- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 26 January 2024 [1].
- Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jack the Ripper Stalks His Victims is the groundbreaking Victorian-inspired first collection by British designer Alexander McQueen. Narratively, it drew on the famous serial killer, and aesthetically, it drew on Victorian clothing, erotica, and prostitution. Isabella Blow famously bought the entire collection practically on sight, and made herself McQueen's muse and mentor on the strength of it. Jack the Ripper was foundational for McQueen. It earned him a reputation for narratively-driven collections with wide-ranging inspiration, and many of the collection's aesthetic concepts resurfaced elsewhere in his work. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- "Editor Isabella Blow was" - I've run into issues with this sort of wording in the recent past. Apparently presented like this it creates a "false title" and it should be "The editor Isabella Blow"......
- "British designer Alexander McQueen" - same here I think. Best to check for this throughout
- Yes, this gets called out at every McQueen FAC. It's a style variation, both are accepted on Wikipedia, and I continue to prefer it without the clunky additional "the".
- Butting in, this is an ENGVAR matter; in British prose false titles sound very American and wrong. I doubt the The New Yorker would let you get away with it either. Johnbod (talk) 18:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Rendering false titles one way or another is not mandatory under the MOS. I hate the "the", and I'm not doing it. It would be inconsistent with every other McQueen FA, which have also passed without unnecessary "the"s. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- So we're just doing partly British English, then. Johnbod (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- "McQueen told Bobby Hillson," - already mentioned above so no need to relink and use her full name
- Redundancy removed
- "The show was photographed by Niall McInerney. Both his mother Joyce" - McInerney's mother.......?
- Oops, victim of a sentence swap
- "accessorized" - UK spelling is with an S not a Z
- No, actually it isn't, in Oxford English, which is fine. Johnbod (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- One day I will be a good Canadian and remember the British spellings first time, really
- "Hillson felt he would have" => "Hillson felt that McQueen would have"
- Fixed
- "would have done better in a two-year program" - UK spelling is "programme"
- "but Blow recognised it" => "but that Blow recognised it"
- SC kindly fixed the Brit spellings for me
- Hi ChrisTheDude, thanks as always for your comments. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- SC
A marker for me. I always enjoy these ones. - SchroCat (talk) 16:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I made a couple of BrEng and MOS tweaks here to finish off the last bits of BrEng. I will do my usual grumble about the false titles, but will still support. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks always for doing those for me, I appreciate it, and your support :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source review from Vami[edit]
All sources reliable or used acceptably. Spot-check to follow. No other comment at this time other than to say that it would be a good idea to emphasize Sussanah Frankel's friendship with McQueen to make her relevant as a primary source. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 17:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Despite what our article says, I don't recall Frankel being one of McQueen's personal friends. On a quick review, none of the major sources seem to support that either. She's a well-known fashion journalist and she covered him quite a bit throughout his career, but no more so than any other journalist. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Spot-check
- [3]: Checks out.
- [14]: Checks out.
- [18]: Checks out.
- [25]: Feels like garnishing. Has a single sentence connecting McQueen and Hilson, which is serviceable but not useful as a sentence with another two references on it.
- Yeah this is a relic, it was originally there to document that Hilson was the course founder, but I covered that with other sources without realizing it made that one redundant
- [31]: Checks out.
- [39]: Checks out.
- [42]: Checks out.
- [49]: Checks out; I would advise chasing "obsession" with an in-line citation so that its source is more immediately visible.
- Per my usual, I prefer not to clutter my sentences with inline citations; end of sentence is MOS-accepted for quotes.
I'm satisfied with the text-source integrity at this point; supporting. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Replies to two above. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Image review (pass)[edit]
- Images are appropriately licensed, have succinct captions, and provide context where appropriate.
- Suggest adding WP:ALT. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pseud 14[edit]
Non-expert prose review, since I haven't dipped into a fashion-related article in the FAC space yet, although I have read your brilliant series of work on McQueen, and this one is no different. The article is grammatically perfect, well-researched and seems to present all viewpoints fairly. Not much to quibble.
- Suggest maybe linking macabre, for those who may be unfamiliar with the term.
- In the runway show subsection, perhaps the second para could me merged into the first, since it is only two sentences.
- I see where you're coming from, but I think I prefer it separated since Costin's work is a separate thought
- That will be all from me. It's a very great read on McQueen's earlier work. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- (P.S. If you have spare time and interest, was wondering if I could ask for some feedback on a my current FAC)
- For this sentence, (In his early career, McQueen was often accused of misogyny for his extreme designs, a characterisation to which he consistently objected.), I'd recommend clearly attributing who made these accusations.
- There's no one specific person who did this, it was a constant theme in reviews and early analysis of his work
- I would move masters link up to this part, (the founder and head of the masters course in fashion), as it is the first time it is mentioned in the article.
- As we have the luxury of doing duplicate links now, I've done that rather than have to choose between linking the first instance and linking the more relevant instance :)
- I am not sure what "quietly providing" means in this part, (this meant quietly providing him with quality fabric from the CSM stores).
