - 07:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Yes, Vivin, it has already been moved to Rahul Raj encounter and copy-edited to make it an incident article than a BIO article -- Tinu Cherian - 04:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: forgettable one-event with limited notability. Dubious list of firsts provided. --Deepak D'Souza 05:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.