The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 04:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC) [1].[reply]


Girl Pat (1935 trawler)[edit]

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This decidedly quirky, slightly mysterious maritime adventure of 1936 created enormous public interest and press attention at the time, well out of proportion to its apparent significance. It has since been ignored by almost all the social historians of the period. Was there something unrevealed behind it? After reading a passing reference to the affair in Ronald Blythe's The Age of Illusion, I was intrigued, so I researched the story and here it is. You'd call it a nine days' wonder, except that it lasted more like nine months. The article has been polished by some helpful peer reviewers, and is hopefully ready for consideration here. All views welcomed. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I enjoyed this article extravagantly. On occasion, rereading something for FAC after one has fairly recently peer reviewed it can be a bit of a chore. Not this time! The lighter side of Wikipedia, at its finest. A delectable change from shipping disasters, mad racists, drug-doomed actors, and modern slavery (though fine articles all, by fine editors). This jeu d'esprit is well balanced, comprehensive, widely sourced and referenced, cunningly illustrated and an unalloyed delight to read. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. – Tim riley talk 17:26, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your support. It was indeed a pleasure to write this, not least because of the utterly fascinating period newspaper pieces, provided with much help from you and SchroCat, which formed the basis of the article. Ah, well, back to the grim stuff (I am currently resarching the Mary Celeste...) Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by the Doctor[edit]

Lede
  • Information relating to the Girl Pat regarding its constructiion and technical features has been very hard to find, beyond what I have included in the article. Thus I don't know if it was actually built in Grimsby, but I should imagine it was, possibly at Smith's Docks. "Grimsby trawler" is a generic name for a wide range of fishing boats, large and small, based at the fishing port of Grimsby. I have altered "from" to "based at", but can't do more. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:16, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • My mistake: "In May 1936..." should read "On 1 April 1936..." I have added a few more date indicators to establish a rough chronology, and I hope this is clear now. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that countries should not be linked, and have delinked Bahamas. Brianboulton (talk)
Background
  • Not sure – same might be said for Aberdeen. I have been pulled up in the past for not linking major British towns, and told not to assume a worldwide awareness of British geography. I'll leave them for the present, unless there are serious objections. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • See my earlier note. I'm not sure bwhat you mean by its "anchorage", but such specifications as I have found, I have included. Some newspapers have referred to different lengths and tonnages, but I have relied on them particulars included in a notice of sale. I wish I could add more, and will obviously do so if anything more comes to light. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure it is really the correct term, I have heard it used in sailing navigation books, but I mean details on its anchor and docking etc. I'd imagine info about them don't exist.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think either form is acceptable, but one should be consistent. I have removed "the", except for the first line (which I think needs the definite article, (and where the reference is to the Girl Pat "adventure", "crew", "affair" etc. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, OK.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Voyage
  • The previous section records that Jefferson became a crew member only because the enterprise was changed at the last minute from Gypsy Love to the Girl Pat, of which he was the regular engineer. Thus he was an outsider; he was left out of the wheelhouse discussions, and dumped at the first opportunity because he wasn't part of Orsborne's plans to go further afield. I'm not sure how I can make this clearer. Brianboulton (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Zapped one semicolon
  • I had the wikilink wrong - it's the British Daily Worker, after 1960 known as the Morning Star. Brianboulton (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, it wasn't actually the vessel's name – like the "Margaret Harold", so I haven't italicised it. Its 50:50, I suppose. Brianboulton (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. There have been several such acts; I believe that 1881 was the most recent before 1936. I'm not sure the relink is really useful, but someone may take it up I suppose. Brianboulton (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hearings
  • It was of course the Governor of British Guiana, and The Times does not name him. Some nonentity I expect.
  • Thanks. I don't think the name is important, but as you've ntaken the trouble to find it, and provided a ref, I've added him in. Brianboulton (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reworded. MacLean wasn't voicing suspicions, merely recounting what was said to him by Orsborne. (Mind you – see following footnote – MacLean was not the most trustworthy of people.) Brianboulton (talk) 19:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's better.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Aftermath
  • Well, the list still exists – I've seen it – so either "is listed" or "was listed" works here. I'll leave it. Brianboulton (talk) 20:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have never seen the weight of a ship given in kilograms, not even American ships (I did lengthy research into this matter when working on SS Arctic disaster a few months ago). The whole question of ships' tonnage is muddled when the sources don't indicate if the figure is "gross tonnage" (based on the volume of cargo space), "displacement tonnage" (weight of water displaced by the ship", or whether these are long tons, short tons etc. Safest I think not to conjecture, and let things be. Brianboulton (talk) 20:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't either! Yes, it's probably best left as it is. Does make you wonder though given that most other measurements and weights are converted these days.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Notes

Did you link Portsmouth earlier like Southampton? The last example of Portsmouth I saw wasn't linked but I might have missed an earlier one.

