The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shun On Estate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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I haven't been able to conduct full WP:BEFORE checks for this, however, given that there's been 2 similar AfDs (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cascades, Hong Kong, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Easeful Court), and its notability has been subject to dispute among new page reviewers and established editors, I'm bringing up this here for a more definitive outcome. MarioGom (talk) 13:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture and Hong Kong. MarioGom (talk) 13:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Nominator openly states they have not conducted a full WP:BEFORE and also did not mention two similar AfDs that ended in keep and no consensus (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Highland Park (Hong Kong), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tin Ching Estate) so I don't feel there is a valid rationale here. NemesisAT (talk) 13:56, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for bringing up these two AfDs. I initially mentioned the ones that I skimmed from the discussion going on in the article history. Best, MarioGom (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    No problem NemesisAT (talk) 14:45, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • NemesisAT (talk · contribs), would you review the sources I posted below and expand your support for retention to be based on those sources if you agree those sources establish notability? The closing admin may not give much weight to an argument that is not based on sources. Thank you, Cunard (talk) 05:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Commented below, thanks NemesisAT (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect' to Shun Lee#Shun On Estate other editors may be able to find additional usable sources in Chinese that I am unable to, in which case I would change my !vote, but based on the current sourcing, my searches in English, and cursory searches in Chinese, I don't see GNG coverage. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Articles from The Kung Sheung Daily News (ordered chronologically from 1978 to 1984):
     1. "房屋委會批准清水灣道順安邨第二期建屋圖則" [Housing Authority approves housing plans for Phase 2 of Clear Water Bay Road's Shun On Estate]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1978-06-12. p. 6. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     2. "清拆秀茂坪木屋，建第二期順安邨" [Demolition of wooden houses in Sau Mau Ping and construction of the second phase of Shun On Estate]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1978-07-05. p. 5. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     3. "順安邨地盤工程，正進行積極挖掘" [Shun On Estate construction project: active excavation is underway]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1979-02-19. p. 6. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     4. "麗閣邨及順安邨，七月動工興建，房屋委會昨招標承投" [Lai Kok Estate and Shun On Estate will start construction in July. The Housing Authority tendered the bid yesterday.]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1979-03-24. p. 8. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     5. "房署簽署四份建築合約，總値逾三億元，主為進行順利邨及順安邨工程" [Housing Department signed four construction contracts with a total value of over $300 million, mainly for the construction of Shun Lee Estate and Shun On Estate]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1980-07-12. p. 2. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     6. "順安邨安逸樓互助會辦郊遊" [Shun On Estate, On Yat House Mutual Aid Association organizes outing]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1983-07-11. p. 6. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     7. "順安邨走廊階磚濕滑，居民往來容易滑倒，團體進行滑度研究" [The stairs in the corridor of Shun On Estate are slippery, and the residents are prone to slipping. The group is conducting a study of the slipperiness.]. The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1984-09-29. p. 23. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
  2. Articles from Wah Kiu Yat Po (ordered chronologically from 1978 to 1983):
     1. "房屋署人員昨日展開行動，清拆秀茂坪木屋區，闢地建順安邨二期，受影响住戶遷安置區並獲，順安邨第二期將興建六座大廈" [The Housing Department staff launched an operation yesterday to demolish the wooden house area of Sau Mau Ping and build land for the second phase of Shun On Estate. The affected households were also relocated to the resettlement area. Six buildings will be built in the second phase of Shun On Estate.]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1978-07-05. p. 11. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     2. "順安邨兩座樓宇，可入伙過農曆年，首批申請人今辦入伙手續" [Two buildings in Shun On Estate can be occupied during the Lunar New Year. The first batch of applicants will go through the occupancy procedures today]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1978-12-29. p. 19. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     3. "順安邨及時落成，居民入伙渡新歲" [Shun On Estate was completed in time, and residents joined at the start of the new year]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1979-01-03. p. 37. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     4. "順安邨闢建新地盤，開山工程積極進行，全邨八一年完成可獲二千七單位" [Shun On Estate has built a new site, and the mountain opening project is actively being carried out. If it is completed in 1981, the whole village can get 2,007 units.]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1979-02-19. p. 14. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     5. "房屋委會批出逾億元合約興建順安邨" [Housing Authority awards over $100 million contract to build Shun On Estate]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1980-05-04. p. 4. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     6. "順安邨第三期工程，明年九月可望落成，千六單位可容一萬零八百人" [The third phase of Shun On Estate is expected to be completed in September next year, with a capacity of 10,800 people in 1,600 units.]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1980-08-26. p. 16. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     7. "順安邨兩座樓宇，可提早兩月完成，署埋房屋署長大加讚譽" [Two buildings in Shun On Estate were completed two months ahead of schedule, and the Department of Housing and Housing Department greatly praised]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1980-10-11. p. 7. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     8. "工程順利比預期快了四個月，順安邨旁建順天邨，首兩座樓六月入伙" [The project went well four months faster than expected. Shun On Estate was built next to Shun Tin Estate, and the first two buildings were occupied in June]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1981-02-08. p. 7. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     9. "鹹水經常缺乏供應，順安邨民促請改善，辦事處表示對此問題十分重視" [The supply of salt water is often lacking. Shun On Estate residents urged for improvement, and the office said it attaches great importance to this problem.]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1982-11-23. p. 28. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
     10. "順安邨停車場汽車經常失竊，居民希望辦事處加強保安工作" [Cars are often stolen from the parking lot of Shun On Estate. Residents hope that the office will strengthen security work]. Wah Kiu Yat Po (in Chinese). 1983-11-29. p. 21. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
  3. Article from Ta Kung Pao:
     1. "清水灣道順安邨，今起辦入伙手續，房委會稱住客可於農曆年前遷入" [Clear Water Bay Road's Shun On Estate: the occupancy procedures will be completed today. The Housing Authority said that residents can move in before the Lunar New Year.]. Ta Kung Pao (in Chinese). 1978-12-29. p. 5. Retrieved 2022-04-19 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Shun On Estate (traditional Chinese: 順安邨; simplified Chinese: 顺安村) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 05:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Can you clarify, are the excerpts you added above the entirety of coverage of Shun On Estate in each article, or just a sampling? As written, most of these excerpts seem WP:ROUTINE, rather than proper secondary analysis. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:42, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Replied below. Cunard (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for restoring the article, NemesisAT (talk · contribs). Thank you for bringing this article to AfD, MarioGom (talk · contribs), to prevent an edit war from happening. From Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Redirection:

  A page can be blanked and redirected if there is a suitable page to redirect to, and if the resulting redirect is not inappropriate. If the change is disputed via a reversion, an attempt should be made to reach a consensus before blank-and-redirecting again. Suitable venues for doing so include the article's talk page and Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion.

  A redirect had been reverted in the past, so per the policy, it should not have been redirected again without a prior consensus.

  Cunard (talk) 05:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment While I'm unable to read the papers shared by Cunard, the excerpts do suggest there is significant coverage here. WP:ROUTINE is just an essay, the important guideline is WP:GNG which I feel has been met. NemesisAT (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah, I got WP:ROUTINE confused with WP:MILL. The WP:ROUTINE argument used above is invalid as that is a notability guideline for events. NemesisAT (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You're right about the links being mixed up, but the concern about routine coverage is still relevant to this discussion, as routine coverage is trivial and fails the GNG criterion of significant coverage. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:52, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't agree that the coverage is trivial. If an article has multiple paragraphs (for example) on the construction of the tower blocks, then that counts as significant coverage in my view. NemesisAT (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  These are not excerpts from the newspaper article. These are newspaper headlines. Each newspaper article spends at least several paragraphs discussing Shun On Estate. The sustained extensive coverage in reliable sources allow the public housing estate to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. WP:ROUTINE redirects to Wikipedia:Notability (events)#Routine coverage. A public housing estate is not an event. As a public housing estate, Shun On Estate is owned by the Hong Kong Housing Authority, a government agency. "Routine coverage" should not be applied to newspaper articles about public housing estates. Cunard (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep' The Chinese sources contain substantive coverage of the subject and easily satisfy the notability guidelines. This is a very unsatisfactory AfD: the nominator explicitly did not do WP:BEFORE and some editors seem to dismiss the Chinese sources very cursorily without being able to read them. Atchom (talk) 02:03, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and expand. 124.217.188.46 (talk) 05:43, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep' per Cunard. There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Shun On Estate to pass GNG. Taung Tan (talk) 10:00, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. There are sufficient WP:RS providing the WP:SIGCOV to meet WP:GNG...Bringing an article to AfD causes lots of editors to spend a significant amount of time evaluating whether it should be kept or deleted. Rather than waste untold hours of people's time, a set of actions to be taken before nominating an article for deletion has been established. This is not optional! Bringing an article to AfD without performing adequate BEFORE is disrespectuful of the value of other editors time. If you can't or won't perform a thorough WP:BEFORE, please wait to until you can before nominating it. There is no deadline to delete an article that's been around for 13 years, why rush to nominate it and waste other people's time until you've taken the time to do the basic verification steps that have been established by consensus? Jacona (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Clearly enough RS Coverage. Padgriffin ^{Griffin's Nest} 13:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.