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I am going to make the Russian Revolution and Revolution of 1905 sub-cats.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Do we really want to limit this to homeless people? In some fantast ans science fiction settings you can have homeless characters who are not Human. In parts of both of these genres, as well as some children's stories, you have non-human characters who fit under basically any ethnic, occupational or any other subdivision of characters one could dream of. I would go so far as to say in most fiction hamaness is assumed, and in the genres where it is not, it is often a work by work difference in what humanness means. The extreme is Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and Goofy. Who are animal characters but most logically fit into the general hierarchy for human characters, while Mickey Mouse has a dog named Pluto who fits into the general hierarchy for animals. People too often seem to want to match fiction and reality categories. The problem is that what is defining for a real person is not always defining for a fictional character. A real person who is a prince that is defining, not always in fiction. On the other hand some occupations like pawn shop owner are more likely to connect to a notable character in fiction than a notable person in real life.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Up merging will still result in these 2 caregories having 1 article between them. The article is already in Japanese novelists, and in ither by century xategories related tk writing. I think just deleting these categories would ve best.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should not this categories contents also go to Republic of Venice writers. I think we should rename that to Writers from the Republic of Venice, and we should make it clear in the sub-cats that we are referring to the Republic of Venice, not the city of Venice. This is a common problem, we have similar lack of clarity Lower down in Genoese and Neopolitan categories, that are referring to the Republic of Genoa and the Kingdom of Naples, not the cities if the same name. This has lead to 19th-century Neopolitan prleople not only having articles on people born after the Kingdom of Naples ceased to exist in 1816, but some articles on people born after 1861 when it became part of the Kingdom of Italy. I get it, calling people from Naples "Neopolitan" is standard. I think the assumption is that "we do not use demonyms for people from areas that are not independent states", but if that was actually universally known we could use Georgian for those from the Republic of Georgia because people would know there was no way Georgian referred to the US state. The reality is that people use demonyms in reliable sources at times for cities, various sub-nationsl units, and countries. They also use the same terms for ethnicities, groupings of nationals of various countries, and other things. On the other hand Wikipedia categories are not by shared name, but by unified thing. The clearest exam is that Turkish, Turkic and Turk have been used interchangeably, and that reliable sources in the 19th and early 20th century called the Ottoman Empire "Turkey". However the modern nation state of Turkey is so fundamentally different from the Ottoman Empire that we, following the conventions in current reliable sources, refer to things before 1923 as the Ottoman Empire, and place people in "People from the Ottoman Empire" and its sub-cats. Turkish is reserved as a demonym for nationals of Turkey. We need to ensure categories group thinks that are alike, not just things that have the same name. At the same time in the cases of several countries they changed a name, but in ways that did not lead to fundamental changes to the country. So Thailand and Siam are one unit for nationslity purposes, the same with Benin and Dahomey, although colonial and pre-colonial Dahomey is distinct, Rhodesia is not Zimbabwe, and people who were from East Pakistan would not go in a Bangladeshi Category if they died or emigrated before Bangladesh was formed, and if they were a notable sport player from 1957-1969 and then vanished totally from the public sphere they would not. Some of these issues are tricky and end up being contradictory. We for example seem to treat all nationals of Yugoslavia from 1918-1992 as one group, even though the name is actually different pre-1927, the country collapses in a way in World War II, and there is totally government change with World War II, and minor boundary changes, yet the 1992 changes are deemed so great that we treat post-1992 Yugoslavia as a distinct country, even though the same people ran it in 1990 and 1995. That decision was much debated. One closing thought, it is not just the demonyms connected with former counties in what is now Italy (although the Republic of Venice controlled areas outside I'm what is today Italy, as did the Republic of Genoa). I also suspect any Category that has Hessian, Bavarian, Prussian, Wallachian or Moldavian in the name is too ambiguous, and in some cases assuming this was a clear identity in ways it may not have been. There may well be others.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:01, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This attempt to destroy this category in favor of the very odd categories that merge Upper Canada and Canada West / Lower Canada and Canada East seems to go against the actual article structure we have. We have a category Province of Canada people, we do not have categories for Canada East or Canada West categories. We do not even have an article on Canada West, just a brief paragraph that mentions it without really saying anything about it in Province of Canada. However, if this category is not kept it should be upmerged back to Province of Canada people since its contents are currently diffused out of that category. I also think that if we are going to categorize lawyers by things like Upper Canada and Lower Canada, and insist that Canada East and Canada West lawyers are distinct, that we should not have one category covering both Upper Canada and Canada West, but have 2 sperate categories. We have other categories that categorize lawyers in a political unit as a unit, even when there are distinct political systems. For some places, like Ancient Greece and Al-Andalus we have lots of categories that group people together where there was no political unity, the Province of Canada had actual political unity. If Canada West was more than just a common use designation of the former Upper Canada, we really should have an article on the topic.