User:Rockstone35/list of banned users – There is no consensus about whether the speedy deletion was appropriate. in such cases, we generally refer the page to XfD, which is what I am doing. Sandstein 14:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
User:Rockstone35/list of banned users (talk`\|`edit`\|`history`\|`logs`\|`links`\|`watch) (XfD`\|`restore) I contested the speedy deletion, and the page was restored. Another admin has speedily deleted it without addressing the reasons for contesting its deletion and has thus far not responded to my attempts to communicate with them. If it is the consensus of the community that this page, which is in user space, should not exist, then that's okay, but I would like for consensus to actually be established before a deletion occurs. At the very least, it shouldn't have been speedily deleted without a consensus being built. Rockstonetalk to me! 20:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Overturn CSD. WP:G4 requires that the page be substantially identical to the deleted version, and that it is not a user space copy. This fails both of those. I can't see any reason why somebody wants to maintain this list, but I also can't see any reason to object to it. And, even if somebody does have a good reason to object to it, take it to WP:MfD. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Roy, where G4 discusses userspace, it says it excludes things in userspace "...for explicit improvement". I can't see this article, but my sense is this isn't an article being improved, but something intended to live in user space. Would you agree with that? Hobit (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] The lead is identical except for paragraph breaks. The idea that you can claim a list is nonidentical in substance because, while you don't include any of the entries that were on the deleted version, you link to an offsite archive of the deleted version, is patently absurd. And while G4 exempts material moved to userspace for explicit improvement, listing "newer bans" is not an improvement in the context of the discussion at MFD. This isn't even a close call. Endorse. —Cryptic 00:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse deletion per Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee, where the consensus was to place Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee under the sole discretion of "of any Arbitrator or Clerk. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)". As ArbCom has purview over all banned users (note that Wikipedia:Clean start excludes clean starts for blocked or banned users), that decision should apply to all lists of Banned Users. Other's maintaining live lists of banned users are too much of a privacy problem, and no random user should have good reason to maintain this negative list (cf WP:POLEMIC). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Or is it a WP:LTA matter? compare Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/List. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse The intent here is obviously to maintain, in some form, a list of banned users. The community said very clearly it did not want that in a series of MFDs. Normally userfying stuff that was in project space is fine, but this case is an obvious exception as we have a pre-existing consensus that this material should not be hosted on Wikipedia at all, and that discussion was clearly cited in the deletion log. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I think I may be missing something. I see 6 MfDs. I believe all but the last resulted in "keep". Was there some other discussion I missed? Thanks! Hobit (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] You're not missing anything. It's kind of crazy that a single MFD can result in a deletion of an article and past decisions can be ignored. It's like retrying someone in a court of law until you get the result you want. I really disagree that there ever was consensus for it in the first place. But of course, if consensus is against me, I'll have no choice but to abide by it. I still think whether or not WP:LOBU should be recreated in the project namespace should be discussed somewhere where more eyes can see it, though. Rockstonetalk to me! 20:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] WP:CCC. And it did. If you want to change it back, fine, but this is not the way to do so. If you look at those old discussions, you'll see me arguing to keep in one of them, but in the end the community decided it didn't want it. In retrospect I do now agree, but even if I didn't consensus is the primary means of decision making here and the current consensus is that we shouldn't have this. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:11, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I don't really think the consensus did change, as the margins were 33 keep 35 delete. However, that's all in the past, anyway, and consensus could of course change again. I'm not sure where to post if I want to change it back, other than the village pump, where I already posted it. Rockstonetalk to me! 00:36, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse deletion per Cryptic, Beeblebrox, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users (6th nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee etc. -- Begoon 01:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse - This seems to be a straightforwardly-valid G4 speedy deletion. The community legitimately decided to delete the log of banned users as harmful, so continuing to maintain it in one's userspace would seem to directly betray the community's intent, and is undoubtedly an improper use of the userspace anyway per WP:POLEMIC. So, the argument that it's "in my userspace" is not valid. Secondly, the argument that "it should be discussed" is not valid either. The whole point of CSD is that they're uncontentious "quick fail" criteria for pages, and do not require "discussion". If the CSD applies, which it does in this case, then there is nothing more to discuss. ~Swarm~ {talk} 02:10, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse - Banned users are people too, even if their editing puts them at odds with the creation of an encyclopedia. Reaper Eternal (talk) 03:45, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse The close was a correct interpretation of the MfD and a correct reading of community norms. Maintaining lists of bad people provides no benefit for the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 06:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I can't endorse a speedy deletion enforcing a MfD that old. Also, I can't agree with the fallacy that deleting this stuff off the encyclopaedia is in any way helpful. The practical effect of deletions like this is to drive discussion about Wikipedia's governance and procedures off-wiki.—S Marshall T/C 14:43, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] It has been 4.5 years since the MfD. That's long enough it seems reasonable to discuss again, especially considering it was kept 5 times before that deletion in 2014 and the discussion was close (close enough NC was the most obvious close). Does G4 apply? Maybe, I can't see either article. But after 6 tries to delete over the years, one successful one shouldn't end the discussion forever. overturn speedy Hobit (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Have you looked at the previous discussion pages? It requires more assumption of good faith than is healthy to call them six tries to delete. —Cryptic 02:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I see what you mean. I'd not looked closely before, just at the bold !votes and the closes. But it was kept and #5 was a pretty darn strong keep. Hobit (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Honestly I think reversing the MfD should be discussed again, although I have a feeling that the discussion should not be done here in WP:Deletion Review, but rather somewhere that more people can see it. I really was disappointed when the list was deleted the first time, as now it's impossible to tell why someone was banned. It's always possible that someone could make the ban reasons more neutral (perhaps simply a link to the discussion that resulted in their ban, and nothing more). Rockstonetalk to me! 05:20, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] comment. The contrast between MfD5 (20 July 2013) and MfD6 (2 October 2014) is startling. However, the last formal discussion was this (23 October 2014), which although addressing a slightly different scope, and involving far fewer people (including me), I believe should be considered decisive. If it was the wrong decision, that the community generally should not be maintaining this list, then I think it needs a serious discussion, not a unilateral recreation, from unknown sources. A small number of people at Wikipedia_talk:Long-term_abuse#Lists_of_Banned_Users seem to also be saying that such lists are not a good idea. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] It seems like a reasonable thing to send back to MfD after 4.5 years, that's all I'm saying. Hobit (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I second this notion Rockstonetalk to me! 06:08, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Relist- -it's the only way to see the current consensus. Then we can discuss whether or not it should be kept or deleted, not the previous processes and their implications. DGG ( talk ) 16:43, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

