The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Single purpose accounts noted. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Voyage Au Pays Des Nouveaux Gourous[edit]

Is it really appropriate to devote a wikipedia article to a one-hour program on French television three years ago? What is there to render this program any more significant for an encyclopedia item than any of the other thousands that are shown worldwide every night of the week? DaveApter 11:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: DaveApter (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]

  • Welcome to wikipedia! Please take a little time to acquaint yourself with What Wikipedia is not. It is definitely not a vehicle for publicising television shows, however much you personally may be impressed with the content thereof. DaveApter 16:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: DaveApter (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
The notability of the article becomes all the greater given that Landmark Education's main French-language web-page provides direct links to not one but two attempted refutations of the broadcast. -- Did any independent and uninvolved parties make allegations of hack journalism? or did such allegations come from Landmark Education, the "victim" whom one might expect to respond indignantly? -- As for the alleged inaccuracy of citations, the story has at least two sides, and Wikipedia has the bandwidth to cover them both and in detail. - Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Selective quoting seems inevitable unless we transcribe the entire video and contribute it to the Wikimedia Commons. If my fellow-editor has a concern with balanced quoting, s/he can add further quotes from the broadcast to the article, including the statements of the Landmark Education representative Sophie McLean. -- Allegations of a smear campaign may overlook the addition to Wikipedia by Smeelgova of a large body of well-referenced work of wide and abiding interest to readers. -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note further, that the Google video and Wikipedia links to that video have now been removed as well. This video article was put up to market links to copyright infringement. Sm1969 03:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Finally, even the French language Wikipedia does not have an article on either A) Landmark Education or B) this episode "Voyage Au Pays Des Nouveaux Gourous." Why on earth should the English language Wikipedia have it? Sm1969 03:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Sm1969 asks why the English-language Wikipedia should contain material not in the French-language Wikipedia. Sadly, the French Wikipedia has long lagged in the insertion of articles, but that by no means implies that the English Wikipedia should neglect the Francophone world. Think of the present article as a service to Anglophone readers and to viewers of a French-language broadcast with English-language subtitles, making the backgound and the materials less "difficult to find". (That charitable good-faith interpretation would fly in the face of the allegation claiming that the insertion of the article aimed "to put forth negative evidence on" Landmark Education, though. Fortunately, subsequent edits have/will/can NPOVise any such alleged intention.) - Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This describes the article a POV fork. Sm1969 07:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
I'm a major contributor to WP:POVFORK and I don't see how this could be considered a POV fork. "POV fork" means more than simply "currently written in a POV fashion." -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article is relevant only in the context of Landmark Education. The French Wikipedia says nothing about LE and nothing about this video. The article was created to put forth negative evidence on LE. What's worse--the underlying source is all in French language and any disputes to it would be in French, so they are difficult to find. We do know that France 3 was fined for violating media ethics. The film should be given a paragraph on LE's main web page, not its own article with selective quotes and ongoing advertisements of links and directions on how to get copyrighted material without permission. Sm1969 19:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
I was addressing your argument that the article was a "POV fork". Why are you not doing so? As for your last sentence, it's a bit of a false choice, isn't it? You list a number of things which are all reasons for cleanup, but then fail to acknowledge cleanup as one of our options. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to the POV fork arguments later. I am in class right now. 66.243.153.70 20:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Ok, let me address the WP:POVFORK assertion I made. I has more to do than with just POV fashion. For it to be a POVFORK, it must be a POVFORK of something. I assert that the article would have no merit outside of Landmark Education. The French Wikipedia has (last I checked) neither an article on Landmark Education nor on this particular episode nor on the series in general: Pieces A Conviction. In fact, before this Wikipedia article and a few discussions on the Rick Ross message boards, there is little to no English language discourse on the episode. We can't tell what is said about it in France, because we can't read French. That's my evidence for the POV FORK--it should go to Landmark Education.
As an issue of verifiabilty (WP:V): the article concerns a broadcast by reputable information-provider (France 3 and Pieces a conviction). There seems little doubt that the broadcast took place: the response to it by Landmark Education itself confirms this. The article correctly attempts to link to on-line copies of the video where available, in an effort to provide verifiability. Even if complaints force the video out of publicly accessible space, the fact remains: the broadcast took place, the France 3 channel effectively and thoroughly published the content of the video by broadcasting it, and it aroused and continues to arouse interest. This makes it a legitimate subject for a Wikipedia article. -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sm1969 06:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]

