The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 31 August 2021 [1].


Snooker[edit]

Nominator(s): User:Rodney Baggins, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 13:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the sport of snooker. After a series of other FAs on snooker tournaments, myself and Rodney have tackled the main game. The article goes into depths about the history, how it has become a worldwide game, the rules, tournaments and the stature of the sport. I hope you enjoy reading, and let me know any issues you might find. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 13:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

File:Joe Davis.jpg and File:Neville Francis Fitzgerald Chamberlain.png lack information on the original publication date and/or author. Neither of them is old enough to just assume they are in the public domain. There is also image sandwiching in Important players section. (t · c) buidhe 19:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rodney has fixed the SANDWICH problem, and I am working on replacing the specific images. There is one from the national gallery that I think is ok. For now, I've commented them out of the article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 11:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
None of the early players (Joe Davis, Fred Davis, John Pulman, John Spencer, Ray Reardon) have fair-use images on Commons which is a real shame. The images used in their individual wiki articles have only been authorised for use in that one location. Same applies to Neville Chamberlain (although I'm not convinced that his image is legitimately used in his article...) – Is there any way we could approach any of the image originators to request permission to put one of these in the main Snooker article (obo Wiki organisation)? In the meantime, I've added a picture of Steve Davis into Important players section, as it looked a bit odd showing JUST Ronnie O'Sullivan. I'm also not keen on seeing History section as just a sea of text with not a single image. Rodney Baggins (talk) 11:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'm not sure how much a photograph of a famous player adds to the article. Snooker isn't one of those sports (unlike say marathon running) players' physique or appearance is closely related to their performance. I think it might be better to look for free images of people playing the sport in the past. You could try looking in old snooker publications published before 1926 to find public domain images. (t · c) buidhe 13:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose Bill Werbeniuk would be a good example of why the antithesis of that is true, although generally you do need to be pretty fit to play snooker. We do have some poor quality images, such as one for Joe Davis, as Australian copyright is a bit different, and I'm not sure if something like [2] hits the public domain barrier or not. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:50, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's an image of Chamberlain in the Illustrated London News for 4 May 1901 available via the British Newspaper Archive. Would a clipping of that be acceptable? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would still have to be licensed for use via Commons. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from BennyOnTheLoose[edit]

History

Gameplay

  • The rules don't explicitly state this, no, but it could be argued that no source is necessary, per WP:OBVIOUS. I guess it's more of an interpretation of the rules in general, and based on our own knowledge of the game, so could equally be construed as WP:OR. Would you prefer that we just cut this sentence out altogether? Then the section would begin "At the start of a frame, the object balls are positioned on the table as shown in the illustration opposite." Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about, instead, using the rules (3 f,g and h) to explain here who wins a frame/game/match? I do feel feel that "The objective is .." is WP:OR given that the only source cited for this paragraph is the rules. We won't be able to have 100% precision without restating every rule, but I think it is important to have a source if we talk about the objective of the game. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Governance and tournaments

Important Players

Notes

External links

Infobox

  • Lee's changed this back to snooker table, so I guess you need to discuss which one is correct!? Rodney Baggins (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the Shamos reference is to his entry on snooker, it says "played with 22 balls on an English billiards table." I wouldn't mind "snooker table" if there's a decent source for it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd argue this is a WP:BLUE thing. Of course snooker is played on a snooker table. People have played snooker on pool tables, on the grass (see Lawn Billiards, and on circular tables. We go into detail as to what the tables look like, and they aren't the same as English Billiards tables. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
done Rodney Baggins (talk) 11:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

General

Pending and new points

Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have done all of these now, BennyOnTheLoose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 08:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Lee Vilenski. I'm now happy to support. I wasn't originally intending for this to be a source review. However, I'm happy with the breadth and range of sources, and my concerns about particular sources, and instances where the sources hadn't supported the text, have all been resolved. So, subject to a co-ordinator being satified that this can be a source review, I'd be happy to support on sources as well as in general. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth, Gog the Mild, and Ian Rose: - now this one is together, and Benny is happy with the sourcing, is there anything further that I need to do? Can I start up another one whilst waiting for this one to close/more comments? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 12:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Lee Vilenski, sorry but no. It needs review of the source formatting. I have listed it for this at rquests. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:27, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lee Vilenski I added in a couple of details where I had them for references. Is there a location for the Barzun Press reprint of the Peall book? Gog the Mild, can you see any other issues pending on ref formats? If so, probably better to let another reviewer take a look before this passes. Thanks. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM[edit]

Lead/infobox

History

Gameplay

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:13, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Governance and tournaments

Important players

Variants

Just references to review on this first pass. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, but if I see an open review with no comments after a week or so I give a nudge, just in case it has slipped either the nominator's or reviewer's mind. In your own time. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm content that my issues have been resolved, and I might be a bit sketchy online over the next couple of weeks so I'm happy to support at this time. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Aza24[edit]

In general, I'm leaning towards support, mainly per my read through and comments at PR. However, I'm a bit concerned that some of the (seemingly high-quality) book sources are under used (this is a point I brought up at PR as well). This of course brings up the issue of having a thorough survey or relevant literature for the sake of doing so, vs sourcing what information is needed from where its available. Some specific comments:

I do wonder if sources like Maume, Clare and Nunns are really preferable over some of these, especially when the Evertons are completely unused. Interested to hear what the nominators think of these comments and sorry if I'm being a nuisance... Aza24 (talk) 20:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I don't mind taking a look at these. I tend to think that we cite the information in the article, and that additional references, ones that are great quality are used as an overall to cover the article, and then we cite specifically to the books in question for specific parts inline. Happy to go through the article and inline cite using these items, but as I don't have copies; I'd have to rent some out just to add the inline to the article, where there are already RS covering that information. The second point is absolutely right, and I'll fix that. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 08:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that questioning sources is valid for an FAC. I was a little disappointed to find, having bought the Hayes book, that it seems to contain plagiarism from Morrison's The Hamlyn Encyclopedia of Snooker - some of the entries barely have the text changed over several paragraphs. I'd regard that one as dispensible. As I mentioned in the PR, I'd expect Black Farce and Cue Ball Wizards to be a key source, as it's relatively recent. (A lot of the good books like Everton's History are much older). Some of Everton's older books do have more of an international perspective (e.g. Snooker: The Records (1985)) and he covers the amateur game in detail in most of his works - I think it's possible the article is still too focused on professional play, but there's also an argument that it's the professional game that gets most attention in reliable sources. I also really like Masters of the Baize but as that focuses on individuals, it might not be all that useful here. Shamos's Encyclopedia is an excellent source IMO, and I'm glad to see it employed. I'm not sure that the CueSport book has been well used, as most of the references seem to point to pages of results rather than the narrative history. I haven't identified any glaring omissions from the article, so citing what's there properly to an RS, not necessarily to the best RS, works for me. I'm also interested to see other reviewers' views on this. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, absolutely - I'm not saying it's not a valid criticism, just that whilst book sources are fantastic, everything in the article is already cited to RS. We could absolutely go through the article and inline cite to Cue Ball Wizards, and the Shamos Encyclopedia, but it may be a little redundant for an FAC. I'd be interested if there was items in these books that are completely omited in the article we have, as that may help on the article. I think because I have a lack of these book sources, I've used a lot more of those fully available; or ones I can get my hands on. However, there is a version of Black Farce on google books, so I've added a couple sfns to that, and I'll add some more. Would that, perhaps give you both less worries? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 13:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24, if I were to add some more inline book citations, would you be happy to support the nomination? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping, I rather awkwardly missed some of these messages earlier. I think in general it would, and I see you've already added some Everton citations. The redundancy is what I was alluring to earlier ("for the sake off..."), but if said books are in the bibliography I would expect inline for them, otherwise they would fit better in a further reading section. Aza24 (talk) 04:10, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 Indeed, I've added some additional. The only non-inline cited text I have on order (will arrive on Wednesday, apparently), so I'll thoroughly cite pieces from the text when I get hold of it (I can remove or leave it there until then). Let me know if there is anything additional actionable :). Everything else you have brought up has been addressed now. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 08:10, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24, I have now got the Everton book, so this is now cited. I will add a couple more pieces with some below, but is there anything outstanding for this nom that you'd like me to address? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping. The referencing has certainly improved! A couple more things:
I'll take a look now. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 19:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We had such a thing, but it was removed over licencing issues. I'm still trying to find a free image of Chamberlain. I think it's unlikely we'd find an image from the 1927 event, and it's likely if it did exist, it'd probably be unlikely we could trace the copyright owner (and then they would have had to have died in the 20 years following the event for it to be free. We do have images of Joe Davis, but that is further down in the notable players list, which is I think where he belongs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 19:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good to hear you've been working on this, it feels lacking without an image, but I can certainly understand the difficulty
I can have a look into this, although in my opinion, images are to be used to accent the prose, which is why I don't really like galleries. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 19:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Usually I would concur completely, but at the moment, the "A shot using a rest..." image shows up next to the second paragraph of the objective section, which doesn't really make sense. There are certainly other options available, but I thought I'd make you aware of this

Coordinator note[edit]

This is clearly an important topic, so I want to give it every chance, but the nomination has now been open a month, and while it has attracted a fair bit of attention it has no supports. Unless there are signs of a consensus to promote forming over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support and minor comments from Chidgk1[edit]

"gained its identity" sounds a bit odd but not sure what to put instead - maybe "was invented" or "took shape"

Suggest you install https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Trappist_the_monk/HarvErrors as it shows a couple which need fixing

Additionally, if you liked this comment, or are looking for an article to review I have one at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_Turkey Chidgk1 (talk) 16:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, I'd never seen that script, so I've done a little work with it to make sure things are up to date. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

intriguing. will wait till wednesday with baited breath.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:24, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good news Casliber, it has arrived. It is much as I though, it does (albeit not in-depth) cover some changes in rules. They have been mostly the same since 1919, with some regional differences prior, that I've covered. The only rules that I can find that are different now, is the touching ball (1927), the minimum four point foul (no date, 1920s somewhen), and the foul and a miss rule, which isn't covered in this book, as I think it's a post 1986 thing (I think 1995, but sourcing is poor). I've added some of this to the article, hopefully this covers some of your worries. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The tidbits added are exactly what I mean. Nice work! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looking on track for FA-hood WRT comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source formatting review by Amakuru - Passed[edit]

That's probably about it. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 15:08, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Amakuru - thanks for stepping in on this one. The article means a lot to me, so I'm super glad to have got it there. Apologies for the issues with that cite, I was doing most of the fixes on mobile, which doesn't always show the punctuation right anyway. Thanks again, Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 20:19, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is when a bibliography is used in the sense of an article's subject's works. (MOS:WORKS.) For lists of sources expanding on short references - as in this case - they should be in alphabetical order. (In passing MOS:NOTES discourages but does not forbid titling sections on lists of citations to sources "Bibliography" - "Bibliography may be confused with the complete list of printed works by the subject of a biography".)
Ok, that's pretty confusing. Why we have two different MOS requirements for a list of books is a bit silly, but I've put them in alphabetical order. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 18:14, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Me neither. Personally I think including them is best practice.
See OCLC#Identifiers and linked data and WorldCat.
Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 18:14, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.