Crusades

Crusades (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator(s): Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:16, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the wide ranging subject of the Crusades—religious wars fought by the Catholic church, often but not always sanctioned by various Popes. There sheer scope of the subject makes it difficult to cover successfully and comprehensively. Indeed @Adam Bishop: thinks it may be impossible. However, this is the third attempt—each attempt improving the article so now it is the best, in my opinion, it has ever been and probably the best Wikipedia article amongst the many on the related subjects . At attempt two the prose was criticised but this has now had a full copy edit by the Guild of Copy Editors thanks to @Twofingered Typist:. Also pinging @Richard Nevell:, @Jens Lallensack: and @Lord0fHats: who were very helpful the last time

Considering the challenge this subject presents it is worth reminding reviewers of how it meets the criteria.

It is:

• well-written: GOCE copyedited;
• comprehensive: for a summary article it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;
• well-researched;
• neutral: with difficulty for a contentious subject, it presents views fairly and without bias
• stable: with few recent edits apart from mine.

It follows the style guidelines, including the provision of:

• a lead;
• appropriate structure
• consistent citations.

The Media haas recently been checked at FAC (appart from two new images).

Length—considering the bredth, it stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and acts as a summary article for the subject area. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:16, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - please link to the previous noms! Johnbod (talk) 20:37, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• G'day Johnbod they are both linked above the nom statement... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks - but not on the main page. Is that usual? And #2 is very incomplete, with a template error. Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Morning Johnbod—you can get to the content of #2 through the history.... Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:57, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ergo Sum

• Though certainly not a review of the article, if my two cents are good currency here, I think it would be preferable for a reader to first be introduced to the article by one of the nice Medieval or Renaissance paintings of some battle of the Crusades, rather than by the ((Campaignbox Crusades)) template. Especially since the article has a substantial lede section, it can afford to be supplemented by an image as well as a few templates. Ergo Sum 00:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The base ((Military navigation)) template allows for an image, so perhaps a graphic could be incorporated via that route? Praemonitus (talk) 20:56, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I tried, and failed to do this neatly, so added an image in the normal way Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:57, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Great. Only thing is, that image is now used twice in the article. Ergo Sum 03:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Y—second image swapped out.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

More comments to follow, but initial impressions are not good so far as the prose is concerned. In the first paragraph the comma before "however" is inadequate and ought to be a semicolon or full stop.

• Y—full-stopped Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:51, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And mention of the word "however" brings me to its absurdly excessive use throughout the article. It occurs three times in the lead and twenty-two times in the main text, and at first glance is superfluous in every case.

• Y—culled from 25 to 3 Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:51, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is the question of commas after introductory time periods: "In 1095, Pope Urban called" (AmE style) but "Following the First Crusade there were" (BrE style) and then "After the last Catholic outposts fell in 1291, there were" (AmE style again). The "they" in the penultimate (63-word!) sentence of the lead is presumably meant to refer to the Crusades but the last plural before them is "Genoa and Venice".

• Y—adjusted formatting and replaced they Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:51, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments to follow after a thorough perusal. Tim riley talk 09:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles:—@Auntieruth55:—@Sturmvogel 66:—@Hawkeye7:— Guys, back in the day you all did sterling work reviewing this at ACR, is there any chance you can do the same at FAR, please?

Comments from Jens Lallensack

• The Albigensian Crusade taught the Papacy that – But this crusade was not introduced previously. I think we need a sentence stating the basic information of this Crusade. It seems to be an important one as it is even mentioned in the lead.

• Y—Restructured to introduce and bring the details together Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Although the lack of priority given to the campaign against the Cathers in southern France – That Campaign maybe should also be introduced. I think the article gives an interpretation of the crusading against heretics in Europe, but without providing the historical facts first. Consider that the reader of this very basic article might not have heard about these specific Crusades before.

• Y— as above, how does it look now @Jens Lallensack: Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• heterodoxy, Inquisition. Both need to be linked at first mention. "Medieval Inquisition" is linked later though.

• Y— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• mass conversion was implausible and destruction of the pagans counterproductive – counterproductive in which regard? This requires some explanation imo.

