The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Singularity 03:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rene Reinmann (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Non-notable city council member, who received 129 votes. Attack page that fails WP:BLP.

His membership of the Tallinn City Council does not make him notable. His career of petty crimes does not meet WP:NOTABILITY either. The combination really does not make him notable. He might be mentioned in an article on the Tallinn City Council, if such article ever existed. As is stands now, the article is clearly an attack page. Non-notable people have a right to privacy, even criminals. They do not deserve their misconduct spashed on the front page of Wikipedia.

I was thinking of nominating this for AfD the first time I saw it, but because I have refrained from editing anything that User:Digwuren is involved with, I did not react early. The on-going arbitration at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren makes me even more unwilling to touch any of this crap. Placing this attack on the Front page, in the WP:DYK section is however a step too far. I request that this article be removed from DYK ASAP and deleted. -- Petri Krohn 05:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC) P.S. Per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Articles about living people notable only for one event this article could be moved to Tallinn City Council. ("Cover the event, not the person.") I would prefer the article history be deleted, but if someone wants to do the move, I will not object. -- Petri Krohn 06:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Petri, why do you call it an attack page? Can just sourced facts be an attack? As it is in WP:DYK, it is clear that an administrator - or several - reviewed the article and saw it as acceptable.

Also, as for notability, Rene Reinmann is probably the most mentioned name in Estonian politics at the moment, having been lying about his past and education - and the follow-up of Keskerakond trying to protect him almost at any cost. If you want English sources, then the Baltic Business News ran a story about him, [1], available for subscribers. Sander Säde 05:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which "only one event" would that be? The one when he ran a major electricity meter clock theft ring, which was covered in media? Or the one where he ran for the City Council? Or the one where he lied about his education? Or the one where it became public? Or the one where it was covered up? Digwuren 09:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, then, there's the issue that Tallinn City Council has a seven-century history. Shoving this incident into that article, with temporal coverage of less than a third of one percent, would be a clear case of WP:UNDUE. Considering Petri Krohn's history at Wikipedia, making such a suggestion is more than a little interesting. Digwuren 13:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy keep. Number of received votes is totally irrelevant. Article is well written and fully cited - WP:BLP does not mean that Wikipedia must avoid writing anything that might displease the living person or his supporters, it means that content must be fully verifiable. And in this case, the author has been extremely careful with facts, having two or even three sources behind every claim. Note that article was also on frontpage as WP:DYK. Sander Säde 05:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Other than the fact that the guy's a thug who's a councillor which in itself isn't notable, most of the references seem to come from the same newspaper written by the same editor. Just because someone can write a lot about a little is no reason to include it in an encyclopaedia. --WebHamster 06:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that the author used articles from one newspaper just because it was easiest. But, Eesti Ekspress, SL Õhtuleht, Äripäev, Postimees, Delfi, Reporter (TV) all run one or more stories about him. All mentioned sources are among the biggest media outlets in Estonia, there are dozens of minor sources not worth searching or mentioning. If Digwuren has time, he could add sources from other places then Eesti Päevaleht. Sander Säde 06:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to that, I felt that since Eesti Ekspress was responsible for digging up the whole story, they should get the most prominent credit. Digwuren 11:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep but with strict adherence to WP:BLP. The attention given to him in media "probably" makes him notable. However, I just removed the section with all the offenses he's been convicted of. It's overkill, superfluous, and I think it violates BLP policy. Lilac Soul ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 06:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The section is directly sourced to relevant newspaper coverage, some offences even to court rulings. I believe this satisfies BLP requirements, and will restore the section accordingly. Digwuren 09:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Sander Sade. — xDanielx ^T/_C 06:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy keep: Definitely notable person, Estonian media run this person on front pages several times. As of criminal records, it is relevant as THIS is what makes the person notable. Accusations of attack page are as ridiculous as would be listing Osama bin Laden for deletion because it were attack page. Suva 07:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy keep: The whole nomination seems to be based on the fact that nominator does not like the content.--Alexia Death the Grey 08:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy keep. As pointed out above, the person involved is thoroughly covered in Estonian news media, and the offences listed are matched to WP:RS, some even with online copies of court rulings. (Unfortunately, earlier Estonian court rulings are not online, and a few years ago, the Ministry of Justice migrated to a new infosystem that does not support linking to court rulings.)

The 129-vote victory is not actually extreme; it's an artefact of Estonia's proportional voting systems. Most parties have up to a dozen Very Known People as their flagships, and then the Long Tail. In Reinmann's case, the flagship was Vilja Savisaar. Extreme victories, in context of local elections, are usually considered those that take less than about 20 votes. Digwuren 09:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It might be appropriate to close this AFD early, under WP:SNOW. Digwuren 13:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - first off, speedy keep is inappropriate when editors have argued to delete, as above, especially when the reasons presented are as well-considered as WebHamster's. Second, editors seem to be forgetting that media references do not equate to notability. Pedantically quoting from the policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Thus, while he may have been the object of some press attention, I fail to see what, exactly, is notable here per WP:BIO. Frankly, shrilly asserting speedy keep and hiding behind WP:RS instead of instancing something that asserts notability is a poor argument. Eusebeus 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Hiding behind WP:RS"? Watch me throwing a snowball in your general direction! Digwuren 16:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Notable figure is that country, has several sources and significant coverage in that country for his criminal activities.--JForget 22:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. As I see it, the article is about a controversial politician who's attracted interest partly because of his criminal record and partly because of his claimed educational background. I don't speak Estonian, so I'm taking it on faith that the sources cited in fact say what they're claimed to (the article creator speaks it, so it's a fair bet), so BLP doesn't seem to be a concern. The sources appear to be from a third-party source, so that's taken care of. Is the man in fact notable as a result of all of this controversy? I'd say so. He and his associates may desperately wish that he wasn't, but he is. After all, it's not every day this kind of thing happens. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian is my native language and I can confirm, that article contains what the sources say...--Alexia Death the Grey 06:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I need, then. No risk of calling someone dirty names without sources, then. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If he was a career politican, he would be a public figure and potentially notable. Most city council members are however not politicians, although they are involved in local politics. -- Petri Krohn 10:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you would have actually looked even the headlines of the sources - as you understand Estonian - you'd have noticed that they call him a politician. Unless you want to dispute those sources, then he is a politician according to the cited and perfectly wiki-valid sources. 10:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Sander Säde

I'm not sure whether it matters if he's a "career politician" or some guy who happens to be (or have been, rather) on the city council. What matters for me is that he was elected and then turned out to have a criminal record and have fudged his educational background. By being elected, he became someone in the public eye, and he would have done likewise had he been in any one of several hundred other jobs. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, even if it *did* matter, this one hasn't held a job as customarily understood for years. His position in the famous elections' biographical form is marked as "project manager" in a company his father owns. The father, as a matter of fact, belongs to the same city council, is a Chernobyl liquidation veteran (with considerable resulting handicap), and played a rôle in the balance-of-power mechanics. Digwuren 22:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep There are enough reliable sources on this person to show that he passes WP:BIO and anything negative appears to be well sourced to satisfy any BLP concerns. Davewild 17:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Tallinn is the capital & largest city, so its city council is notable. DGG (talk) 06:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.