August 23

Category:Wetlands of Pallisa District

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Pallisa District. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Wetlands of Pallisa District (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Single-entry WP:SMALLCAT. As always, things do not always need to be categorized all the way down to the "district" level right off the top -- this would be fine if there were five wetlands to file here, but is not needed for just one. There are only three things in the parent category Category:Wetlands of Uganda, however, and one of those three things is the same thing that's filed here (in defiance of WP:DUPCAT rules), which means that there's no prospect of finding four other wetlands to justify this category anytime soon. Bearcat (talk) 20:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Category:Pallisa District, for now Category:Wetlands of Uganda suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tornadoes in Canada by date

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Category:Tornadoes in Canada by date

Category:Members of the National Photoartists Union of Ukraine

The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 20:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Members of the National Photoartists Union of Ukraine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT for a single person. As always, every organization that exists does not automatically get its own dedicated "members of" caegory the moment there's one past or present member with an article to file in it -- this would be fine if there were at least five people to file here, but is not warranted for just one. Bearcat (talk) 17:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, mere membership of an organization is hardly ever a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete But per WP:OCASSOC. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Culture of Mayotte

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Category:Culture of Mayotte

Purging nationality categories from Arab people

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 21:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose purging nationality-based categories from ethnicity-based Category:Arab people tree, i.e. also from Arab women, Category:Arab people by occupation, Category:Arab artists etc.
E.g. remove Category:Iraqi people from Category:Arab people, remove Category:Iraqi women from Category:Arab women, remove Category:Iraqi people by occupation from Category:Arab people by occupation, remove Category:Iraqi artists from Category:Arab artists, remove Category:Iraqi people by century from Category:Arab people by century
- remove Category:Algerian people from Category:Arab people, remove Category:Algerian women from Category:Arab women, remove Category:Algerian people by occupation from Category:Arab people by occupation, remove Category:Algerian artists from Category:Arab artists, remove Category:Algerian people by century from Category:Arab people by century
- remove Category:Egyptian people from Category:Arab people, remove Category:Egyptian women from Category:Arab women, remove Category:Egyptian people by occupation from Category:Arab people by occupation, remove Category:Egyptian artists from Category:Arab artists, remove Category:Egyptian people by century from Category:Arab people by century

Nominator's rationale: Category:Artists by ethnicity and Category:Artists by nationality are two different category trees. Not all Iraqi artists are Arab artists, e.g. lots of Iraqi artists are Kurdish. Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 15#Arabs and Arab people. Test case for the disentanglement of nationality-based Category:Fooian people subcategories of the ethnicity-based Category:Arab people tree per suggestion made by @Fayenatic london. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did I nominate this correctly? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:55, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have expanded the nomination and tagged more categories. – Fayenatic London 10:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I wasn't sure which ones to tag, and which ones to leave alone for now, so I decided to begin simple and check with you. I fully agree with your expansion. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I tagged all the above pages. – Fayenatic London 13:13, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. It would make sense to leave a message about this nomination (with a link) at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Arab_world and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Iraq. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As I argued at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_July_18#Category:Arab, categories for nationals of countries where Arabic is the majority language belong in Arab people because WP:SUBCAT allows cases where the majority of contents would belong in the parent. We have other cases where people are sub-catted for less than a majority, e.g. WP:IRE-CATS is a consensus that people from Northern Ireland are parented by both British and Irish hierarchies, even though many do not identify as both but only as one or the other. The description on the category page should indicate how individual biographies should be diffused to subcats. The alternative to this nomination is to copy the vast majority of Algerian/Egyptian/Iraqi artists etc into Arab artists, which would clearly not be desirable. – Fayenatic London 12:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is true. Though there is an alternative, namely to not categorize people by a majority ethnicity at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged and added "People by century" categories, as the "purge" element of the nomination at wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_July_26#Arab_people_by_century was not commented on by other participants. – Fayenatic London 04:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Fayenatic london: what do you think of my latest comment? We do not categorize white Americans either and we categorize Han Chinese people mainly based on sub-ethnicity. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I see (and added a link for reference). Is the implication of your comment that we should delete most or all of the Category:Arab people hierarchy, and only keep biography categories for minorities in the Arab diaspora such as Category:American artists of Arab descent?
As you mentioned Chinese, I looked around the existing hierarchies, and found that there is no navigation between e.g. Category:American artists of Chinese descent and Category:Chinese artists. I wonder if there should be a link for the ethnic connection.
As a compromise, how about keeping the existing categories but adding a layer "People from the Arab World" (+ People from the Arab World by occupation, Artists from the Arab World, 20th-century people from the Arab World, etc) which would contain the sub-cats for the 19 nationalities where Arabic is natively spoken? That would more demonstrably satisfy WP:SUBCAT and the nominator's objections. I do not strongly favour this extra layer, but would prefer that to purging the connections per the nomination. – Fayenatic London 10:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- That sounds like the best idea so far. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would strongly oppose a People from the Arab World tree per as an WP:ARBITRARYCAT, a WP:SUBJECTIVECAT, and an WP:OR WP:CROSSCAT.
The People from Fooland naming convention is mostly used for former countries. The recent renamings stem from the Category:People from the Russian Empire precedent of September 2022. "The Arab world" was never a single country or sovereign state, so the People from Fooland naming convention does not apply here.

