The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. LFaraone 02:16, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Temple Riders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Fails Wikipedia:Notability --ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 16:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete As the nom states, this group has not received enough coverage in order to be consider notable according to WP standards. Angryapathy (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete unremarkable bike club. article does not assert notability --Biker Biker (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I think this deletion discussion might merit wider attention.

  I found 13 significant 2 unique news articles on Temple Riders, but all of them argue that the group is remarkable because they defy the "biker stereotype" that "Bikers are supposedly foulmouthed, freewheeling, hard-drinking highway desperadoes", and instead they are law-abiding, sober, well groomed and clean, and they proselytize their religion. The first problem with that claim to notability is that Google News archive has perhaps 3,400 articles about various groups that also "defy the biker stereotype": many of them religious, some oriented to women or law enforcement or the military or retirees or just regular people who like motorcycles. There are news articles dating back 30 years, at least, announcing the remarkable existence of motorcyclists who are not stereotypically thuggish. It's clear that non-stereotypical motorcyclists are not remarkable at all. There is a significant body of writing about the myth-making involved in spreading the biker stereotype, which is covered somewhat in the WP articles Outlaw motorcycle club, Motorcycle club and Hollister riot. This coverage could be expanded, obviously. How and why a media myth exists is notable and well documented, but how does that make Temple Riders notable?

  What if we just accept the news articles at face value, and say that Temple Riders are notable because they are motorcycle club that obeys the law, and does not flout social convention. The problem there is that the reason Hells Angels, Bandidos, etc. are notable is because they break the law and raise hell. How can motorcycle clubs be notable for being stereotypical bikers and also be notable for not being stereotypical bikers? Does this mean motorcycle groups are notable no matter what they do?

Temple Riders articles

MormonTimes.com: Temple Riders rally in central Utah. Andrew Marshall Deseret News. Deseret News. Salt Lake City, Utah: Aug 5, 2008. p. WEB Motorcyclists promote Christian values. Kathryn Jones. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Oct 26, 2006. * Temple Riders defy biker stereotype. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Oct 26, 2006.* Temple Riders not your typical biker club. Kathryn Jones. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Sep 28, 2006.* Motorcycles, but not mayhem, drive the Temple Riders. Kathryn Jones. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Sep 14, 2006. * Temple Riders defy biker stereotypes. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Sep 14, 2006. * Mild-mannered motorcyclists promote Christian values. Kathryn Jones. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Aug 31, 2006. * Bike Gang Blends Leather And Book Of Mormon; [METRO Edition]. Associated Press. Orlando Sentinel. Orlando, Fla.: Jan 29, 2000. p. E.7 ** Bikers Take Book of Mormon on Road; [Bulldog Edition]. Hannah Wolfson. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 26, 1999. p. 53 ** Bike gang blends leather and the Book of Mormon. Hannah Wolfson The Associated Press. The Grand Rapids Press. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Sep 28, 1999. p. C.2 ** Mission to ride Mormons on motorcycles aren't out for a Sunday drive; [FINAL AM Edition]. Hannah Wolfson. Fort Worth Star - Telegram. Fort Worth, Tex.: Sep 24, 1999. p. 23 ** Temple Riders - leather, bikes, religion They're older and ride with copies of Book of Mormon. Hannah Wolfson. Idaho Statesman. Boise, Idaho: Jul 4, 1999. p. 10.a ** Motorcycle Mormons Take the Righteous Ride. Hannah Wolfson. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Jul 3, 1999. p. C.1 ** * Reprint of same article. ** Reprint of another article.

--Dbratland (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - changed my entry to keep for two reasons. One I think Dbratland shows the organisation receives a good amount of coverage and two, I honestly think this is an attempt by a Mormon to censor anything Mormon-related that the church might not agree with as this same nominator is trying to do at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Family Fellowship. Wikipedia is not censored and all attempts to do so by those who have vested interests should be resisted. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Still Delete- First, Biker Biker need to WP:Assume good faith and not assume all LDS members are the same. If you ask any commenter at Talk:Undergarment#Time_to_review_Temple_Garment_image I am active in trying to maintain WP:NOTCENSORED when It comes to LDS article. I nominated this article for one reason, and I still feel it fails Notability as stated.