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for the suggestion of allowing me to express an opinion on this issue.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think you are right that individual biographies should not be categorized as triplets. I think the same applies for twins. We have way too many individual biographies in twin categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am beginning to wonder for this is a coherent way to organize films. Too often fictional works are set in places that the creators know little to nothing about, and so the works say little about anything in their purported setting. I am thinking it might be better to name categories to things like Fooian films about x, so we do noylt have to worry about where the films are set. Some films have unclear settings as well.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All the current contents of Kazakh aviators would fit in a category named Soviet Kazakh people, patterned after Soviet Kurdish people and under Soviet people by ethnicity. These people were aviators in the Soviet Union, so they were often living and working outside the Kazakh Soviet Republic. There seems to be in sources pointing out these people are Kazakh by ethnicity, not that they come from areas part of the Kazakh Soviet Republic. Many people in that Reoublic were non-Kazakhs, and people living in other areas of the Soviet Union do not losses Kazakhness.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kazakhstan only has existed in any meaningful way since 1936 at the earliest when the Kazakh Soviet Repylublic was formed. Before that there is no Kazakstan. So people who were Kazakh who lived in the Russian Empire can only be described as ethnic Kazakh, since there is no geographical unit of Kazakhstan. We probably xould have a Category named Ethnic Kazakh people from the Russian Empire or Kazakh people from the Russian Empire as a subcat of People from the Russian Empire by ethnicity. Both in the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union you will have people of various ethnic groups move to areas where there are few people of their ethnic group, especially major Metropolitan cities, and live there, but still identify with a particular ethnic group. More so under the ethnicity obsessed Soviet authorities than under the old Russian Empire, but some under both. The Kazakh Soviet Republic was also less than half ethnically Kazakh from at least 1945, and Kazakhs do not become a majority in Kazakhstan until at least 1995. So the Kazakh people do not map well on the population of Kazakhstan. Because of the ease of movement back and not crossing borders, it is hard to say someone is "of Kazakh descent" and not Kazakh, even if they are born in Moscow or St. Petersburg in 1905 or in Moscow or Leningrad in 1950. It is really only after 1991 that it becomes reasonable to say that we can call anyone in areas beyond Kazkastan "of Kazakh descent", at least if thry are in the same country as the base main area of Kazakh population. Kazakhs in Europe, the Americas, and India might be "of Kazakh descent", but what if someone is the child of Ukraininans moved to the Kazakh Soviet Republic by Stalin, who then emigrated to Argentina? Does Kazakh/Kazakhstan descent mean ancestors in the area of the Kazakh Soviet Republic, at least after its birth, ancestors who self -identified as ethnic Kazakh or would be so identified in reliable sources, or maybe both? And if it means both, are we actually categorizing by shared name and not shared character?John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I meant to place my statement above, here. Sorry I misplaced it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

(talk page stalker) I'm not sure which discussion this refers to, but you must be aware that Kazakh refers to people of Kazakh ethnicity, while Kazakhstani refers to people from Kazakhstan. See e.g. the introduction of Demographics of Kazakhstan. Place Clichy (talk) 12:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• In about 1960 only 30% of the population of the Kazakh Soviet Republic was Kazakh. Ethnic Russians were 42% of the population, with notable numbers of ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Uzbeks and others.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There are now mass nominations against the subcats of Colony of New South Wales people. None of these even include upmerging to Colony of New South Wales people. There is no reason given to remove them from that tree. In the case of Lawyers from the Colony of New South Wales there is not even an attempt to explain why there is an objection to the categorizing of lawyers by the political unit thry operated in. Also if the proposal were to go through the attorneys General and judges sub-cats would be removed from the Colony of New South Wales tree. I am positive that virtually every single article in this whole tree involves someone for whom being a resident of the Colony of New South Wales is defining.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Johnpacklambert: we do not diffuse French lawyers by kingdom of France, French Empire and French Republic. By what logic would New South Wales be different? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:20, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Prior to 1901 there is no political structure less than the British Empire that the lawyers are operating in. The Colony of New South Wales is a separate political entity where the lawyers are operating. After 1901 they are integrated into the Australian legal system, but there is no Australua wide legal system pre-1901.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  We also found not divide French judges by what government thry served under, yet we have Colony of New South Wales judges.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• My biggest point though is that these people clearly fir the rubric of the Colony of New South Wales people Category, are there is absolutely no reason to remove them from it as long as that Category exists.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

