The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 14:39, 30 November 2018 [1].

Packers sweep[edit]

Nominator(s): « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Green Bay Packers of the 1960s were one of the most dominant teams in the history of professional football. Under coach Vince Lombardi the Packers won five NFL Championships in seven years–including the first two Super Bowls. Thirteen Packers who played for Lombardi were later elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame, with Lombardi entering shortly after his death in 1970. Much of this success can be traced to the philosophy of Vince Lombardi: teamwork, hard work, and the pursuit of excellence. Nothing better exemplifies these traits than the Packers sweep: a power running play that Lombardi's Packers perfected.

As this is my first WP:FAC, I was cautious to make sure this article was properly reviewed before the nomination. The article was first reviewed during its DYK nomination and time on the Main Page. It was then reviewed by The Guild of Copyeditors before its subsequent GA review. Finally, it was reviewed by a WP:FAC mentor to make sure nothing else had been missed. Thank you to Sportsfan77777, Casliber, Twofingered Typist, The Rambling Man, and others for their assistance.

Thank you for taking the time to review the article at WP:FAC. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Clikity[edit]

  • Thanks Clikity, I made the suggested change here. Note I changed the "Packers sweep" that starts the next sentence to "The play" to avoid repeating "the Packers sweep" three times in a row. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 13:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Tony seems to have fixed the little issues with the prose. The citations and sources look good, so I think you're good to go when the image review ends. A good read. Clikity (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • I have uploaded a new version of File:Vince_lombardi_bart_starr.jpg using this version as the source. Note I archived it here and included that link on the Commons description page so that this issue does not happen again. Let me know if this satisfies your concerns.
  • I replaced File:Jim_Taylor_1967.JPG with File:Taylor 1961 Topps.jpg. Let me know if this is satisfactory to you.
  • File:Packers_sweep_diagram.svg was created by me using Method Draw. Although I based the graphic on an image I found online, I have change the source on the description page to one that is more reliable and is included in the article that still is consistent with the diagram I created. I also believe that the article and numerous sources support the reliability of the diagram. Let me know if this satisfies your concerns. Thanks for the review Nikkimaria. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 05:00, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fine with the latter two - for the first, would still like to know publication date, don't see that at given source. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:41, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, I will continue to search for said publication date, but as of now I have been unable to locate it. It appears to be from the same series of photos from other Packers (see File:Bart starr bw.jpg, for example). Not an expert on photos by any means, so any advice would be appreciated. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 13:51, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like it has been published elsewhere (eg) - these may have more details. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:28, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, the book you linked was published in 2017 and uses that picture as the e-book cover. My guess is that the author pulled that photo from the web, and most likely does not own a copyright on the photo. Have you found it anywhere else? All of my searching has come up empty. My best guess is that is was taken by Vernon Biever or a similar Packers photographer, but that is just a guess. Lombardi coached the Packers from 1959 to 1967, and he passed away in 1970. So we can reliably conclude that the range listed on the description page is correct. If we are unable to get the exact date or year, will the range suffice? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:37, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue is not when the image was created, but when it was published, as that's what is typically used to determine copyright in the US. If you haven't yet, you could try a reverse image search? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:42, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did try a reverse image search, among other things. Still no luck. Let me know how best to proceed. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:28, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that case you may need to remove the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1[edit]

1a Support: well-written indeed.

  • Slipped in. A "cut-off block" is usually hyphenated, but in this use it definitely shouldn't be. Fixed. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed. I also reordered because "inside or outside" sounds better than "outside or inside". « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed the first comma. Not good comma usage. Added a dash per your recommendation (I have to admit, I am a dash noob). I checked all the remaining instances of "who" and I believe they all are fixed. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Minor adjustments to writing style, and please write more articles! Love the technical depth. And memo to FAC more generally: my comments concern the whole article text, not just the lead and a bit more. Tony (talk) 02:37, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the kind words and review Tony1! I believe I have addressed all of your comments above (diff). Sorry, for, all, of, my, comma-related, issues. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 03:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I hope to write my first writing tutorial page since the year dot, entitled Comma workshop. It's the biggest issue I'm finding at FAC more broadly—more than in the academic text I edit. I don't know why. Best. Tony (talk) 06:44, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – While the article is on the short side for an FAC candidate, it does appear to comprehensively cover the subject. I didn't review the sourcing in detail, but it appears high-quality at a glance. I just have a handful of comments, with only a couple that I would call significant.