There is no agreed definition on "Arab world", so it can never be WP:CATSPECIFIC, but only lead to categorisation problems. For the same reason I have been deleting/merging/renaming pages called "Western Europe(an)" something, because there is no agreed definition on "Western Europe" either (see for example Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 31#Category:Archaeological cultures of Western Europe). I don't care if it's possibly (depending on definition, which is the problem) about the region I just so happen to live in or somewhere else; categorisation needs to happen according to agreed definitions.

You say the 19 nationalities where Arabic is natively spoken, but that sentence in itself doesn't even make sense. What you probably (?) mean is that there are 19 [sic] countries where Arabic is the native language spoken by the majority of the population. First, I think that number is probably 21 (all member states of the Arab League minus Somalia), and second, that is WP:NONDEFINING. We recently established a consensus to rename Category:Arabic-speaking countries and territories to Category:Countries and territories where Arabic is an official language precisely for this reason.

There is so much generalisation, arbitrariness and subjective inclusion and exclusion going on when it comes to grouping countries as "Arab", "Arabic" or even "Arabian". Take Chad. Only 15.8% of Ethnic groups in Chad self-identify as "Arabs". Chadian Arabic is spoken by about 2 million people, while Languages of Chad states that Standard Arabic is spoken by around 615,000 speakers. Meanwhile, the Sara people speaking mostly Sara languages (unrelated to Arabic) dominate the population of Chad with about 5,311,303 (30.5%). But: Arabic is an official language of the country. Do we count it amongst "the Arab world" or not? It's not a member of the Arab League. It has observer status, but so does Venezuela, and that doesn't make Venezuela part of "the Arab world" either, does it?

Something similar may be said about South Sudan, which until its 2011 independence was also often regarded as part of "the Arab world" because it was part of Sudan. What about Somalia? It's an Arab League member but its main language is Somali. What about Somaliland? And so on.

And that's before we get to all non-Arabic minorities within the other countries. There's a reason why I bring up Iraqi Kurds (about c. 15–25% of all Iraqis, depending on how you count) to counter the generalisation that all Iraqi artists are "Arab" artists. They're not. Invoking WP:SUBCAT doesn't do justice to millions of non-Arab people in Arab-majority countries, including about 10 million Kurds in Iraq and Syria alone. This is just mixing up the Category:People by ethnicity and Category:People by nationality trees; we shouldn't do that. Just because a majority of their compatriots is a native speaker of the Arabic language does not mean we should go around categorising Iraqi Kurdish artists as "Arabs".

We've been applying that principle for several months now, and long before I got involved with CFD in February this year, as the September 2022 Category:People from the Russian Empire precedent shows. I don't see why or how we should be making an exception when it comes to Arab people. This nom is a logical follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 15#Arabs and Arab people, as well as many other related discussions such as renaming Category:Arabic-speaking countries and territories, wherein we already established consensus.
Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I might add the following hypothetical: If the Kurdistan Region/Iraqi Kurdistan achieved independence tomorrow (and does not apply for membership or observer status of the Arab League or anything), would we be justified in categorising it as part of "the Arab world", or not? If not, why would we be justified in categorising it as part of "the Arab world" today?

Compare this with the 2011 independence of South Sudan (which thereby left the Arab League), and how this has changed perceptions about how it is not part of "the Arab world"; either "not anymore", or maybe it "never really was"? The point, and the problem for us as Wikipedians, is that it is arguable either way, and thus subjective and arbitrary, and thus a term like "the Arab world" is unfit for Wikipedia categorisation purposes. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 14:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was purging nationality-based Category:Palestinian people from ethnicity-based Category:Palestinians but was reverted by User:Iskandar323. --Yelysavet (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion does not appear to be about that, but ... modern Palestinians in the sense of people with Palestinian nationality are a subset of the wider ethnic group defined as "Palestinian". Iskandar323 (talk) 09:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:Iskandar323, no, they are not. Palestinians are only one of the Category:Ethnic groups in the State of Palestine. --Yelysavet (talk) 09:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That sub-category could just be bad, so it's not really demonstrative of anything. "Palestinian", as an ethnicity, is based on geography and shared language and culture. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:09, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This discussion somewhat cuts to the heart of Arab identity, and is the source of ongoing discussion at Arabs too - the question being how best to define "Arab" with respect to the sources as an ethnic group that leans so heavily on language that by some definitions, anyone sufficiently fluent in Arabic language and culture is effectively an Arab: these broader definitions often include modern day Druze, Kurds and Arab Christians, even if those communities have different ideas about themselves. The broad definition would appear to the sense here, with Arab people being a contraction of "Arab-speaking people from the Arab world", e.g. Arab artists are Arab-speaking artists from Arab-speaking countries. Given that Arabic is the unambiguous lingua franca in most Arab world countries, this is not a huge stretch or liberty really. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is a stretch because Druze and Kurds are an ethnicity of their own. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Druze are often described as an Arab ethnoreligious group, i.e. a sub-group, including on our page here, but Kurds are admittedly a bit more of a stretch. I guess it depends on whether the majoritarian principle expounded above by Fayenatic exists. I don't have an answer to that. The possibility of adding in the sub-layer "People from the Arab World" suggested by Fayenatic also occurred to me as a possible workaround. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, Nationality means both "belonging to one state" and "belonging to the ethnic, historic group of people"; so there is nothing wrong with Iraqi people being a subcategory of the Arab people category. Marcelus (talk) 12:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 14:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus: I am not following how your comment leads to a conclusion to the problem at hand. The problem is about Kurds, Copts, Berbers etc. who are not Arabs but still in this category tree. What is your view on that problem? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Kurds in Iraq aren't in this category tree, afaik Marcelus (talk) 21:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Category:Arab people -> Category:Iraqi people -> Category:Iraqi people by ethnic or national origin -> Category:Iraqi people of Middle Eastern descent -> Category:Kurds in Iraq. By the way, I do not believe that Iraqi Kurds belong in a descent subcategory, but that is a different discussion. The point is that they belong in the tree of Iraqi people.Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I created the Category:People of the Arab world to avoid any confusion with the Category:Arab groups. I apologize for only now noticing this discussion. In certain countries, there already exist pairs of categories for ethnicity and nationality. For example, we have Category:Baharna vs Category:Bahraini people, Category:Sudanese Arabs vs Category:Sudanese people, Category:Palestinians vs Category:Palestinian people. I believe that the term "People of the Arab World" is more appropriate than "Arab people", as the latter is synonymous with "Arabs". --Puddefoot (talk) 14:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:11th-century establishments in Ukraine