With the Englush language writers cat, we only apply it to people from countries where English language writing is not dominant. The analogy to television shows is imperfect. Even with writers it gets tricky. Do we have a Category English language books, and what are it's inclusion rules. With TV shows, books and any other thing one makes can be in multiple languages, most works have a dominant language. Most writers write in one language, but some write in multiple languages. A few in the same work, but others in different works. So for example even a Spanish-language writer from the United States may have produced Emglish-language works. Victor Villasenor comes to mind in this regard, except I thing most of his Spanish material was stuff he wrote in Englush first and later published in Spanish. For what it is worth I am unconvinced that we should have the singers by language Category. It is possible to song well, sing in notable ways, and sing in ways that get you recognition in a language, while having no understanding of it, at one time such was done by lots of opera singers, and I am sure there are other examples. I believe there are a few people in half a dozen language singer cats, but almost no one in more than 2 language writer cats. I am also pretty sure the only actor by language categories we have relate to India where we have distinct language cinema traditions. We have resisted putting Gal Gadot in Israeli English language actresses, and we could come up with lots more examples. It sounds like a plan for lots more trivial categories. I am thinking the base assumption is a film of TV show has the dominant language of the country of production. Some works are connected to multiple countries, and some are not in the dominant language. So Soanish-language television shows from the US would be defining, and if they exist English language television shows from India, but a Spanish language Mexican or Argentine TV show is not defining.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, thanks for the closing decision. How does the closing work? Does it happen automatically, or do I need to request it somehow? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz: it will be done by an administrator, probably within a couple of days. You do not need to do something. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:47, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Thanks. I am completely unfamiliar with this process; learning as I go along. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 03:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am wondering why we could not just merge the one article to Writers from the Republic of Venice and Novelists. We do not need to put every single article in a by nationslity category for every dingle specified occupation. The odd view we need yo is why we have so many 1 article categories. I may have more comments shortly.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The one article in "Republic of Venice" novelists is actually on a writer who wrote what is evidently considered "the first Croatian novel". He lived all his life that we seem to know of in a city in the Republic of Venice, in an area that is now part of Croatia. His novel was published in Venice itself, but after his death. The article we have on him suggests dome things may indicate that studied law, so it appears we do not actually know all the details of his life. Calling this writer in particular "Italian" I think is hard. The border of Italy and the extent it covered parts of the Adratic were highly contested in the 20th century. However acting like all Territories of the Republic of Venice were part of "Italy" I think is at best a violation of NPOV rules, and at worst just plain unworkable. The same occurs in the west. Was everything in Savoy and the Republic of Genoa part of Italy? Is all territory under the Republic of Venice the Republic of Venice, and all territory under the Reoublic of Genia the Republic of Genoa, or is there some distinction between the home region of the Republic and its Territories? Another issue here is do we need to categorize writers by every work they created, or does that at times venture off into performer by performance Category? Here in this case calling the subject and novelists seems to work, but the number of Wikipedia articles in over 50 categories and occasionally over 100 tells me we are missing something about the need to have categories be defining. Winston Churchill is in over 100 categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Someone here said "a British professor is a higher rank than an American professor". I know what thry mean, but I am not sure that is the right way to put it. In the US there are full professors, assistant professors, and associate professors, and some will even call adjunct faculty professors. At least in common usage professor means any academic staff member at a tertiary institution of higher education. In the 19th century the term was also used for academic staff at the secondary level, especially those teaching music. The two fictional professors I can think up the fastest are Professir Haralf Hill, who is a conman, but he is presenting h8mself as a credentialed teacher of maybe what we would now consider middle school boys in music. The others I can think of are Professor Dumbledore, who is headmaster of a British secondary school teaching children ages 11-18. The next person I can think of is Indiana Jones. He is an actual instructor at a university in his fictional settings, and we do on occasion see him in a classroom setting, but just as much we see him doing Academic research, although most of what he does does not really fit in normal academic activity at all. There is the issue that some fictional professors we will only ever see in the setting doing the teaching side of their job, and not the research side, some we might not even know their specialty, but those will tend to not in general be characters that have articles. We are much more likely to gave a character who is the topic specialist appearing in a court room or otherwise showing up to lend his or her expert knowledge, who we are told is a professor at Harvard, Princeton, UC Berkley, Medfield or anywhere else, but who we do not see teach. There is Edward Brainerd, the "Absent Minded Professor" of the film of the same name, who we actually do see teaching a class, but the film mainly revolves around his work as a experimental research scientists, so he clearly fits in the academics Category. I think the upshot her is that professor borders on shared mame, bring used to group many different educators, broadly defined, at different levels, who are not really a cohesive group of those called professors.