The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. - Bobet 12:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Songs from The Legend of Zelda series[edit]

A thoroughly unencyclopaedic article, which fails WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide, or a game tutorial - this article lists how to play each indidivual song in the game (giving notes, and even keypresses!). It also tells the player where to find the Ocarina in each game. This is all game guide stuff, and should be deleted. Proto::type 09:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete as nominator. Proto::type 09:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as game guide per nom. — Haeleth Talk 11:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. How-to gamecruft.--Fuhghettaboutit 12:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Wow it even lists which buttons to use. Per above. Wickethewok 14:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. Benji64 14:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This article as a whole does not qualify for deletion, if perhaps some instructory sentences should be deleted. The listing of note and button sequences (which has now been deleted by an unregistered IP; check history) is not a "how-to", but a source of relevant information. At least these relevant listings on the page are not "cruft" or useless, as even readers who are not familiar with the game can gain an understanding for how songs are played through the video game and its console by the "Sequence" entries, and what these songs sound like by the "Notes" entries. I especially deem it proper to have a list of notes in an article on songs where the reader cannot hear the songs being played. Also, the statement by Proto that "It also tells the player where to find the Ocarina in each game" is untrue, in that it does not say this for all the games and the Ocarina isn't always the featured instrument anyway. Nevertheless, any complaints of this nature could be resolved by editing small portions of the page, not deleting it altogether. --Tryforceful 17:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I deleted the button sequences because there really isn't an encylopedic reason for how to perform songs. As it stands, I don't think much can be done to save the article, unless it is pared down to simply a list of all of the Zelda songs. A few of them (such as the Song of Time) might warrant a sentence or two on their history and importance, but a lot of what is here is a genuine guide on how to play the games. I think a vast simplification could warrant keeping it as a list with an explanation of the historical importance of music and specifically player-created music in the Zelda games, and I encourage people to continue further editing the article to reflect that; however, I know that the newly established precedents and hoards of "gamecruft" calls will end up just deleting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.61.46.16 (talk • contribs)
Further Comment - I've edited it further to remove all game guide material, and now ask editors to weigh in again on this AFD. I think that in its current state, it provides a nice overview of the history of music in the Zelda games. Expandability options would include a more historical treatment of its evolution from a minor feature to a major gameplay element, which could be easily cited, or a more in-depth explanation as to the importance of certain instruments/songs to the history of the Zelda world (while avoiding how they're used in the game): the obvious example here is the Ocarina. 129.61.46.16 20:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]
Comment - If sheet music is added in, could that save the article? Logicaldisaster 23:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm honestly not sure - although at the very least, it would be awesome if we could find it and simply reference it in order to help verifiability. 68.106.198.28 02:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]

Keep - The article documents a legitimate element of Zelda games and should not be deleted. In some games (Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker especially), music plays a pivotal role in the plot and this article is used to talk about it. I agree that some of the article is cruft and needs editting but that's just it. All it needs is a little editting. The keypresses may be unnecessary and they've already been removed besides. It's not a game guide since music is so important to the storyline and should not be deleted. Axem Titanium 19:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would liken this to an article which lists the first sentence in each chapter of some very famous novel; it's crucial to set the tone of what follows, but we don't need this and I would think it unencyclopedic. The problem is that we don't, for the most part, see these analogous articles for none "pop" subjects because lovers of 1984 (novel), for example, don't have the young's passion and single-minded devotion for their pet projects (and let's face it, a lot less time to devote). So the result is ever more minutia from this type of subject forked into autonomous articles. Aren't the sound effects from the game incredibly important?; the artistry; its smooth scrolling system (I just made that up), etc. Sure, they're all important to the game. What should be included in an encyclopedia though. If someone looks up 1984 they should learn about that novel. We shouldn't have and don't need an article listing each fictional placename made up by Orwell for 1984, or one listing each place Winston visits therein. It's enough to give an example in an article on those subtopics which are important. We apparently do need, however, a separate article about every character mentioned in any manga. That songs are important to the game can be mentioned in the article on the primary topic, along with a precis of the famous songs, but forking that into a separate list of every song is beyond the scope and purpose of an encyclopedia (even one unconstrained by the limits of paper).--Fuhghettaboutit 00:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But the point is that Wikipedia is really not constrained by paper. If the topic can be covered in an encyclopedic manner (and not as a how-to), then there's no reason not to cover it. Yes, if it is a minor topic, then it probably shouldn't be given its own page and instead mentioned on the main zelda page. If we look at The_Legend_of_Zelda_series, however (which has been rated as a good article), then it's already obvious that it's a pretty large page. At a certain point, you should branch off onto new pages; dial up readers don't want to load a single zelda page consisting of all of the encyclopedic information on Zelda available, and nobody else wants to read all the way through that either. That's the point of new articles. Also, by the logic of your post above, it would be much appreciated if you changed your vote from, "Delete How-to gamecruft." to at least, "Delete Non-notable." The logic of your post suggests that you don't think of it as a how-to, but rather as not being notable enough. 68.106.198.28 02:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]

"Not-notable" is tautological here; "Gamecruft" is one type of not-notable animal. As for how-to, it was until cleaned up into another derivative list. We are not going to agree on whether anything that can be written about, should be. I disagree that this can ever be covered in an encyclopedic manner. It may be that words can be strung together in an encyclopedic tone—that's irrelevant—the topic itself is what I think is inherently unencyclopedic.--Fuhghettaboutit 02:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree to disagree on the notability of the article - all I want to do is ensure that the debate cannot be decided by WP:NOT a game guide. The rest of this AFD can hammer out the notability of the subject, but I hope it can be agreed that this article no longer construes a "how-to" guide in its current form and should not be judged on the original basis of the nomination. I believe the rest of this AFD should decide on the notability of this particular subject, and not the game guide issue. 68.106.198.28 02:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]