That's all, a thoroughly enjoyable adventure story, I think I need a rest now! My only significant criticism I suppose might be that there's very little technical information about the vessel itself. I understand that it's the story which is being covered here more than the actual boat itself, but you would normally expect a section covering its technical aspects and performance. What was its capacity in fish hauls? What equipment did it possess etc? If only the very basic figures exist though then of course there's not much you can do about it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I have said, the kind of technical information you mention is simply not available, or at least, I've not been able to find it. The great majority of the information on the story comes from newspaper sources, and they were interested in the adventure and the people, not the technical details of the ship. I dare say that these exist somewhere, in a long-lost report or book, that may one day come to light, and the stuff you mention can then be added. Many thanks for the trouble you have taken to read the article carefully, and in most cases I have adopted your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 20:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Thanks for addressing the points. An excellent piece!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks indeed. Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (and support) by RHM22[edit]

This is an excellent, informative article which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I have some points in addition to some of Dr. Blofeld's commentary above, with which I mostly agree. I think it especially important that some technical specifications be given if they are available, even if only as a few sentences.

  • Dr Blofeld, above, made the same point and I have adjusted the wording accordingly
  • Oops; Sorry for missing that one above.-RHM22 (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence begins: "The brothers were held in custody", which I think is sufficient to indicate that they were refused bail. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry, but I don't know what the problem is. The sentence makes perfect sense to me as it stands. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did some research, and I was wrong to point this out. It's correct, as you said. I had never previously encountered "certain" as a pronoun, but it's definitely proper English. Maybe it's a regional preference.-RHM22 (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have replaced the euphemism with the explicit "get rid of". Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am simply recounting what Orsborne says in his book; he does not mention alchoholism. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. As stated by myself and others, this is a very interesting article and a great read.-RHM22 (talk) 19:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these comments and kind words. I have done my best to respond. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]


  • My debt to you is considerable, for providing so many of the newspaper accounts that are an essential ingredient in this article. Thanks, too, for your help at peer review. Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Llywrch[edit]

I'm not going to address whether I think this should be considered a pass or fail for FAC. But I will make a few comments here:

  • I have effected this change within a general reorganisation of the paragraph in question. Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have clarified the reference in the text to the Fugitive Offenders Act. According to the source they were "arrested on a provisional warrant issued under the Fugitive Offenders Act, charging them with the alleged larceny of the Grimsby trawler, Girl Pat". In other words, the Act merely provided the legal basis whereby the brothers could be arrested in one jurisdiction for crimes committed in another. It was not in itself the statute which covered their crime; they were charged with conspiracy and theft. Brianboulton (talk) 22:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I wrote in the peer review, Orsborne's true motives remain a mystery, and I think will do so until the sea gives up its dead and all are judged according to their deeds. But who knows? Brianboulton (talk) 22:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I could probably say more, but my off-wiki life has me pressed for time. -- llywrch (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, and thank you for giving the article the time you have. Brianboulton (talk) 22:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie[edit]

Support. A fine article, and an entertaining read. I had some trouble finding even minor nits to pick; the points below don't amount to enough to prevent me from supporting now.

  • This matter was raised at the peer review. There have been at least two other vessels of this name, one of which is mentioned in the "Aftermath" section. I agree that this one is the only really notable Girl Pat, and your comment makes sense. However, the extended title does make it absolutely clear to casual readers what the article's subject is, which the shortened title might not. I'd prefer to leave the title as it is, at least in the duration of this FAC, and perhaps reconsider at leisure thereafter.
    OK; after FAC, I would suggest moving it -- we don't typically disambiguate unless there are or are clearly going to be other articles with the same name. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did know about the Venezuelan torture claims – they are mentioned in the short biography that I created for Orsborne, here. If the El Paso article is online I might use it to add detail to that article.
    It's available via newspapers.com; if you don't have a subscription let me know and I'll clip the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Full disclosure on this: I forwarded Brian a selection of news reports from local British newspapers during the article's development. I took no other part in the writing until the peer review, so I'm confident that there is no conflict in my further involvement.

Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for doing this. The minor fixes are done. On the final point: Ref 66 links to a facsimile of The Nashua Telegraph, so the newspaper itself is the source rathre than Google News (in the same way that we cite directly to books hosted by Google Books). In ref 115 the source is not The Grimsby Telegraph itself, it is the paper's website, which is a separate non-print medium. I hope that's clear. Brianboulton (talk) 22:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, that's fine for me. - SchroCat (talk) 05:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.