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi there! As a frequent contributor to WP:CFD whose opinions I respect, I was wondering what you thought of Category:Comedy film directors? To me it seems dubious for reasons similar to those outlined at WP:PERFCAT, and I guess I wonder whether it's really a WP:DEFCAT, but I didn't want to initiate a CfD without getting some support first, as it could become rather sprawling. See also Category:Film directors by genre. Thanks for letting me know what you think! DonIago (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Doniago: I do not have a firm opinion about it right now. Probably you will get the question: why would you single out comedy film directors and not nominate any sibling categories in Category:Film directors by genre? Marcocapelle (talk) 14:16, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Sorry, I was a little unclear there. Comedy film directors was just the first one I noticed, after someone added Bryan Singer to it (I've since reverted that, as I didn't see any comedy films listed in his filmography). I guess the question rather is whether the entire Film directors by genre tree is problematic, whether only some of the subcategories such as Comedy film directors may be problematic, or whether none of them are problematic, but ultimately I'm left questioning why it would be okay to categorize directors by genre but not actors by genre; as you're probably aware, I don't think it's okay to categorize actors by genre, but am leery of a directors by genre CfD getting more pushback. Thanks again! DonIago (talk) 14:27, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Doniago: you will probably get more outspoken opinions about this at WT:FILM. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:39, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    Outspoken opinions may be what I was hoping to avoid. :p But I'll take it under advisement. DonIago (talk) 14:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I just noticed that a lot of people are in 4 or more different categories as Fooian expatriate sportspeople in boo. This seems excessive. Especially since some of these cases were less than 1 year. It gets worse though. In some cases these people are then in Expatriate football players cats for each of these boos. So we end up with 8 articles (plus in some cases more for specific teams). In at least cases with 3 or more countries of being expatriate sports players it would seem much better to just have the article in fooian expatriate sportspeople and then maybe expatriate sportsmen in x cats. The current system creates excessive categories that are also very small.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a Category with 62 sub-categories. 31 of them have 1 article. Most are also said to be sub-cats of "college football coaches in the US". I am skeptical that football teams at a military base are "college football" teams. Yes, there is overlap, but it seems at least some is a function of World War II era mobilization. There is also overlap between college and high school coaches, and between college and professional coaches. Coaches switch level in their careers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bob Friedlund is an interesting illustration of this. The article is weak, and weaker on dates. It hides most information in a table. Per the table he was a coach in 1943 of an army base team. In 1946 he was a player at Michigan State. He then went to the NFL, was downgraded to the lower AFL team after a season, and then a few years later became an assistant College coach. He was later assistant coach at 2 or 3 other colleges. Just because his players at the military base level are adults does not make this college coaching.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:16, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have created another layer of categories under College football coaches in the United States. We already have one for junior colleges with 250 or do direct articles and a few sub-cats. I have now created a NCAA Division III college football coaches in the United States. Both the coaches in this category were coaching well after the 1973 creation of Division III so they can clear go in the direct Category. This category as such is too small to be helpful for navigation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:12, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think on the UC San Diego related discussion you meant to say football, not soccer. It is about a gridiron football coaches category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 09:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Category:American English-language television shows has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This category has about 250 articles in it directly, so it is not a conrltainer category. It has 163 sub-cats. 63 of them have 1 article each. A bunch more have only 2 or 3 articles. In some cases the college in question has multiple categories of coach by deport with just 1 article. This tree seems to hinder rather than help navigation as currently organized.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There are 226 sub-cats of this category with less than 5 articles. A few of these are for players on military base teams. Most are just at colleges that have not turned out many notable players. The parent has only one direct cat, but there is no particular reason to not directly populate it. I am also not sure that in all cases playing college football is defining. We once in a while have a politician or otherwise notable person who was on a college team but not at all remarkable for it. Some may not have played in any games. Most of these articles are on people who were at least known as college players in their time, but not all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 6 § Category:Years in the Kingdom of Naples by year on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 00:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm assuming the script you're running is basing it off filming location categories, but most of the categories you've changed (adding "Canadian") have been incorrect. I've fixed the ones on my watchlist from Canadian to American, but you're currently running AWB. Filming location does not mean "country of origin", but who the production companies are, as tons of American series are filmed in Canada. You just have to take a look at the lede, infobox and other categories, and most of them will all say "American" or United States as country of origin. Just a heads-up. Thanks. Drovethrughosts (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, I just came across Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_December_15#Category:Establishments_in_the_Kingdom_of_Dahomey_by_century, where you stated that "the articles are already appropriately in Category:1843 establishments in Africa and Category:1889 establishments in Africa and we do not usually put articles about still existing organizations directly in a year or century category."

