The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 27 March 2019 [1].


1989 Tour de France[edit]

Nominator(s): Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the 76th edition of the Tour de France, a three-week stage cycle race through France. The 1989 edition is known as one of the closest fought and more memorable in the history of the event. The article passed its GA review in late October. Apart from alt captions, not much more work has been done to the article since I felt it met the FA criteria as it is. I am very much looking forward to your suggestions and comments. Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Earlier work on the article has been done by BaldBoris, EdgeNavidad and Socheid. Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

@Nikkimaria: You mean cropping it to focus on Fignon or just making it bigger? Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:53, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just use |upright= to make it bigger. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:02, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I chose factor 1.2, do you think that is big enough? Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:23, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd maybe do 1.3. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:10, 20 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Have added a source for the route on the commons page of the image. Please check if this suffices. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, that's fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Would you give a support for this nomination or do you not weigh in on that? Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not on an image review, no. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie[edit]

A couple of minor notes on source formatting, though I have not done a source review:

From my time at university, I have taken the habit of only listing sources in the bibliography that I reference more than once. That is why I have Moore's biography of Millar and the Chauner & Halstead book only as a footnote. I am unsure if there is an official Wikipedia policy on this, but I find that a good solution for not bloating up the bibliography with books that are not essential for the article topic as a whole. Feel free to disagree though, I am open for debate! Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's fine; just wanted to check it was deliberate. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:20, 1 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, as far as I know, the Historical Guide is given out every year at the Tour and published online by L'Equipe. Since it is not sold, there does not appear to be an ISBN. Will tackle the comments below as soon as I can. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Non-source comments follow. I'm copyediting as I go; please revert if I screw anything up.

Reworded.
Clarified.
@Mike Christie: I would say the lead is quite long already, and the controversy around their usage was mainly on how much benefit they actually gave LeMond rather than wether or not he was allowed to use them. I have however amended the footnote to reflect the history of the regulations concerning this (as far as I could find). Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:37, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.
Fixed.
Done. Also tweaked the wording for Fignon.
Done.
@Mike Christie: Have included that in the footnote above. Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.
Done.
Done.
Done.
I have calculated his average speed and added it. However, I calculated it myself, it does not come from a source. Don't know if that constitutes OR?
I have now given the name of the Tour organisation in the first section.
Clarified.
Nobody really cared about the classification, which is why it was abandoned the year after. That's why there's basically no sources for it. I have expanded upon all of the classification as far as I could.
@Mike Christie: I removed the young rider classification because no jersey was worn, so listing it would have been misleading. I removed the team classification because it had gaps in it and I could not find a source for that information. I am hoping that the stat book that EdgeNavidad mentioned below will give me that information so that I can verify all of that. We'll see, the book should arrive today. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately, no success here, although the book does provide the infos which EdgeNavidad listed below, which I am in the process of including.

Generally this looks pretty clean, and I expect to support once these points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Mike Christie: I think I have tackled everything for now, please see if anything still needs to be done from your point of view. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:51, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Everything looks good with one exception: the point about "LeMond had taken 21 seconds out of Fignon's lead" is that it sounds to the reader as if anyone watching the race would have known this -- that at the halfway mark, it was clear that LeMond had made up 21 seconds. That's not true, though; it wouldn't be known until Fignon reached the half-way mark later. Presumably what happened was everyone could see it was a very fast time trial, but it was Fignon's ride that was the truly exciting one, because that was when the time comparisons could be made. That doesn't come through in this description.
@Mike Christie: Well, the way I have phrased it now, it clearly says "when he [Fignon] reached the half-distance time check"; at which point it was clear what the time difference was. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It currently says When he reached the half-distance time check, LeMond had taken 21 seconds out of his lead. The previous sentences have mentioned both Fignon and LeMond, so I read this as "When LeMond reached". If you make this "When Fignon reached", that would resolve this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mike Christie: Done. Zwerg Nase (talk) 14:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Re the calculation question: no, that's not OR; it's a straightforward calculation so anyone can verify it and it doesn't need a separate source. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support. All the concerns I raised have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:39, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from EdgeNavidad[edit]

I checked if there was (according to my expertise) information missing on this page. I specifically looked at the information on rules and classifications. For reference: I used this book and searched for 1989. I found a few things that are currently wrong in the article, and several details that are currently not in the wikipedia article while I feel they should/might be mentioned:

Clarified, thank you very much for the sources!
According to van den Akker, intermediate sprints did give time bonuses, which I have included. I also included that no time bonuses were given at stage finishes.
Indeed, intermediate sprints gave time bonuses in the first half, I missed that. :)
Included.
Included.
Included.
HC: 40, 35, 30, 26, 22, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 1
1: 30, 26, 22, 18, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 1
2: 20, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1
3: 7, 5, 3, 2, 1
4: 4, 2, 1
Included.
@EdgeNavidad: Can you give me a source for that? Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:50, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Prologue, 1st stage, 2nd stage, all on Memoire du Cyclisme. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 20:43, 7 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Included.
Included.
Included.
Included.
Included.