- Basically, she was favoring McQueen a little bit on the down-low. None of the sources say so explicitly, but it appears that students were expected to supply their own fabric. McQueen was dirt poor so he always had cheap trash fabric. Hillson used her position to give him stuff which (again, not explicit, but implied) other students weren't getting.
- This may just be a matter of personal preference, but I am not sure about the placement of File:Mourning brooch containing the hair of a deceased relative. Wellcome L0036419.jpg so that it is cutting across section titles (at least in my browser).
I think it's generally okay if it's breaking the section on the right side, where it doesn't interfere with the section title on the left Oop, looks like Ceoil fixed it in their copyedit and I didn't notice, so my comment is irrelevant
- For this part, ( presented her Master's thesis project), I do not believe master's thesis needs to be capitalized.
I hope this review is helpful. Once all of my comments have been addressed, I will read through the article again, but I doubt I will find anything major. Just to be clear, my review is focused on the prose, aside from a stray comment on image placement. I would be curious if this collection is ever brought up in the larger discussions on the fascination with serial killers and how they are represented in the media. Best of luck with this FAC! Apologies for not posting a review sooner. Aoba47 (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Aoba you never need to apologize to me, I'm always happy to see your name at my FACs :) Thanks very much for your comments, I've replied above. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the responses and the kind words. I appreciate and agree with the explanations that you have provided. I am always glad to help whenever I can. I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. I hope you are doing well and having a good 2024 so far. Aoba47 (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support another pleasing addition to this fascinating series. Made a series of trival edits while reading through. As a quibble, I found the closing titbit on Tina Gorjanc confusing and bordering on irrelevant. But great work notwithstanding, the prose are gripping and fun to read. Moare pls. Ceoil (talk) 06:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Ceoil, thanks for your kind comments and your copyedit. I did revert one change, where you cut "to draw media attention in the hopes of attracting financial backers" down as "to draw media attention and thus financial backers". The "thus" wording, to me, reads like it's a sure thing. But getting a backer was really more like a gamble, which I think my wording communicates a little more clearly. I do see where you're coming from with Gorjanc. However, on balance, it feels fitting to me as the project would only be possible because McQueen put his hair into these specific items, and because McWade analysed it as part of McQueen's macabre legacy. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine on both counts. Thanks for the considered reply. Ceoil (talk) 00:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WP:FAC coordinators: - hello coordinators, there have been no new comments in over a week and there are no unresolved sections. Is there anything additional you're looking for here? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- "The collection was presented on the runway at London Fashion Week with other graduating students". Do you mean 'The collection was presented on the runway at London Fashion Week with those of other graduating students'? At the moment the sentence is a bit of a puzzle to me; I wondered if other students were on the runway as McQueen's models. (If that was what you meant, perhaps you could firm it up.
- "Many of the elements featured in the collection resurfaced throughout McQueen's career". I am unsure about "throughout"; I think that replacing it with 'during' may leave a more accurate statement.
- I got into the weeds and revised the whole bit
- Looks good. But it still says "Many of the elements ... resurfaced throughout McQueen's career" which seems to be labouring the point. (And technically inaccurate.). So I would again suggest "throughout" → 'during'.
- "During" to me suggests less intensity, and I see the intensity as justified. I can't stress enough how the tendencies he established during JTR formed the core of how he designed going forward. His craft evolved and he certainly varied the mix, but he was always, always, doing something with narrative, the macabre, personal fixations, tailoring, and experimentation. This isn't a guy who dicked around for five years making blandly pretty dresses before figuring out what he was about. He came right out the gate with it, and it's significant to who he was as a designer.
- Ok, but "throughout", in the context of the rest of the sentence, is pushing the grammar past breaking point. How about 'repeatedly'? Or 'frequently'? Or 'persistently'? Or recast the sentence so that "throughout" works. Eg, start with 'Throughout McQueen's career, many elements...' Gog the Mild (talk) 22:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not trying to be difficult, genuinely, but I don't see how the use of "throughout" is a grammatical issue, let alone "pushing the grammar past breaking point". Substituting "during" as you initially suggested would make little difference in the grammar of the sentence, so what is it about "throughout" specifically that makes the sentence intolerable, where "during" would be acceptable?
- Before I explain, and I can, honest, but it is past my bed time already, how you say the same thing in the main article does work. So could you live with 'McQueen held on to the narrative and aesthetic tendencies in Jack the Ripper throughout his career, earning a reputation for ...' in the lead? Gog the Mild (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, Gog, I'm sorry; I thought you were talking about the usage in the body, I didn't realize you were referring to the lead. I apologize for the misunderstanding and I've replaced the sentence in the lead as suggested.
- I thought it unlike you to be stubborn over something so readily fixable. Perhaps I could have been clearer. Any hoo, resolved now. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:02, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thomas, 2015, needs a publisher location.
Gog the Mild (talk) 18:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- You ok with the CSM edit I made in the lead?
- Gog the Mild (talk) 21:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh yup that's a total oops on my part. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
