The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 11:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Upton, Pembrokeshire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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I was unable to find any source noting this as an actual town or village in Pembrokeshire. Upton Castle is of course real, but all sources about that castle only note the nearby village of Cosheston. The 10K population figure is absolutely false, the whole community of Cosheston has under 1000 people. Jujutacular (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Jujutacular (talk) 23:46, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Jujutacular (talk) 23:47, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. One Google hit ([1]) and multiple Google Books snippet views indicate the Upton is a hamlet in Nash Parish.[2] It appears to be a populated place recognized since at least the 19th century. • Gene93k (talk) 00:02, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I'm wondering if this subject can really be separated from Upton Castle/Upton Chapel. Many of the hits I'm seeing are hard to distinguish. Jujutacular (talk) 00:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Exists, was formerly a parish (albeit wit a very low population) even if it isn't now. --Michig (talk) 08:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment We have a presumption of notability for existing towns; do we have one for formerly-existing small villages? It's certainly a borderline case, given that we have articles on the two surviving buildings already. What would help the article's case would be a few substantial mentions in reliable sources for the village (not the castle or chapel). Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. On the one hand "lost villages" may be more notable than minor surviving villages in England and Wales. On the other hand, there's no obvious evidence for the previous existence of a village, which would lead us to the question as to whether historical parishes are by default notable. Lavateraguy (talk) 16:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Inclining to Delete: I don't see why they should be, we're not talking about any sort of substantial place. This is worth an article if there are decent sources discussing its history, archaeology, or cultural resonances (medieval history-dramas or whatever). Otherwise, it's worth a footnote in the existing articles. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GEOLAND states places don't need references they need to be populated and legally recognised either in the past or present. This place was a former parish - a legal designation requiring residents. Google maps says it currently exists as an entity - today it is a working farm and unless the farmhouse is empty it has residents. This policy is informally stated as "It exists". Szzuk (talk) 21:07, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. It exists, google maps say it exists. I think WP keeps every two bit place, no matter how two bit. Probably there are only two bit people there - that is enough. Szzuk (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Upton was a parish, see the listed building entry on Upton Chapel.[3] Upton is also named as a parish in BBC Doomsday Reloaded and in A Topographical Dictionary of Wales (1833). Is it shown as a parish on the OS Six-inch Map (1869) and on the OS 1:25,000 map (1948). Upton as shown as a place independent from the Castle on the current OS 1:50000 map, although not on the 1:25,000 map. WP:GEOLAND says that

* Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low. Even abandoned places can remain notable, because notability encompasses their entire history.

The general rule is that notability is not lost, if something was ever notable then it still is, see WP:NOTTEMPORARY. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Verbcatcher for turning up this additional information! The only problem I have with these references to the Upton Parish is that it appears parishes in Wales are only administrative divisions of the Anglican church, not local government (although historically, perhaps there was no difference!). At any rate, it does appear to be some sort of named populated locality, so I'm essentially OK with keeping this article. Can't really withdraw without Chiswick Chap agreeing from above. I'll leave it up to those more knowledgeable of the subject to get the article in good shape. Thanks. Jujutacular (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Once notable suffices. --Doncram (talk) 03:00, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.