The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This isn't a very strong keep given some of the arguments, but I think the discussion has worked its way into a consensus that this is notable and worth keeping.

On a personal note, there are some good examples of editors earnestly working hard here, which always brightens my morning to see. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ram Saran Verma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Simply does not meet WP:GNG. Was deprodded without rationale or improvement. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 09:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 09:40, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Padma Shri awardees are usually deemed to be notable people, having fulfilled the criteria of WP:ANYBIO point 1. There also exists a good number of sources in regional language sources - [1] and [2] in Rajasthan Patrika, [3] in News18 India, [4] by Aaj Tak has a section on him - all of which were published before he got the Padma Shri. His award was also covered in Rajasthan Patrika ([5]), in News18 India ([6]), in Dainik Jagran ([7]), in Oneindia ([8]). A farmer in the heartlands of rural India is not bound to get anymore press coverage from the mainstream English media in India, and therefore I believe this should stay. Jupitus Smart 17:27, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Draftify. If the Padma Shri award does make a BLP notable on WP then draftity (as one source and one line is not enough; the article needs more work). If the Padma Shri award is not sufficient to make a BLP notable on WP then delete, as I cannot find any other sources that would prove GNG. Britishfinance (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Expanded. Probably should stay now. Jupitus Smart 19:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Unfortunately the new text adds noting new of real notabililty beyond the Padma Shri prize (e.g. the guy is looking after 150 acres??). If getting this Padma Shri award is not a WP notable event (I have no idea how to assess that), then this is still a delete. Britishfinance (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I'm not sure where anyone would think the 4th highest civilian award denotes notability. The usual criteria is the highest award, or multiple receipts of the 2nd highest award, neither of which apply to this individual.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 00:27, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I tend to agree with you. The Padma Shri article says that as of 2017, 2,840 people have won the award. The List of Padma Shri award recipients (2010–2019) article implies that a lot of the winners have their own WP article, but scanning through, their notability seems justified. Britishfinance (talk) 01:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nomination since subject fails WP:GNG and WP:NPERSON. The subject is not some award but a person. -The Gnome (talk) 10:57, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or rather, Strong keep per WP:GNG sources listed by Jupitus above. Clearly, Western-oriented editors need to invest some effort in clicking on Hindi news media links and using Google translate. I'm surprised that none of the delete !voting editors even bothered to take that effort. Lourdes 13:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I did, and all I got were references to a rural farmer (in contrast to several other winners of the Padma Shri award, who have their own WP articles and are obviously notable). The only thing which has been presented on this AfD as being notable, is that he won the Padma Shri award. His criteria for winning the award (helping rural farming) throws up nothing additionally material to add to his notability (as far as I can see). If a farmer in the UK won a The Duke of Edinburgh's Award for improving crop yields and a few UK regional papers/one major paper covered it, it would get deleted. I am open-minded on this case (as I have shown above), but it would be great to get some facts (outside of him winning this award), and/or clarification that winning this award makes the subject inherently notable. Britishfinance (talk) 15:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Read my comments below. You need to use Google Translate. At least four of the sources provided by Jupitus are absolutely significant and not about the award. Lourdes 02:24, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Don't expect something out of the blue from a farmer in the rural hinterlands. He got the award for his contributions towards promoting the use of technology in farming and his activism in spreading the technical know-how to fellow farmers. Please read through WP:NOTINHERITED to understand why it is not applicable here, and why WP:ANYBIO specifically allows for winners of notable awards to have articles. The Padma Awards are handed out to a select few in various sectors, based on the nominations received from the different states of India. To be among the 112 Padma Awardees, from the 50,000 odd nominees in a country of over a billion plus people is an achievement in itself. As demonstrated above he has however been receiving press even before he got this award, fulfilling the criteria of continuous coverage. What however needs to be noted is that a farmer receiving the Padma Shri is not a matter of interest for the mainstream media in India as it does not have much news value, but I believe that Wikipedia should be above such biases. And as always, the other Indian editors who frequent WP:AFD are in hiding for fear of damaging their future WP:RFA's. Bah. Jupitus Smart 16:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. This is about the fact-base forWP:GNG. As I have asked above - is getting this award sufficient to make someone inherently notable on WP? If that is the case, then he is a keep, but I saw no evidence that this is so? Having read the WP article on this award (several times), there are concerns that not all awards have been merited. He could be the local plumber, but if he is getting mentioned in major sources, then he has notability. This guy is not. Do you see the concern? I can only go on what I can see. I (despite being called otherwise), have tried to translate sources but I get nothing significant. However, you have the knowledge of this area, so help us understand if this award should make someone inherently notable (maybe we could list it into the GNG guidelines), and/or, give us at least one major RS that nails his notability (I could not find any I would regard as a major RS). Sorry, but I hope that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 16:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment What would you consider as a major WP:RS. He has multiple articles about him on major newspapers (for context Dainik Bhaskar which has an article on him, sits on top of the List of newspapers in India by circulation as is Rajasthan Patrika which is 8th on the list). There is a clear case of WP:GNG being met even without me having to harp on the notability of being a Padma awardee. If you are insinuating at being mentioned in an English language publication that you may be familiar with for a newspaper to qualify as WP:RS, then I am afraid that I don't have any to show, apart from the few paragraphs on Outlook and India Today. Jupitus Smart 17:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - all of the press is about him winning the award, so WP:BIO1E would apply.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 22:33, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Honestly, I consider your comment of "all of the press is about him winning the award" stereotypical of the English-bias. I'm not calling it irresponsible, because you probably are writing this as you don't have Google Translate. If you click on the links provided by Jupitus, reliable sources all, at least four do not talk about the award and discuss the farmer at length. So please don't give such comments unless you've done some work investigating. This is an encyclopaedia where we have global readers (the maximum growth is from India) and such articles of notable personalities adds to the repertoire. You need to move out of the English bias in your future deletion discussions. Lourdes 02:23, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment, back to the award, ("come on coola, not again!":)), some editors suggest that as it is the 4th highest civilian award that is not high enough ("The usual criteria is the highest award, or multiple receipts of the 2nd highest award.."), and that as there are 2840 recipients that is too many for it to be notable ie. hitting the WP:ANYBIO bar, i note that the CBE is the 3rd highest award British award and is generally seen as meeting notability, also 2840 recipients out of a population of over 1.2billion (1/400,000) looks significant to me, if there are enough sources covering Verma, then he also meets WP:BASIC, there is, so he does, keep. Coolabahapple (talk) 01:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I have edited the article to further draw out what I think are the notable items from Jupitus Smart's new references. Once half of me still feels that his noterity is at a state-level (not country). However, Jupitus has provided refs from a range of mainstream Indian RS-sources (which is getting to GNG), that span a range of years (not just at award time), and the Padma Shri award seems material, and Coolabahapple has made some good points. At this stage, I will leave it to others to make the final decision either way. Britishfinance (talk) 01:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I thank you for the editing and appreciate the npov judgement about the individual. Lourdes 09:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Lourdes: thanks for that - appreciated. Britishfinance (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The Padma Shri by itself does not mean the subject is inherently notable. Compared to the top 3 civilian awards, this has been awarded to quite a lot of people. However, for people who are awarded Padma Shri, it is highly likely that they have attracted some amount of attention at local level (district/state)--DreamLinker (talk) 16:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment There is some coverage in the regional Hindustan Times (Lucknow edition). I have some snippets below