Now to the real issues I think this group fails significant coverage from secondary sources, Notability is not temporary, and WP:PROMOTION. I feel for the following reasons.

• "13 significant 2 unique news articles on Temple Riders" dose not establish significant coverage.
• The Salt Lake Tribune, Deseret News, and MormonTimes.com statues as "secondary sources" when It comes to LDS articles is disputable. There entire focuses of those papers is LDS related stories. They are not "independent of the subject" It would be like stating that the 700 club is a "secondary sources" when it come to Christian news. After all Deseret News and MormonTimes.com are OWNED by the LDS church and the The Salt Lake Tribune was started by Elias L.T. Harrison and John Tullidge who disagreed with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'.
• That leaves only the last six articles. All from pre-2000 and based on the same AP article. Notability is not temporary and if you do a Google News search on this group "Temple Riders" you get ZERO results.
• It also fails WP:PROMOTION since this club is so un-Notable the best anyone can come up with is two line and a link to the website of the group.

As to "How can motorcycle clubs be notable for being stereotypical bikers and also be notable for not being stereotypical bikers?", Wikipedia has nothing to do with stereotypes. The Hells angels are notable because they have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". I don't see this being true of the Temple Riders, or the Azuza Street Riders a Christian bikers group who dosn't have a Wikipedia page.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 14:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment noted, but we'll have to agree to disagree and I stand by my comments. --Biker Biker (talk) 15:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep Even though I object to the idea that notability based on nonsensical reasoning -- that non-thuggish bikers are in any way extraordinary -- I think probably we should follow the notability policy somewhat blindly and accept that not only LDS-associated media have covered them, but also the Los Angeles Times, Fort Worth Star - Telegram, Orlando Sentinel, and others have picked up and reprinted the stories that the Salt Lake papers were pushing. Yes, it's lazy journalism, but journalism nonetheless and it indicates that the MSM finds Temple Riders worth talking about.

  While we don't have a page for Azuza Street Riders, we do have Bikers for Christ, Tribe of Judah Motorcycle Ministries, God's Squad and Jewish Motorcyclists Alliance, all of which barely, if at all, pass the bar for notability, and none of which includes much critical thought, in violation of the neutrality policy. It might be better to think about merging all of these motorcycle ministries into a single page that summarizes the redundant information about them, along the lines of Christian metal, Christian hardcore etc.

  A merged page would also give room to talk more plainly about the practice of infiltrating and co-opting subversive cultures for the purpose of proselytizing, in much the same way that Harley Owners Group has been an extraordinarily effective marketing tool by co-opting the outlaw biker style in the name of commerce. --Dbratland (talk) 17:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you can figure out a merge of some kind, I would be more than happy to agree with you.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 18:03, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the how is pretty simple: A main section that describes the common characteristics of these ministries, followed by brief sub-sections that describe what is unique or notable about each individual ministry, leaving out most of the trivial details. I don't think the how of such merge is much of anything; for me it is the when -- I have an ever growing list of such projects and less time than ever. But I think it's worthwhile to keep the article and add a merge of the motorcycling ministry articles to the to-do list for the Motorcycling WikiProject, or one of the religion WikiProjects. Also, FWIW, there is at least a book or two out there on the subject. --Dbratland (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that the Temple Riders is not a ministry of any kind; instead it's merely an association of people belonging to the same religious denomination (LDS Church) that have a common interest (motorcycles) where they take LDS themed group trips together (to LDS Temples). If they were actually doing some kind of active ministry/outreach/proselyting to the motorcycle sub-culture(s) they might be slightly notable; as it is, they are no more notable than any other hobbyist group that travel together. Novelty does not impart notability, notability is not temporary, and having a couple of silly season/filler articles that got picked up in the media echo chamber means very little. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - This does appear to have had significant coverage from secondary sources like the Los Angeles Times, the Arizona Republic, Associated Press, the Salt Lake City Tribune and more. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] --Oakshade (talk) 05:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.