• Y—because the local economy relied on pagan labour, added Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

--Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Peacemaker67

A level-3 vital article is hard to get to FA, good on you for having a crack at it. I have quite a few comments, so I'll approach this in a few tranches:

• the indentation and semi-dot pointing of the last para of the lead doesn't work. Just IAR and make this a fifth para starting with "The Crusades had a profound impact...", and roll the dot points up into running prose. A fifth lead para is acceptable on such a large subject IMHO.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 06:37, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

• put a translation in "" after negotium crucis, crux transmarina and crux cismarina as you have done with iter

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• move "The modern spelling crusade dates to c. 1760" to the end of the para to put it chronological order

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Greeks'

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• in general, use "" for emphasis (ie Franks, Saracen, Muslim etc, not italics

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Causes

• suggest (later Roger I of Sicily) is that is correct

Y—DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire of Constantinople seems a mouthful. Which Orthodox was it? Greek? Is a link to Byzantine Empire appropriate?

Y—DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Pope for papacy? and be consistent with the initial caps

Y—DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link penitential

Y—DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the article says that the Fatimids had captured Jerusalem, then starts talking about the Seljuq hold on the city?

Y—Expanded and explainedNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Mohammad

Y—DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "the deaths of the Sultan, Malikshah,"

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I think you are referring to Carole Hillenbrand, fix typo and link

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Iron Curtain

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the para beginning "Through military successes under Emperor Basil II," contains a partial repetition of the content of the last para of the Background section, this also relates to my earlier point about the Seljuqs and Jerusalem. Suggest putting this into the appropriate chronological point of the narrative

Y— when I removed the duplication there remained nothing of note, even the sources were duplicated. So I have removed the entire para Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:18, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Serbians→Serbs

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "as well as the Seljuqs", but wouldn't the Seljuqs have been to the south of Constantinople?

Y—no, east but amended Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• be consistent with Seljuk and Seljuq

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• a map would be really useful in the Causes section

Y—added @Peacemaker67:— what do you think? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "that providedposed the threat"

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "overall health of the Empire at the time"

Y—done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the Easter Med

Down to the In the eastern Mediterranean section. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:25, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "migrating Turks" Seljuq?

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV"

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Germany links to the modern country, is there a better link?

• Y— Kingdom of Germany? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "led by: Robert Curthose; Stephen, Count of Blois; and Robert II, Count of Flanders." otherwise the commas are confusing

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Byzantium

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Malik Shah, the Sultan of the Seljuq Empire" as he has already been introduced

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "The three-month Crusader march"

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for Edessa link County of Edessa, and add "which became one of the Crusader states"

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "The Crusaders besieged the cityAntioch"

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• comma after "Despite superior numbers"

• Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "taken Jerusalem from the Seljuq Turks" if that is right?

• Y— yes, done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• is there a link for Genoese?

• Y— Republic of Genoa? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• who is Al-Afdal?

• Y— vizier of Egypt, done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

12th century

• the initial capital for Crusade/Crusades and Crusader/Crusaders should only be used when it forms part of a proper name, like First Crusade, but not when describing the nature of a series of crusades, like political crusades, or when just referring to crusaders. No doubt you will get other queries about this, it is very important that you have a close look at MOS:CAPS in this regard

Y—phew, all decapped Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:05, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "political crusades"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for the Siege of Edessa link, pipe "loss of Edessa" rather than just Edessa

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for Pope Eugenius III link Pope Eugene III

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• state that Bernard of Clairvaux was an abbot and link abbot

Y— also added he was a french Benedictine Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "monk called Rudolf initiated further massacres of Jews" as this is the second lot of them

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "King Louis VII of France"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• who were "their traditional allies in Damascus"?

Y— branch of the Seljuks expanded Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for Caliph of Baghdad, link List of Abbasid caliphs

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• if Saladin was subservient to As-Salih Ismail al-Malik what was he doing seizing Damascus and most of Syria?

