- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Tuckahoe (plantation). Missvain (talk) 00:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Slavery at Tuckahoe plantation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Insufficiently notable as an independent subject. This article is like a term paper (or blog post/essay), cited by primary and self-published sources (like the Tuckahoe website) and small sections in works on slavery in the antebellum South in general or in Virginia in particular. Way too much WP:OR. "Slavery at Tuckahoe plantation" gets zero Google hits outside of Wikipedia mirrors and a 2019 vandal graffiti. Softlavender (talk) 22:38, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- A number of thoughts:
- - I realize that some of the information comes from primary sources - the History of Tuckahoe site - but that has information that is most relevant. I could remove a fair amount by removing the information about the residents.
- I went ahead and removed the information about the Boyd family that was woven into the article here–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- -I am not getting how this is WP:OR. Do you have an example of a sentence, paragraph, section that you think is OR?
- -It is meant to give a glimpse of how live really was for enslaved people. And, in particular in Virginia.
- -I don't get the term paper / blog point.
- -It would be a bummer to see this go. Perhaps I could roll it into the Tuckahoe plantation article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that part of its notability comes from having formed Jefferson's opinions about slavery and the comment from Thomas Anburey. I created an article that I wanted to read: What was slavery really like on one of the "great plantations" in Virginia. And, the Randolph's were very influential in Colonial Virginia. I am certain that there is some way that this can be told - some how - somewhere.
- I have been writing articles and biographies for Wikipedia for years about slavery, freedmen, and the Underground Railroad - and I have almost always thought: Why isn't life on a plantation a part of the written history?
- Yes, I may be too close for objective thought on this - but I thought it might help to understand some of the background.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The links provided above on the article title aren't as helpful as: Slave Tuckahoe Virginia -wikipedia -Douglass–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:44, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing comes up as an independent topic (except reports on the 2019 incident of vandalism). All else is from Tuckahoe websites, etc. The topic is not notable as an independent subject. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All else is from Tuckahoe websites, etc.
- I am not sure what article you are looking at. Have you looked at the article since I removed the Boyd family info? I wouldn't call Jon Meacham, Gibson Worsham, newspapers, etc. as lacking in objectivity. There is one Tuckahoe source of the 24 sources for the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- In order to meet Wikipedia notability thresholds, a subject must have significant coverage in reliable publications that are independent of the subject. All existing coverage of slavery at Tuckahoe (short of the minor 2019 vandalism issue) is from Tuckahoe-related sites, or mentions (often brief) in works on slavery in the antebellum South in general or in Virginia in particular, or on other subjects. Slavery at Tuckahoe is no more independently notable as an indepedent subject than is slavery at any one of nearly 1,000 antebellum plantations that have articles on Wikipedia. -- Softlavender (talk) 01:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- About your response:
- 1) There is one primary source of 24 sources. I am gobsmacked on this and the OR comment. I think we should let it alone and have others weigh-in.
- 2) I absolutely agree that it wouldn't make sense to have articles like this for many other plantations. There were, though, the following articles for Washington/Mount Vernon: List of enslaved people of Mount Vernon and George Washington and slavery. And, there are several reasons why this plantation was in the top of the list of "great plantations of the James River". It was also unique in that it was very self-contained. It wasn't just any old plantation.
- I totally can see options to transform the article:
- something like Randolph family of Virginia and slavery for the Randolph family of Virginia. That would bring in a number of Virginian estates and a much broader swath of plantation owners. It would add some interesting angles - the slave-owning Randolph who tried to pass a law to gradually close down slavery, the people who manumitted (or had intended to manumit) slaves in large numbers, slaves being passed between family members - which would also bring Jefferson family members into the discussion.
- if it is determined that it shouldn't be a stand-alone article, it could be easily merged into into Tuckahoe (plantation)
- or something about Slavery on Virginia plantations - with Tuckahoe being one of those. Yikes, that would make it very large and take a LOT of research, though. I'm shaking in my boots about that option.
- As an FYI, I have temporarily commented out the Legacy section about the 2019 incident here. It's really more of an FYI and not terribly germane to the bulk of the article... and mostly it's confusing the discussion about the body of the article. Unless I am pinged specifically, I will bow out at this point and let others weigh-in.
- If an admin sees this, could we include the African diaspora and the National Register of Historical Places groups - if there are separate lists for them - to this discussion?–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:03, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not say anything about primary sources or OR in the comment you are responding to. I said "All existing coverage of slavery at Tuckahoe (short of the minor 2019 vandalism issue) is from Tuckahoe-related sites, or mentions (often brief) in works on slavery in the antebellum South in general or in Virginia in particular, or on other subjects." -- Softlavender (talk) 03:19, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 08:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge Tuckahoe (plantation) isn't that long, and I don't see why this integral part of its history needs to be on a separate article. Also integral descriptions of the plantation itself that should be on the main article rather than split ("Tuckahoe had a weaving room...", "A collection of outbuildings were located on Plantation Street of Tuckahoe.") I mean, sort of by definition every plantation had slaves, it's not a separate topic. Terrific work on it though, thanks Carole. Reywas92Talk 05:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- As an FYI, I started Talk:Slavery at Tuckahoe plantation#Address issues to address the issues raised here in the event that the article is merged or becomes part of a larger topic (like Slavery at Virginia plantations or Slavery and the Virginia Randolphs). Any input is appreciated.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.