  • Support – That does it for my comments. A nice little article which deserves the star, assuming the source review turns up no problems. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review and spot check by Amakuru[edit]

The pulling guards formed a convoy around end, with the lead guard taking out the cornerback and the offside guard picking up the middle linebacker or outside linebacker. The center executed a cutoff block on the defensive tackle, and the onside offensive tackle popped the defensive end and then sealed off the middle linebacker. The blocking back lead the ballcarrier into the hole with a down block on the defensive end, and the tight end drove the outside linebacker in the direction he wanted to go. If the linebacker made an inside move, the tight end rode him in that direction and the runner hit outside. If the linebacker went outside, the tight end moved with him and the runner cut inside.[2]
The statement "parallel to the line of scrimmage" is a clearer way of stating "formed a convoy around end" and "lead the ballcarrier into the hole with a down block on the defensive end." The idea is that instead of a typical running play where the runner runs straight forward, the sweep has the runner run parallel to the line of scrimmage (the line that the center, guards, and tackles line up on) until a hole is opened by one of the blockers. Halfback is not specifically stated in that paragraph, but it is noted in the last paragraph of that page that Paul Hornung, the primary runner of the Packers sweep, is a halfback. I see this statement as an uncontroversial clarifying statement that helps clarify the differences in positions from the 1960s to today (it was common to just use the term "back" in the 1960s, while today running back or halfback, to an extent, are more common). Let me know if you believe this requires further clarification or additional sourcing. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Amakuru. I believe I have replied to or addressed all of your comments. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, great thanks Gonzo fan2007. Your answers and clarification above have satisfied my concerns. I've watched quite a few football games from across the pond in the past few years, so I know a bit about the game but not the complex tactics that go on between linesmen on the opposing sides! Anyway, happy to support on the sources front. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Wugapodes[edit]

At first glance I don't think I can support the article in its current state. I'll give my current impressions and will add more specific comments soon.