User:Rockstone35/list of banned users – There is no consensus about whether the speedy deletion was appropriate. in such cases, we generally refer the page to XfD, which is what I am doing. Sandstein 14:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

I contested the speedy deletion, and the page was restored. Another admin has speedily deleted it without addressing the reasons for contesting its deletion and has thus far not responded to my attempts to communicate with them. If it is the consensus of the community that this page, which is in user space, should not exist, then that's okay, but I would like for consensus to actually be established before a deletion occurs. At the very least, it shouldn't have been speedily deleted without a consensus being built. Rockstonetalk to me! 20:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn CSD. WP:G4 requires that the page be substantially identical to the deleted version, and that it is not a user space copy. This fails both of those. I can't see any reason why somebody wants to maintain this list, but I also can't see any reason to object to it. And, even if somebody does have a good reason to object to it, take it to WP:MfD. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Roy, where G4 discusses userspace, it says it excludes things in userspace "...for explicit improvement". I can't see this article, but my sense is this isn't an article being improved, but something intended to live in user space. Would you agree with that? Hobit (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is identical except for paragraph breaks. The idea that you can claim a list is nonidentical in substance because, while you don't include any of the entries that were on the deleted version, you link to an offsite archive of the deleted version, is patently absurd. And while G4 exempts material moved to userspace for explicit improvement, listing "newer bans" is not an improvement in the context of the discussion at MFD. This isn't even a close call. Endorse. —Cryptic 00:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion per Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee, where the consensus was to place Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee under the sole discretion of
"of any Arbitrator or Clerk. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)".