1. [9] A digital harvest for reaping profits, Hindustan Times (Lucknow) 1 Jan 2016 Richa Srivastava. Snippet LUCKNOW: Ram Saran Verma, a leading farmer of Barabanki, wakes up to the beep of his mobile phone each day. The rates of the day’s green grocery market drop into his inbox and the planning for the day begins...Verma, recipient of multiple awards, including the prestigious Innovative Farmer Award, by the department of science and technology...A hi-tech farmer, Verma already has his own website, which is regularly updated with new experiments carried out by him in cultivation of banana, potato and tomato...It is for his innovative farming tricks that a number of other cultivators of the area too adopted his style and have grown manifold profits. The article is entirely about him. It is somewhat of an interview as well, but it definitely shows that he has received attention
2. [10] Hi-tech farmer gets a pat on the back, Hindustan Times (Lucknow) 2 Dec 2012 HT Correspondent Snippet LUCKNOW: Ram Saran Verma, a hi-tech farmer from Daulatpur, Barabanki whose innovative farming transformed his life, was felicitated by the Lucknow Management Association for his achievements. LMA conferred Verma with the ‘Creativity Innovation’ award at its convention on Saturday. From an ordinary kisan to a hi-tech farmer... The language is a bit PR-ish, but shows that he has received attention in 2012 as well.
3. [11] Fibre-rich red banana debuts in UP Hindustan Times (Lucknow) 29 Dec 2015 HT Correspondent Red banana, a rich source of protein, fibre and low on sugar content and grown mostly in south India, has been successfully cultivated in the state...said Ram Saran Verma, the farmer who experimented with the new variety. Saran planted about 1000 saplings of the new variety in Daultapur village of Barabanki way back in 2012.... Short article about a new type of banana cultivated by him

In Hindi there is quite a lot of coverage about him (like for example [12] from Economic Times Hindi). I am usually cautious with Hindi sources as many local newspapers are susceptible to sensational journalism. However, the Hindi sources linked in this AfD are the better and more reliable ones.--DreamLinker (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep based on the above references. I am convinced by the fact that he has received coverage for an extended period of time. While some of the coverage (particularly in Hindi) seems to be a bit of marketing, it doesn't deny that he has genuinely received interest. The Padma Shri means his efforts have been recognised.--DreamLinker (talk) 18:42, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per the Padma Shri, which, if anything, passes WP:ANYBIO. In the year that the subject was given that award it was given to less than one in 12 million Indians, which makes in a much more exclusive award than, say, a British knighthood. It doesn't matter how many awards in India are even more exclusive. And it has been suggested above that his notability might only be state-wide rather than national. I don't accept that because this is a national award rather than a state award, but even if I did he would be notable in a state which would, if it was independent, be the seventh most populous country in the world. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.