I doubt they are *veiled* at all. Landmark Education owns the copyright and that's the end of the issue. France 3 also has copyright. This is about obeying the law--whether you like it or not. The version with the English subtitles does not even identify *who* put in the English subtitles. Clearly, they are not translating the whole video, but selective parts of the video. We seem to acknowledge that the video was taken down from both YouTube and from Archive.org for copyright violation, and the only entity that can make that request is the copyright owner. Yet, Smeelgova insists on linking to material which is--with overwhelming probability--copyrighted. Sm1969 17:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Some have speculated that copyright issues caused the suppression of copies of the video. Do we have any proof of that, or does it remain mere speculation? -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The broadcast itself drew parallels between Landmark Education and other sectes (notably Scientology); accordingly, the article, in reflecting this, has relevance beyond Landmark Education itself in the wider realm of cultic studies. -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would advise against resurrecting the Sophie McLean article. Unless she has done something notable since it was deleted last week, you'd be looking at speedy deletion under WP:CSD G4. Also, as Sophie redirects here, you're just advocating shifting the problem around. Why not get it dealt with here. Deizio talk 08:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(1) This is a investigative artical on something that may have been contriversal, in 2003, in France. It turns out it was not. (It does show a significant bias however. It is also noted that France 3 was fined for this Film and the only contriversy, seems to be made up by France 3) (2) It is only one episode, I wish we could do a page on every Simpsons episode, but that is left to other sites. (3) The artical could (IMHO should) be condensed on the Landmark Education Page (which it currently is)
Whether or not the French public found the video controversial in 2003, the broadcasting of that video certainly appears to have played a role in the closing down of Landmark Education activities in France. Any French controversy may have cooled; but other countries still hosting Landmark Education activities have a potentially more lively interest in Landmark Education methods and practices. -- I understand that the France 3 channel paid a small token fine only -- more like an insurance payment in case of invading privacy -- and does so regularly for its broadcasts. -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
IF the artical is kept, IMHO, we need to remove a lot of the quotes, shorten it and include some references on what impact it recieved in France. (Other than the easy to find ones kept by anti-cult sites, written by anti-cult magazines)
As for Copywrite Violation, I originally posted that as I have a concern about the significunt number of block quotes. If the artical links to a copywrite violation, that's not our problem. That's the problem of the hosting site. I do have a concern about the number of inclusions of links to the "copywrite violation" on Wikipedia. At last count it is over 20. It appears that every and any page that has any link (even by 2 or 3 degrees of seperation) with Landmark Education has had the link included.
  • Opps forgot to add sig Mark1800 00:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed from a Weak Delete to a Delete after doing more research this artical. France 3 was fined for this film, and it was reported as a beat-up piece. (the reverse of a puff piece) Mark1800 23:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First, we actually do have an article for every Simpsons episode so far aired. Second, if there was a significant (and verifiable) controversy over this particular episode, that only makes it more notable, and weakens rather than strengthens the case for deletion. Andrew Levine 23:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are a GOD, thank you, thank you. How did I ever miss that. Mark1800 05:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Concern: why has Wikipedia, become a site to track a video. IF you go to the history logs, every time this movie has been removed from a site, the new site it can be found on appears here, on Wikipedia, within 30 min. We are not an opinion forum or a place to dump every last scrap of evidence to support a point of view. Mark1800 22:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please reserve these comments for Talk:Voyage Au Pays Des Nouveaux Gourous. Smeelgova 22:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Please note that the use of the word "cult" is factually false and defamatory. In all court cases where that assertion has been made in the US (and when challenged abroad), Landmark Education has consistently obtained retractions. Sm1969 03:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Not according to the government of France it's not "factually false and defamatory". And please observe the Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers policy. Yours, Smeelgova 06:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Here's your reference re "cult" and defamation: [1] on page 9 stating: "The fair and natural meaning given by persons of ordinary intelligence to to the allegation that a group is a "cult" ... is inarguably derogatory. Further, in Landmark litigation, the court held specifically that the allegation that a program or entity is a cult is actionable as either a statement of fact or a mixed statement of fact and opinion." Sm1969 07:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
Please stop violating Wikipedia:No legal threats. Thank you. Yours, Smeelgova 07:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC). — Possible single purpose account: Smeelgova (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic and related topics and over 3,000 contributions on this topic and related topics.[reply]
These are not legal threats as I have zero intention of acting on them (nor am I the defamed entity in this case). I am simply pointing out policy with Libel. Wikipedia:Libel Sm1969 07:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Sm1969 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]