Y— did it while claiming to be his regent Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "onafter hearing of the defeat" to avoid the repetition of "on"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Acre, Israel for Acre

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for "by surrounding the strategic city", pipe the link to "surrounding the strategic city" rather just surrounding

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for "his fiancée", link Berengaria of Navarre

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for Angevin link Angevin kings of England

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Emperor Henry VI→Holy Roman Emperor Henry VI

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to 13th century, more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:48, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

13th century

• suggest "In 1200, Pope Innocent III began preaching in favour of what became the Fourth Crusade, his exhortations primarily focussed on France but also on England and Germany." if that is consistent with the intent?

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "This crusade was diverted by Enrico Dandolo, the Doge of Venice, and by King Philip of Swabia, to further their aggressive territorial objectives."

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "Dandolo aimed to expand Venice's power in the eastern Mediterranean, and Philip intended to restore his exiled nephew"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "The latter would require the overthrow of Alexios III Angelos, the uncle of Alexios IV."

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Innocent III was appalled"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Excommunication (Catholic Church)

Y— done, edited out Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "After the crusaders had taken Constantinople for a first time, the original purpose of the campaign was thwarted by the assassination of Alexios IV Angelos." Also, I assume they installed the latter then left? Could this be included?

Y— done, wording didn't quite match events so I have redrafted this and added sourcing Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Papacy→papacy, there are other examples of this and papal as well

Y— all done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• decap the "Crusading Orders and Western Aid"

Y— all done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• it isn't clear whether "seemingly of their own volition" refers to their travel to Egypt or their capture of Jerusalem

Y— rephrased Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• comma after "king of France"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII" for clarity, as there seems to have been a succession of Michael's

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "was proclaimed king"→"was proclaimed king of Sicily"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• comma after "In 1285 Charles died"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jihadi and Jihad should be decapped

Y— all done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "the crusades continued to be conducted by short-lived armies led by independently minded potentates, rather than with centralised leadership."
• "to use the logistical advantages fromof proximity"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest dispensing with "Outremer", or properly introduce it when it is first mentioned

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Middle Ages

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Europe

Down to In Europe. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:16, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Popes'→popes'

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Latin Empire

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Islamic World→Islamic world

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Calixtus II→Pope Calixtus II, and in general, suggest always prefixing popes with Pope to avoid confusion with kings and nobles

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Bull→bull

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "that it was placed"→"that the Reconquista was placed"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Bernard of Clairvaux

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Although, mMany of these deserted"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• decap Fourteenth century

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• compaigning

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the Papacypapal territorial conflicts

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Further cases included the threatening Milan? also link Milan

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Languedoc

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the confiscation the lands of lords? of?

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Norman Housley

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "The initial indication the papacy would begin to regard the wars waged by Scandinavian and German Christians against the pagans indigenous to the Baltic coastal region as Northern Crusades came in 1147. In that year, Bernard of Clairvaux persuaded Pope Eugenius III...

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "The order's strong links"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Imperium→imperium

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Livonia

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Other orders redated the Knights" redated? and which Knights?

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Robert Bartlett (historian)

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to During the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Period. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Period

• "to counter the expansion of the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans"→"to counter further Ottoman expansion in the Balkans" if that is what is meant?

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "after a ten-week siege" of what city?

Y— Mahdia done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "after their victory"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest piping the link to "Sigismund of Luxemburg" to include all of "Sigismund of Luxemburg, King of Hungary and Croatia"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Nikopol, Bulgaria→Nicopolis

Y— changed to Nicopolis done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• link Diet of Regensburg (1541) for Ratsibon if that is the right one, otherwise link Diet of Regensburg, same for Diet of Frankfurt

Y— did some digging and this info seems superfluous so removed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Crusader states. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:14, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Crusader state

• Crusader Kingdoms→crusader kingdoms, but really, aren't they a kingdom, a principality and a county? Hardly "kingdoms" Perhaps "crusader states"

Y — done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "with the kingdom amounting to" which kingdom? Jerusalem?

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "AlthoughHowever, some historians"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "the military force of the Kingdom of Jerusalem"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "This indicates conquest was possible but ephemeral because of a lack of the numbers to maintain military domination" is unclear. What conquest was possible? They had already conquered and established the states. Further conquest?