I lack the time to properly include this in the article, and I am afraid to break the prose. I won't vote on this article, because I think too much was written by me to be objective. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 16:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh wow, thank you for bringing that source to my attention, I have been looking for these sorts of information actually. Will see that I include everything! Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:58, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@EdgeNavidad: All done now. Thank you very much for the help! Zwerg Nase (talk) 14:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All seems to be included correctly! No objections from me for making this a featured article. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 12:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One afterthought: the article currently states that the Souvenir Henri Desgrange was won by Franco Vona. This is supported by a source. However, the articles on the Souvenir Henri Desgrange says the winner was Gert-Jan Theunisse, without source. When I looked for additional sources, I found reports that the Souvenir Desgrange was won by neither of them, but by Laurent Biondi. See newspaper articles from that time ([2], [3]), and Memoire du Cyclisme says that L'Equipe of 20 July 1989 reported this. ([4]). I think the newspaper articles from 1989 are more reliable than a report written in 2009, so I think this article (and the Souvenir Henri Desgrange) article should show Biondi as winner. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 19:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@EdgeNavidad: Thank you for catching this! I was also confused by the Souvenir article, but put it down simply as a mistake (which it probably is). I will take a closer look at this tomorrow and then make the changes. Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@EdgeNavidad: I've changed it and added the new source. There seems to be some confusion since the prize is not given out at the summit, but at the monument. Have corrected that as well. Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harrias talk[edit]

Lead
Done.
Done.
It is correct how it is written. The biggest margin was 53 seconds. LeMond made up 58 seconds on the final day, coming from 50 seconds back to 8 seconds up on Fignon.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You write "fifty", "fight-eight" and "eight" out as words, but wrote "53" as a number. Just switch "53" to "fifty-three". Harrias talk 20:18, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh, I see, fixed!
Removed this, his nationality is trivial to the information conveyed here.
Teams
Done.
Pre-race favourites
Removed.
Have changed this to "with few victories".
Done.
Removed.
According to Tassell, which is the source given. I paraphrased here, since there are already quite a few direct quotes in the article.
Maybe change it to something like "...top-ten placing at the Giro d'Italia led Tassell to suggest that Roche was finding his form again." Harrias talk 20:18, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Harrias: Hmm, not sure about that, since Tassell writes about it after the fact, so this would be misleading. I will have another look into the book tonight and see how to best phrase it. Zwerg Nase (talk) 07:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.
Route and stages
Done.
Race overview
Done.
Removed.
Removed.
Reworded.
Removed the comma. I am always confused with English comma rules (are there any?). Would the comma after "keep up" count as an Oxford comma? I usually do those, but aren't they just in "x, y, and z" situations?
Done.
Removed. It was surprising, but I am unsure now if Tassell specifically said so here.

Completed as far as the start of the Pyrenees section, but now my laptop battery is running low, and I have no charging point here. Harrias talk 13:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Harrias: Thank you for your comments! I have adressed everything above, please feel free to go through it. Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Harrias: Will you find time to do the rest of the article as well? Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:02, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Absolutely. Have been in hospital, but should hopefully be back to this in the next few days. Harrias talk 23:55, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Harrias: Oh! I hope it wasn't too serious. Get well soon! Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:19, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Harrias: Do you think you can find the time to stroll through the rest of the article in the coming days? Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pyrenees
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Changed to "moved clear". BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Transition stages and Bastille Day bicentenary
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Changed to "..the only remaining Kelme riders abandoned, pre-race favourite Fabio Parra and José-Hipolito Roncancio." BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Removed. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alps
For each section I put the full name at the first instance and removed surnames in the following mentions. I recently asked about this here, but didn't get a clear answer.BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Aftermath
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I added a reference for this and clarified two others. Were there more? BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Classification leadership and minor prizes
Added (time subtracted) after "time bonuses". BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
References
Done. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry for the delay; finished to end of article. Harrias talk 22:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC) @Zwerg Nase: Just a heads up that I'm done with my review, pending any further responses from you. If you get a chance, I'd appreciate any critique you might be able to offer on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Worcestershire v Somerset, 1979/archive1. Harrias talk 11:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Harrias: I've stepped in and sorted the remaining comments out due to the urgency and Zwerg not replying today. BaldBoris 01:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Harrias: Thank you for your comments, which were of great help! I'll take a look at your FAC, but just a heads up: I have no idea about cricket, since I am not British or living in any other Commonwealth nation... Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support Comments from Sportsfan77777[edit]

Noting that I reviewed this article for GA status.