As ArbCom has purview over all banned users (note that Wikipedia:Clean start excludes clean starts for blocked or banned users), that decision should apply to all lists of Banned Users. Other's maintaining live lists of banned users are too much of a privacy problem, and no random user should have good reason to maintain this negative list (cf WP:POLEMIC). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or is it a WP:LTA matter? compare Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/List. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse The intent here is obviously to maintain, in some form, a list of banned users. The community said very clearly it did not want that in a series of MFDs. Normally userfying stuff that was in project space is fine, but this case is an obvious exception as we have a pre-existing consensus that this material should not be hosted on Wikipedia at all, and that discussion was clearly cited in the deletion log. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I may be missing something. I see 6 MfDs. I believe all but the last resulted in "keep". Was there some other discussion I missed? Thanks! Hobit (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're not missing anything. It's kind of crazy that a single MFD can result in a deletion of an article and past decisions can be ignored. It's like retrying someone in a court of law until you get the result you want. I really disagree that there ever was consensus for it in the first place. But of course, if consensus is against me, I'll have no choice but to abide by it. I still think whether or not WP:LOBU should be recreated in the project namespace should be discussed somewhere where more eyes can see it, though. Rockstonetalk to me! 20:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CCC. And it did. If you want to change it back, fine, but this is not the way to do so. If you look at those old discussions, you'll see me arguing to keep in one of them, but in the end the community decided it didn't want it. In retrospect I do now agree, but even if I didn't consensus is the primary means of decision making here and the current consensus is that we shouldn't have this. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:11, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think the consensus did change, as the margins were 33 keep 35 delete. However, that's all in the past, anyway, and consensus could of course change again. I'm not sure where to post if I want to change it back, other than the village pump, where I already posted it. Rockstonetalk to me! 00:36, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion per Cryptic, Beeblebrox, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users (6th nomination), Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of banned users/Banned by the Arbitration Committee etc. -- Begoon 01:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - This seems to be a straightforwardly-valid G4 speedy deletion. The community legitimately decided to delete the log of banned users as harmful, so continuing to maintain it in one's userspace would seem to directly betray the community's intent, and is undoubtedly an improper use of the userspace anyway per WP:POLEMIC. So, the argument that it's "in my userspace" is not valid. Secondly, the argument that "it should be discussed" is not valid either. The whole point of CSD is that they're uncontentious "quick fail" criteria for pages, and do not require "discussion". If the CSD applies, which it does in this case, then there is nothing more to discuss. ~Swarm~ {talk} 02:10, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Banned users are people too, even if their editing puts them at odds with the creation of an encyclopedia. Reaper Eternal (talk) 03:45, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The close was a correct interpretation of the MfD and a correct reading of community norms. Maintaining lists of bad people provides no benefit for the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 06:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can't endorse a speedy deletion enforcing a MfD that old. Also, I can't agree with the fallacy that deleting this stuff off the encyclopaedia is in any way helpful. The practical effect of deletions like this is to drive discussion about Wikipedia's governance and procedures off-wiki.—S Marshall T/C 14:43, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has been 4.5 years since the MfD. That's long enough it seems reasonable to discuss again, especially considering it was kept 5 times before that deletion in 2014 and the discussion was close (close enough NC was the most obvious close). Does G4 apply? Maybe, I can't see either article. But after 6 tries to delete over the years, one successful one shouldn't end the discussion forever. overturn speedy Hobit (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you looked at the previous discussion pages? It requires more assumption of good faith than is healthy to call them six tries to delete. —Cryptic 02:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - I see what you mean. I'd not looked closely before, just at the bold !votes and the closes. But it *was* kept and #5 was a pretty darn strong keep. Hobit (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Honestly I think reversing the MfD should be discussed again, although I have a feeling that the discussion should not be done here in WP:Deletion Review, but rather somewhere that more people can see it. I really was disappointed when the list was deleted the first time, as now it's impossible to tell why someone was banned. It's always possible that someone could make the ban reasons more neutral (perhaps simply a link to the discussion that resulted in their ban, and nothing more). Rockstonetalk to me! 05:20, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
comment.

The contrast between MfD5 (20 July 2013) and MfD6 (2 October 2014) is startling. However, the last formal discussion was this (23 October 2014), which although addressing a slightly different scope, and involving far fewer people (including me), I believe should be considered decisive. If it was the wrong decision, that the community generally should not be maintaining this list, then I think it needs a serious discussion, not a unilateral recreation, from unknown sources.

A small number of people at Wikipedia_talk:Long-term_abuse#Lists_of_Banned_Users seem to also be saying that such lists are not a good idea. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a reasonable thing to send back to MfD after 4.5 years, that's all I'm saying. Hobit (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I second this notion Rockstonetalk to me! 06:08, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relist- -it's the only way to see the current consensus. Then we can discuss whether or not it should be kept or deleted, not the previous processes and their implications. DGG ( talk ) 16:43, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.