Y— done, rephrased for clarity, what do you think @Peacemaker67:? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "adopted delaying tactics"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "destruction of the walled cities"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "forced the Crusaders into their ultimately unsuccessful strategyattempt(s) of destroying Egypt" haven't checked how many attempts were made, so adjust as needed

Y— done, rephrased, again what do you think? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "the Kkingdom's demographic"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Crusader States"→"Crusader states"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "little difference into the conditions"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "However, the Muslim poll tax"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "The territorial gains followed distinct ethnic and linguistic entitieslines"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for Provençal link Provence at first mention, drop later link

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Crown→crown

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Miltary Orders

Down to Military orders. More to come.Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:26, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "developed from the culture ofin the crusader states"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "The Hospitallers (Order of Knights of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem)"→"Knights Hospitaller, formally the Order of Knights of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem," then drop the link later

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• suggest "The Poor Knights of Christ (Templars)"→the Templars, formally the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon,"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• across the Outremer→in the Crusader states

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "In time, this developed into autonomous power in the region"→"In time, they developed into autonomous powers in the region"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• for "continue in existence to the present day" link Sovereign Military Order of Malta

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Art and architecture. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Art & architecture

• link Joshua Prawer

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I would organise this section into a couple of paras about art and then a couple of paras about architecture, and not mix them up

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Provencal→ Provençal for consistency

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "In contrast, monumental..."

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "adopted an indigenous style"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "created by multiple hands in a workshop attached to the Holy Sepulchre"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Icons→icons

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Legacy. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

• "Europe and the Outremer"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "to identify the specific sources"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "of the Outremer"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Imperialism→ Western imperialism

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jihad→jihad

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• even if for only →even if only for

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Phew, got there in the end. In general, the above is almost entirely about the prose, MOS concerns or wikification. Great job on this so far. Ping me when you're done and I'll have a final read through. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:20, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thank you @Peacemaker67:—I'll work through these and ping you when done. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by CPA-5

Claim my seat here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the eastern and western branches of Christendom Unlink Christendom because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• increased, particularly with Jews and those considered Unlink Jews because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The crusades in the Holy Land are traditionally Link Holy Land.

Y— already linked Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• by Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II may be Link Holy Roman Emperor.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The first use of "Muslim' is dated to the 17th-century Unlink Muslim because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Eighth Crusades led by King Louis IX Add "of France".

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Frank" and "Latin" were used during Unlink Latin because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the foundation of the Islamic religion by Muhammad Unlink Islamic religion because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• migrated into Iran to seek their fortunes Unlink Iran because current countries should be unlinked.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Muslim Arabs under the Umayyad Caliphate captured unlink Arabs because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Standardise we have Mohammad v. Muhammad and Mohammad is overlinked.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• divided between the Sunnis of Syria and Iraq Unlink Sunnis and link the first "Sunni".

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Richard conquered Cyprus in 1191 Unlink current country.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Pipe Venice to the Republic of Venice.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• swept west from Mongolia through Unlink the current country.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• the crusading orders and western aid. [88] Remove the extra space.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Christian expansion—Castile and León, Aragon and Portugal Unlink the current country.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• seized from the Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Shishman Same as above.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• who was burned at the stake in 1415 American burned.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• over the city, Thrace, Greece, the extreme north Unlink the current country.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Latin Empire is overlinked.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ruled Rhodes (1309–1522) and Malta (1530–1798) Unlink the current country.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• states of Genoa and Venice flourished Unlink Venice.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ((xt|Levantines or Franco-Levantines.[B][151] Switch the note and the ref.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• and the United Nations mandated foundation of the state of Israel Unlink the current country and the UN.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Catholic Church shouldn't be linked due to common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• While the Protestant viewpoint was they Unlink Protestant because of common term.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• crusades to the Christian campaigns in the Holy Land Unlink Holy Land.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• definition includes attacks on paganism and heresy Unlink paganism and link the first mentioned paganism.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Some crusades are overlinked.
• French Levantins, Italian Levantini, Greek Φραγκολεβαντίνοι, and Turkish Levantenler or Tatlısu Frenk leri. Later European visitors pejoratively used the term "Levantine" for inhabitants of mixed Arab and European descent and for Europeans who adopted local dress and customs Unlink the languages and Arabs.