The above statement by Sm1969, as well as the attempts by Landmark campaigners to falsely and defamatorily:):) claim the article and film in some way break their copyright, shows the legalistic bent of Landmark. When a person writes 'cult' they mean in common parlance, as normal people would use the word. They use it to mean a destructive group. Anyway, I'm not going to get into a debate here about the worth or otherwise of the Forum/EST (strange they have to rename themselves so many times- as if their previous name they have to obscure from new recruits due to obtaining a reputation as a destructive group.)

P.S. Thanks for your comment Smeelgova. However I'm ok:) I don't consider the comments of Sm1969 to be biting, he's entitled to his legalistic viewpoint, as others are entitled to disregard it as irrelevant to everyday use of the term 'cult' to mean 'destructive group.'Merkinsmum 07:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an article about Landmark Education. This is an article about an investigative journalism documentary piece made by an internationally recognized television program that airs to over 1.5 million viewers, on France 3, France's second largest television network, Pieces a Conviction. Yours, Smeelgova 19:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]
This is not minority opinion. Landmark, like Scientology, can't take criticism. This topic has seen a lot of "throwaway" accounts created just to support what is truly indefensible. What is the real reason you have an RfD here? You're a Landmarker, right? Be ~honest~ and full of ~integrity~ 24.76.101.49 19:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the previous anonymous user bothered to look at my user page, or my comments on the LE discussion page, he would know that there is no lack of honesty, openness or disclosure about where I stand on the issue.
  • As for 'throwaway accounts' - as far as I can see, all of the delete votes are from editors who have been active for months or years. On the other hand at least three of the keep votes are from accounts created in the last week or so. DaveApter 09:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: DaveApter (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
The concern about minority views gaining expression seems particularly apt in this case. By artificially regarding those who have "done" Landmark Education courses as experts or as a privileged body, one can give the impression that large numbers of people support or endorse Landmark Education. This non-consensus view, misrepresented (I believe) on the current Landmark Education talk page, stands in contrast to counter-arguments on archived talk pages. The subject of the article currently proposed for deletion, the film Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous, casts a wide net during its hour-long run, presenting views from supporters as well as from detractors, from participants as well as from commentators, from Landmark Forum Leaders and a Landmark Education representative to "assistants". It does the film, the broadcaster and the article a disservice to suggest, one-sidely, that this coverage may constitute "extensive coverage to minority opinions about Landmark Education, and cloaking them in unwarranted authority." -- Pedant17 13:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please note that this is a page for discussing whether this article is in accordance with wikipedia policies, not for airing your opinions on Landmark Education - if you want to do that please go to a discussion forum or blog. DaveApter 09:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: DaveApter (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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