At the end of the article, I don't feel like I understand what the play is beyond something Vince Lombardi made the Packers do. It seems to give excessive weight to things that are not the main subject of the article at the expense of content about the play itself. In general, I would like the information about the play proper to be more obvious and emphasized so that it's clear the article is about the play and not the 1959–67 Packers. Until then I'll need to oppose this nomination. Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 19:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article is very well researched and the sources are of high quality and show a good breadth and depth of coverage, however the article is not comprehensive in its coverage as major facts are excluded or not placed in context: it's not clear from the article how this play differs from other plays despite this being covered in the sources; major details such as specific counters and modifications to the play as described in sources are not adequately discussed; a clear description of the play is relegated to an image caption while a longer prose description comes in the 5th paragraph of the article and third in a section entitled "Lombardi era" and confusingly not in "The sweep". Above I provided places in some sources that I think could help remedy this.
The issue of 1d (neutrality) and 4 (length) are in this case closely intertwined and related to the proportion of coverage given to Lombardi and the Packers. While major details about the play are hard to find or not covered, a great deal is dedicated to the career of Lombardi to the point where it reads more like a biography of him than an article about the play proper. For example, there is a section named "Lombardi era" though there's no indication this was part of any other era, and is confusing given that the section is about the development of the sweep not exclusively Lombardi's time on the Packers. The first paragraph of that section includes a number of details about Vince Lombardi that don't contribute to the understanding of the play or its development such as him having a football scholarship to Fordham, the nickname of his college offensive line, the win record of a high school football team, and sentences about him further developing his coaching skills which add length but not information. This leads to a disproportion of coverage, with the article focusing heavily on the success of Lombardi and the Packers but with proportionally less coverage on the nominal subject of the article, the particular play. Removing some of the extraneous information about Lombardi not related to the development of this play would likely remedy this. A renaming of the section heading so that it is more informative (the play is not discussed in any other era, so "Lombardi era" doesn't give us much information as to what will be in the section) would also help.
With regards to 4, I'm also concerned about the use of summary style and the organization of information. The section "Lombardi era" starts in 1933, 20 years before he had an NFL coaching job. If a reader wanted to know how Lombardi used this play with the Packers, they'd need to skim through two paragraphs of biographical information before getting to what is typically known as the "Lombardi era". A restructure of the section so that the most important and general information comes first and specific details later in the section would help remedy this. Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 00:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've added an additional section titled "Early development" to cover the earlier years prior to Lombardi coaching in the NFL and renamed the Lombardi era section. Let me know what you think. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 02:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked at the changes since I first commented on the article and in general I'm satisfied that the issues I've raised are mostly resolved. I no longer oppose the nomination and so have struck those mentions. Where resolved, I've struck the original comment. I also made a couple edits to the page that I think would improve it further. These should be viewed as suggestions and you're free to revert if you don't like them. I moved the first paragraph, about Lombardi's time with the Giants, into the "early development" section because it seems to fit more with the development of the packers sweep than the implementation of the packers sweep. I also slightly tweaked the "The sweep" section so it's a little more clear. I still think some of my comments above could be dealt with more, but I see nothing worth holding up the nomination over. I enjoyed reviewing this article and learned a lot, thanks for putting your work out there. Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 00:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Wugapodes. I plan on addressing your other comments in the next few days, as IRL time permits. Your edits looks good to me, appreciate the assistance and review! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wugapodes, I have reworked the Legacy section to tighten it up. Let me know if that addresses your concerns. Next, I will work on addressing your comment on how defenses tried to stop the sweep, whether it was successful, and how Lombardi reacted to these changes. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wugapodes, I believe I have addressed your comments to a certain extent. Will you take a look at the article now and strike through any resolved comments. Just want to make sure I didn't miss anything. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:53, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonzo fan2007: Sorry I've not been responding quickly, this week has given me far less free time than I had hoped with travel and visits for the US holiday. I've skimmed your most recent changes and generally they look good, so don't hold anything up on my account. I do hope to take a closer look in the next day or so once I'm finished traveling. Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 05:10, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No problem Wugapodes, no big rush. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 02:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wugapodes, just following up to see if you have had a chance to review the changes and see if they have addressed your comments. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have, yes, sorry I took so long. The prose is still well put together despite all this shuffling, it clearly and comprehensively covers it's subject, and it's verifiable to high quality sources. Support Wugapodes [thɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 05:29, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dweller[edit]

Thank you for your responses, happy to support. Additional minor comments, not needed for support: more photos would be great, like Starr or Lombardi. Also, a niggly thing, but the diagram shows the HB rushing outside the TE only, when the caption explains he could go inside too. Dunno how easy it is to get diagram amended. If it's easy, could the offence and defence be different colours? Overall, fine work, congratulations. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dweller!
I originally had a photo of Starr and Lombardi (File:Vince_lombardi_bart_starr.jpg), but the image review brought up some concerns about when the image was first published, and thus its copyright status. The consensus was to just remove the photo. I don't believe there are any other photos of those two that don't have the same issue.
The diagram is very easy to manipulate. I added colors (blue and red) to differentiate the offense and defense (see image to the right). Let me know if that is what you were looking for. If you have any other suggested changes with the graphic, let me know. Regarding going inside or outside the TE, if you look closely there is a solid line going outside the TE, and a dashed line going inside the TE. This is how the diagram is displayed in the source I used, so I am hesitant to make any changes that don't match the source. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work on the diagram. There are some interesting options here (check out the old guy with a woman - is that him?) and there's a lovely photo in this bunch --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 18:09, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately not all CC licenses can be uploaded to Wikimedia. You have to select commercial/modifications allowed for Wikimedia (at least that's my understanding). The searches become much less helpful: Bart Starr and Paul Hornung. Both the workable photos of Starr are likely tagged with an incorrect license and would have the same issues as the previous photo. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:26, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coord notes[edit]

This is a very impressive FAC debut so far, testament to the value of good preparation...

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:03, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
More