Keep per above. It is an important part of the game it should be fixed to take away game guides, but not deleted. -ScotchMB 00:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Music is such an important part of Zelda that I do think it's worth keeping. The article also has possibility for expansion, as mentioned above, with the comparisons of the importance of music throughout the series. Vickser 02:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak Delete~~. My love of the series vs. my hatred of fancruft make this a hard call, but I'd have to say a lot of this falls under "indiscriminate ... information". I'd be tempted to reduce this to listing only Epona's Song and Zelda's Lullaby/Overworld Theme (other famous ones escape me at the moment). Garrett^Talk 06:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC) -- I am reviewing my vote, and will re-vote in the section below. Garrett^Talk 23:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete [{WP:NOT]] GameFAQs. These songs have no obvious existence outside the game. Just zis Guy you know? 10:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please see above discussion. Most discussions of fictional characters, such as Charles_Foster_Kane have no relevance outside of their own fiction - that does not make them a "how-to" guide. 129.61.46.16 12:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]

Weak merge I am a fan of the Zelda series, so hopefully that is not coloring my judgment in any way. But, as a user, I find searching this article difficult, and I can't think of a way to organize it that would be less difficult, unless we were talking paragraphs instead of these disjointed lists-within-lists. If I were looking for information on the songs, this is not the page name I would enter in the search box, either. On the other hand, the music is a large part of gameplay, especially in the games where you actually play the music on your ocarina. But I think the best place for this kind of information would be in the articles about each game. Jacqui ^★ 20:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After reviewing the rewrite and subsequent comments, I'd like to clarify my position: do I think the songs of the games are not notable? Would I be unhappy with leaving the article where it is? Certainly not. If the article were deleted outright without at least some of this information being put elsewhere, I would be a little upset. But ultimately, I still think the presentation of the information would work better if merged. I also think the OST article ideas would work better if this information were merged, but that's not why I'm voting this way. Jacqui ^★ 17:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Needed ((cleanup)) not ((afd)) per WP:DEL#Problem articles where deletion may not be needed. What a joke. yawn. --DavidHOzAu 05:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Being this songs an integral part of the Zelda series I would advice to keep them either at their current place or -in an extreme case- merging it with the Zelda series article. --Zago_MX 12:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite[edit]

Comment: I have just re-written the article into something now hopefully resembling encyclopaedic content, replacing the listing with actual information and shortening/combining sections. However there is still the issue of notability. I would request that all prior-voting editiors please re-review the article and see if it is now any more suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. — Ian Moody ^(talk) 22:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As per Ian Moody's request, I reviewed the newer version of the article. I still believe that a listing of these songs doesn't really add anything to an outsider's understanding of the Zelda games that the plot synopses don't. However, articles for the officially released soundtracks of these games would be encyclopedic and notable (if anyone wishes to pursue that), though I don't think any of the content from this article would need to be merged. Wickethewok 22:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, but you forgot that it's not a listing anymore: there is a approriate lead section and it contains verifiable information, the beginnings of any good wikipedia article. The article needed ((cleanup)) not ((afd)) per WP:DEL#Problem articles where deletion may not be needed. Furthermore, it is as significant to the The Legend of Zelda series as a Chaos Emerald or Master Emerald (and so on) is to Sonic the Hedgehog series. The nomination is a joke. --DavidHOzAu 05:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. SevereTireDamage 11:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
keep please this is interesting and important to the game zelda Yuckfoo 13:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The original basis of the nomination is no longer applicable in the rewritten version, so the only issue is notability. Music is an integral part of the Zelda franchise, and has been incorporated extensively in a number of very notable games for decades - that justifies an article. 129.61.46.16 15:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]
Keep per 129.61.46.16, with the caveat that i'm assuming a large number of articles about zelda music don't already exist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ikanreed (talk • contribs) 15:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion - Why not create articles for the Zelda OSTs which were released by Nintendo (instead of this article)? These would be able to contain similar information to this article, but be able to present it under a more encyclopedic context imo. I have a couple of the OSTs and they contain the songs mentioned here. Wickethewok 19:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think that could be a good idea for an article, but it seems to serve a different purpose than what I think is being discussed here. The context of this article (as well as the previous version) is to discuss how music is incorporated into the gameplay of the Zelda series as a design element, as opposed to background music. The title, however, should probably be changed to reflect that. 129.61.46.16 20:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)Josh[reply]

Comment on Comment - The original page, before it was massacred so, made a note that this article elaborates(/-ed) on songs played by the characters in the game, and to see a separate page for background music that would be titled "Background music from The Legend of Zelda series." In this page's demise, someone loudly removed the link because that bgmusic page doesn't exist yet, although I planned to start it later on anyway... --Tryforceful 22:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - it is clearly no longer a "how-to" or a guide. It gives valid information about each song, some origins, etc. I think it is a good idea to have it here. Maybe it could include some more information about the songs, like in-game song history, story information, and information about the songs & their origins from the real world. -Platypus Man | Talk 17:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep there is no reason to delete this, gamers might need this article.--Cory pratt 19:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.