Have added this and some more information about the importance of the Tour, including a source. Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How about just "one of cycling's Grand Tours and generally considered the most famous bike race in the world." I think the claim that it's the biggest sporting event is a bit too much for the lead, especially given that it's just a specific edition of the Tour, and not the general Tour de France article. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am unsure why you propose this change. Writing it like that would make it sound like the two things happened one after another and not simultaneously.
Ah, I thought it was one after the other. I feel like the "but" doesn't belong. How about: "The Tour organisers relented in exchange for being allowed to run the race over 23 days instead of the original 21-day period given by the FICP." Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.
Done.
Done.
All numerals now.
Done.
Removed.
Done.
Done, although with BE spelling.

Will support after these minor comments are addressed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: Thank you for your comments! Have worked most of them in, one question is still open, see above. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I added replies to the first two points above. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Sportsfan77777: Both good suggestions. Have incorporated both. Thank you! Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:09, 15 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coord notes[edit]

This has been open over seven weeks and probably should've been archived but perhaps we're closer to promotion than it looks on first glance. I think we can take EdgeNavidad comments as supporting promotion despite it not being explicitly stated, and if Harrias can finish up then we might get over the line. Mike Christie do you think you could take on a source review for reliability as well as formatting? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:22, 9 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Ian Rose: That would be great! I would hate to have to do a second round with this article... Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:37, 9 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ian, could we list it for the source review at the usual place, and then I'll get to it if I find time this weekend? I've been busier than usual IRL recently and have been slow to meet commitments already made, so I'd rather not promise anything. With luck someone else will come along. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:19, 9 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mike Christie: Have done so. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Zwerg Nase: Status on addressing outstanding comments? --Laser brain (talk) 20:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Laser brain: I've taken care of them all as I'm sure you want this archived. BaldBoris 03:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Laser brain and BaldBoris: Sorry for the delay, I was on vacation last week which prevented me from tackling the comments. If any more work needs to be done, I'll do it today. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Laser brain: I think it should probably be good to go? What do you think? Maybe we still need an expressive support from Harrias? Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • Ref 1: "The 1989 Tour de France was the 76th edition of the Tour de France, one of cycling's Grand Tours and generally considered the most famous bike race in the world." The source article is about the 2018 Tour: "It's the 103rd edition of the race". Isn't there a more relevant source that could be cited?
Done. BaldBoris 03:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 10: "Before the 1989 Tour began, Pedro Delgado (Reynolds), the defending champion, was considered a strong favourite to win the race. He had taken the title the previous year in convincing fashion, with a lead of over seven minutes. Prior to the Tour, Delgado had also won the 1989 Vuelta a España, and was therefore considered to be in good form." Apart from mentioning Delgado as one of several favourites, the source does not support the information cited to it.
Done. BaldBoris 03:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 28 goes to a page: "All about year 2018" – not 1989
Done. BaldBoris 03:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 95 missing retrieval date
  • Ref 105 missing page ref
  • Ref 111 missing retrieval date
  • Ref 116 ditto
  • Ref 118 ditto
  • Ref 119 ditto
  • Ref 120 ditto

Brianboulton (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Brianboulton: Sorry to butt in, I just want to help out. I've fixed "missing page ref" and replaced the "All about year 2018". I had originally added the refs that you state are missing the retrieval dates. As I've said at the recently passed 1962 Tour FAC, "Access dates are not required for links to published research papers, published books, or news articles with publication dates." Per Template:Cite news#URL. The source text in old newspapers or books cannot be changed, so a retrieval date is of no benefit to reader. BaldBoris 22:29, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Most of the archived links carry retrieval dates, and it is necessary to be consistent. Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately the Dutch newspaper links at either Delpher or KrantenbanZeeland.nl cannot be archived. Including a retrieval date for these just for consistency doesn't make sense to me. BaldBoris 23:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Brianboulton: I've taken care of your concerns and added new refs. BaldBoris 03:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Unrelated point: Why, in the lead, is Fignon described as "former two-time Tour winner"? Surely he remains a two-time winner? Perhaps "previous" would be a better word. Brianboulton (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Done. BaldBoris 03:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.