That's a new one on me – can you point to precedents for that approach, please?

It also appears contradictory, as 1843 establishments is a year category! – Fayenatic London 18:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Fayenatic london: apparently I wasn't clear enough. I meant to say, we normally do not have (dis)establishment articles directly in a year, decade or century category because we always have them in a (dis)establishment subcategory of year, decade or century. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ah, I see, thank you. Well, if I had spotted the nomination before it was closed, I would have voted to keep a C19 category in the Benin establishments tree, even for just two current articles. – Fayenatic London 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I know I have seen some people who were both in German Bohemian categories, and in various Czech by occupation categories, who died before 1918. I figure while we may allow Czech categories for ethnic Czechs before 1918, we should not place people who were ethnically German in these categories, and we need to have reliable sourcing on it. Basically all Czech cats applied before 1918 need to meet standard ERGS rules. I did create a categoriy for Czechs in Austria-Hungary, I forget what it is named, and do not dare guess at it because an editor might try to take me to ANI for accidentally misspelling it here. Part of me wonders if it really makes sense to have Czech categories cover both nationals of the Czech republic, regardless of ethnicity, and people of Czech ethnicity, regardless of what country they lived in. I do sort of see how there is a large overlap, at least from Czechoslovakia to the Czech Republic, and in many cases it is just more convenient. However pre-1945 there were lots of non-Czechs in the Czech Republic, and pre-1918 even more so. In the 1840s many Germans considered Bohemia just as much a part of Germany as Silesia, Saxony or anywhere else. Considering that parts of Saxony were Sorbian speaking, and other issues of langauge and ethnicity, they were not right or wrong, it is just later events caused a different course. Right now we have some People from Bohemia categories as well. Those are less developed. At least in the 19th-century, many of the notable people in arts, sciences, education and related fields who lived parts of their life in Bohemia also lived in other parts of the Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary, often moving from Prague to Vienna, but there are lots of other movements as well. So for many people in these fields categorizing them by a particular part of the Empire would only lead to us needing to put them in many categorizes. While we could say they were an artists from Bohemia if born there, if they produced most of their paintings in Vienna that seems less than accurate. The fact that I am building these categories while moving backwards through birth categories also means I do not know what the total size of the categories will be when I am done. I have for the last several months tried to ensure any category I start can have at least 5 articles, I backed off on I think Diarists from Austria-Hungary when I realized that it was not going to get to 5 articles, but I do not know how big some may eventually grow.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi. I oppose to renaming of "Category:Turkish secularists" to "Category:Turkish critics of religions". (It's about this topic.) In Turkey, "secularist" is largely used to refer to people who stand for the separation of religious matters or ideas and state, and oppose to Islamization of society and state. This is quite different to being a "critic of religion". There are Turkish secularists who believe in Islam or other religions. Aybeg (talk) 17:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Qwerfjkl: if you have no objection, I'll reverse the renaming of that one on the same grounds as Israeli. May I document this as an addition to your closure? – Fayenatic London 22:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would like to express an opinion in general: It is completely erroneous to rename the categories of "secularists" as "critics of religion" for all nations. For defending secularism and criticising a religion or the concept of religion itself are two different actions. There should be two separate categories for these two subjects. Aybeg (talk) 06:18, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fayenatic london, I have no objection. — Qwerfjkltalk 11:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Marcocapelle, can I ask a favour? I'm trying to establish a new category for disestablishments in Canada East in the 1860s. There already is a category for disestablishments in Canada East in the 1850s: "Category:1850s disestablishments in Canada East". However, I don't understand the syntax to establish the category, which would be a sub-cat of "Disestablishments in Canada East by decade". I've started by creating a category for "1861 disestablishments in Canada East", which I added to the article I want to include in the category: Montreal (Province of Canada electoral district). But I don't know how to link that category to a category for "1860s disestablishments in Canada East", and then linked further up. Could you take a look at it? Thanks. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 17:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz: maybe your problem is that Category:1860s disestablishments in Canada East already exists but was redirected by its page creator Tutwakhamoe to Category:1860s disestablishments in Canada. Canada East lasted until 1867. In the final decade of the history of a territory etc, we can either have a separate category for the decade in that territory, or use the decade category for the successor – practice varies from case to case according to what seems most useful. If you think an 1860s category for Canada East will be useful, either because there is plenty to put in it or because the distinction is important, then edit the redirected page and overwrite it based on the 1850s category. ( – TPS) – Fayenatic London 22:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Thanks, but I don’t know how to do that. I think it makes sense to keep Canada East as a separate category because it is more accurate historically. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 22:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz:  Done, I reinstated the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    Thanks very much! I find the syntax for categories rather confusing, and appreciate the help. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 08:56, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    You need to populate such categories promptly, otherwise Liz tags them as empty. – Fayenatic London 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    I’ve listed the two that I’m aware of, off the top of my head (Montreal and Quebec electoral districts). I expect I will have more as I continue working on my project in this area. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 15:20, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We have 296 categories and 69 articles. I am wondering if this is enough to divide at least some by state. With 50 states, it seems you need at least 250 articles to be able to get 5 per state. However with huge variations in US state size, population and number of colleges, it is really unreasonable to demand all states. California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio and a few other states though have enough colleges that subdivision to them works. I did a subdivision of the College track and field coaches in the United States to several states. All the subcats have at least 5 articles either in them or in sub-cats, I did I think 18 States. I have to admit I though track and field coaches would mainly be notable as Olympic competitors. The reality is most areainly football coaches.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:16, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

half or more of the colleges that have categories for men's soccer coaches have 4 or fewer articles in the category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:23, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Does pre-1860 Italy get built on the borders of Itsly in 1863, 1875, 1925 or 1955? Each one is different. We already have the odity thst Savoy is often being treated as French, yet it was a Savoy based royal family who united Italy, and Savoy was most definately not part of Fremance until around 1860. Trento is most definately not Italian until after World War I, but Trieste I belive in teikier. In 1710 is domething hsppening in Corsica occuring in Italy? I havd to admit that I have to wonder if we cannot build a large enough category around an actually existing political until pre-1860 if we should just upmerge the articles to Europe categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I just wanted to point out, that you reverted the category back in by accident (at least I assume so, seeing as your initial edit was removing it). – 143.208.236.146 (talk) 09:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I just realized we still have a category named tgis because it was missed when the other people by territory cats were renamed to using from.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:08, 11 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nominated.[1] – Fayenatic London 22:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Despite this recent CfD closing with a consensus in favour of the upmerging you set out, Giovanni 0331 has gone ahead and implemented their proposal instead. That is, today they created Category:LGBT people by nationality and identity and its 44 subcategories, then moved all the categories like Category:American gay men into the new "by identity" categories.

Because this was done in direct rejection of the CfD outcome, I am assuming it can be undone without a fresh CfD. Do you know if there is any way to automate undoing it? It involves hundreds of edits.

They also created Category:LGBT people by identity and nationality, which is contrary to the outcome of another recent CfD, though less egregiously so.--Trystan (talk) 00:20, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• @Trystan and Fayenatic london: would this call for direct administrator intervention? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • It would to delete all the categories, which can probably be speedied under G6. — Qwerfjkltalk 11:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Agreed. Following up at User talk:Giovanni 0331#CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 2 § LGBT people by sexual orientation and nationality. – Fayenatic London 11:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Category:People from the Republic of Geneva has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mason (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should we call these ethnic groups Burmese when the country took the name Myanmar. Maybe we should call the Mon people from Myanmar, Karen people from Myanmar, etc? My understanding is that one reason for the rename is that Burmese is simetimes taken to refer to the Burman, which none of these people are.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:31, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This category only has 3 articles. Ot would seem to make more sense to upmerge it to College men's track and field athletes in the United States and Miami Hurricanes athletes.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]