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:34, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More to come

• recover the Holy Land ended in failure Replace "ended in failure" with "failed".
• Egyptians while the crusaders were besieging Antioch Typo of besieging.
• from the thinking of 3rd and 4th century theologian Augustine of Hippo You mean "4th-century"?
• Ultimately this led to the East–West Schism, the name now given to the split You mean "was now given"?
• authority but still faced a number of foreign enemies Replace "a number of" with "several".
• This was part of wide-ranging anti-Jewish activity --> "This was part of the wide-ranging anti-Jewish activity".
• Germany, the Low countries, and Italy led their own military contingents Remove "own" here.
• The Byzantines provided no assistance to the crusaders' Replace "provided no assistance to" with "did not assist in".
• Debate ended when news arrived that the Fatimid Egyptians --> "The debate ended when news arrived that the Fatimid Egyptians".
• with the ambition to gain his own princedom Remove "own" here.
• crusaders attacked their lond standing Seljuk allies in Damascus You mean "long"?

In the File:Temple mount.JPG image "The present day Temple Mount in Jerusalem" --> "The present-day Temple Mount in Jerusalem".

• focussed on France but also on England Replace the "on" before England with "in".
• The crusaders then proceded to seize the Christian city You mean "proceeded"?
• Although he condemed the attack, he was unsuccessful Typo of condemned.
• was unable or unwilling to fulfill American fulfill.
• his comittments and the original Typo of "committments"?
• killing many of the greek orthodox citizenry You mean citizenries?
• now lacked both the will or the Byzantine logistical support Remove "or" with "of".
• forces drawn mainly from Hungary, Germany, Flanders, and You mean "drew"?
• and the papacy were in conflict Replace "were in conflict" with "conflicted".
• that of the Kingdom prior to the disaster Replace "prior to" with "before".
• This action was seemingly of their own You mean seeming?
• Another truce was agreed upon for a ten-year period Replace "ten-year" with "ten years". Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:19, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More to come

Serial Number 54129

• 'Sup' NBF. Just an FYI, but a couple of your bibliographic entries are of works too early to have received ISBNs, so either give them their OCLCs or identify what (later) edition you're using. There's a couple of p/pp errors too. Bloody nice article. Hope all's well! ——SerialNumber54129 17:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Y—thank you @Serial Number 54129:—should have picked up the isbn point in the sources review section (see below) and fixed the p/pp issues. All good at this end, hope all's well with you Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:35, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

• No spotchecks carried out
• Links to sources all working, per the checker tool
• Formats

• General re page ranges: MoS now recommends the format you have adopted in refs 108 and 112, rather than the shorter form that you have otherwise used. Thus, for example, ref 46 should become 146–153, ref 48 becomes 104–106, and so on. It's a bit of a chore, I know, but...

Y—yes a chore, particularly as some other editor went through and did this. Still all done :-) Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 32 requires dash not hyphen

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 56 requires pp. not p.
• Ref 77: dash not hyphen

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 81: no page ref?

did this to get the book in the bibliography at the request of another reviewer. Source is for the entire crusade rather than a particular fact as there is debate on the significance and accuracy of info on this one Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 144: dash not hyphen

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Likewise 145, 146, 147

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jotischky is out of alphabetical sequence in bibliography

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Author details missing from "The Crusades: Idea and Reality"

Y—not used, so I have removed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Why retrieval dates for Chazan, Constable, and Tyerman 2007, but not otherwise?

Y— removed for consistency Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ISBN checks

• Is Brundage the author of Medieval Italy? WorldCat gives this

Y— not required, so removed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Cantor 1958: I suspect the ISBN relates to the 2016 edition

Y— duplicate sourcing so removed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Constable: Publisher should be "Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection", not "Dumbarton Oaks"

Y— done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Hillenbrand: ISBN goes to this - different publisher and year

Y—done, corrected isbn Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Housley: WorldCat gives year as 2008

Y—cross checked with publisher, 2006 is correct Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:43, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Krey: check publisher: (WorldCat [1])

Y— not required, so removed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Quality/reliability: sources appear to be comprehensive and to meet the requisite FA criteria.

Brianboulton (talk) 13:07, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]