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Category:11th-century establishments in Ukraine

Category:African-American cabinetmakers

The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 20:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:African-American cabinetmakers to Category:African-American artisans and Category:American cabinetmakers

Nominator's rationale: Dual merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Only 2 articles. User:Namiba 14:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge for now, without objection to recreation when the category can be populated with a handful of articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question - I realize that they are not curently tagged, butCategory:African-American artisans and its subcats, would seem to fall afoul of WP:OCEGRS? - jc37 17:47, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, maybe not. Given the history of segregation in the US, it is likely that there are sufficient sources which discuss African-American artisans as a unique topic.--User:Namiba 19:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Categories with disallowed fraction characters

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Categories with disallowed fraction characters

Category:Fellows of the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics

The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 20:20, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose Deleting Category:Fellows of the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:V, WP:NONDEFINING & WP:OCAWARD

The International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics article makes no mention of having fellows and the only article in this category, Petr Vaníček, makes only an unsourced mention of this award within a list of other fellowships so it doesn't seem defining. Normally I listify award categories before I ever nominate them, but there wasn't much to work with here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as emptied. I looked up Petr Vaníček and see it is a translation hiccup. He is a member of the societies listed, not specifically fellow. - Altenmann >talk 19:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Retracted; due diligence shows that the IUGG does have fellowship. i.e., as usual, wikipedia is not a reliable source :-) - Altenmann >talk 03:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yes, this category has been emptied even though it was brought to CFD to debate what should happen with it, rendering this week-long discussion rather pointless. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Entry Restored. - Altenmann >talk 03:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- William Richard Peltier, Gordon McBean, Lawrence A. Mysak, Antonio Busalacchi Jr. and a few more are also swell fellows, if that makes any difference. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:52, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Category now has 7 members.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 15:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Clicked through the other articles listed by Altenmann do mention this but generally in passing with other honours so it doesn't seem defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 14:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The rationale hasn't changed because a few more articles have been added. Nor has my vote changed. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, SMALLCAT wasn't a deletion rationale in the nom. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Geography of Northwestern Europe

The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Geography of Europe. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 20:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Northwestern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Northern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Western Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Southwestern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Southern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Southeastern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Eastern Europe to Category:Geography of Europe
Propose upmerging Category:Geography of Central Europe to Category:Geography of Europe

Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT, follow-up to long series of precedents such as Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 7#Category:Northwestern European countries.

Upmerge all actual regions (e.g. Category:Geography of Ireland) to Category:Geography of Europe by region; and

Purge all countries (e.g. Category:Geography of the Republic of Ireland) because they are already in Category:Geography of Europe by country.

Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle but the merge targets should be Category:Geography of Europe (not "by region") and e.g. Category:Northwestern Europe. Surely purge the country subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've just PRODded Northwestern Europe. A closeup analysis revealed it to be a bunch of WP:SYNTH by a now-blocked user driven by confirmation bias. The article is worthless, and so is the category Category:Northwestern Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've also PRODded Southwestern Europe. I don't think we can keep this. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 14:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nederlandse Leeuw: I suggest we merge it as I suggested before, while afterwards you can propose dispersing Category:Northwestern Europe to North and West in a different nomination with a different rationale. Better not make it too complicated. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah wait, I get it now. Target amended to Category:Geography of Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:11th-century women rulers

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Category:11th-century women rulers

Category:Rabbis by country

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1#Category:Rabbis by country