Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 21:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the history of home venues used by the Wales national football team. This article was started quite sometime ago and was on my list of possible improvements for sometime before I finally got round to it. I think it makes for a relatively interesting read and is now up to the standard required to be a FA. I look forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 21:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comment – Move south and pre-war success: In "made it the last Wales International held at a rugby ground until 1989", why is "International" capitalized?Giants2008 (Talk) 22:38, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a typo, thanks for spotting that. Kosack (talk) 21:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You overuse "host", sometimes twice in one sentence. I realise there's bound to be some repetition, but a bit more variation is possible
I've removed around a quarter of the uses and replaced them with alternatives. Let me know if there are anymore that seem particularly repetitive that I may have missed. Kosack (talk) 13:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
alternate venues—unless you are writing in US English, I think you mean "alternative". If the word is what you meant, say which venues are alternating - Done
one English newspaper—no harm to name it here
Unfourtantley, the source itself only refers to an English newspaper rather than the specific title. Kosack (talk) 13:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Crowd control was an issue again as large numbers of spectators watched the game for free—not sure that this is a crowd control issue, just free spectating
I've replaced crowd control with gate control to hopefully reflect the situation clearer. Kosack (talk) 13:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau—perhaps a Saesneg translation too? - Done
dramatic drop in attendance for international matches due to Welsh results in qualifying competitions—insert "poor"? - Done
@Jimfbleak: Thanks very much for taking a look, I've addressed the points above. Let me know if there is anything else. Kosack (talk) 13:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 8 (also checked #7 as both are paired)--Information present, used appropriately. Happy with these.
Ref 33--Mentions the stand being destroyed by fire but I can't see any reference to thieves with explosives; where did this part come from?
Added a source for that. Kosack (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 45--Source doesn't mention that the attendance record stood for 40 years, but does state that it was a record for the venue. I would assume the length of the record may be mentioned in the previous ref (44) but this is an offline print source which I can't check. If it is, consider appending an inline citation after the "40 years" claim.
Added an inline cite. Kosack (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 67--On its first use, it's used appropriately, but it might be worth noting why the Taylor Report lead to a decrease in capacity (converting standing to all seated) as this information is in the source to be used. Second use is appropriate too.
Added the conversion to seating info. Kosack (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 83--Not sure of this one. The article specifically mentions success in the 2016 Euros which the source doesn't specify ("In the intervening seven years, fans have packed the smaller Cardiff City Stadium to create a fervent atmosphere, which has been an important factor in recent Welsh success", but that doesn't attribute anything to any one tournament). This may need either reworded or an additional source used to back up the specific claim.
Added a source that mentions the atmosphere as a positive during the qualifying campaign. Kosack (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 85--Seems fine. Perhaps a degree of reading between the lines for the claim of Cardiff's capacity being an issue but it does mention increased crowd size definitively and the claim of future matches for large crowds is there in black and white.
Seems like there are a few issues which could be looked at here; I can take another look at this once these have been addressed. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇˣ 11:49, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Grapple X: Thanks for taking a look, I've addressed the points above. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The additions seem fine; AGF on the new print source as always. I'll check another few at random shortly just to make sure nothing else has slipped through the cracks. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇˣ 21:06, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Round two:
The current ref 83 (Grauniad article) points to a "page not found" error. It might be possible to relocate it on their site or try an archival link.
Fixed url. Kosack (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 9--fine
Ref 71--fine
Ref 68--Source doesn't mention the claim that "the side suffered its first defeat at the site of the National Stadium since its original incarnation in 1910".
Added further cite. Kosack (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 6--Source doesn't mention Hampden Park nor when it hosted any international matches; only that the Racecourse is the record-holder.
This was actually from the previous ref but a copy editor suggested splitting the refs to separate sentences. I've moved them back together now so this covers the info. Kosack (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having taken two passes at the sources here, it unfortunately seems to me that although this article is well-researched and put together, it isn't necessarily reflective of its sources--I'm sure a lot of this information is true but it's been fairly common to see information attributed to sources which make no mention of it. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇˣ 12:02, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a little unfair to suggest that given the points I've addressed in the second pass. A handful of positioning fixes has fixed the majority of your points, that doesn't suggest the sources are not reflected correctly. Kosack (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, every instance raised has been addressed so far but there have been several instances of sources used to cite information which they don't mention, which is more than a "positioning fix". I haven't gone as far as opposing, as the prose and comprehensiveness all seem more than good enough, but it's at least fair to point out the teething problems with sourcing so any passing co-ord can judge whether they're satisfied that it's been adequately addressed. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇˣ 13:29, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Grapple X: I've gone through every reference in the article over the last two days (both online and offline) and tightened where possible, adding extra refs for anything remotely borderline and splitting extended page numbers into more precise sections. I'd appreciate if you could take a further look which will hopefully change your mind. Kosack (talk) 09:20, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did the GA review of the article, and outside of the comments I made then, there's not much to show this isn't suitable for promotion. The only thing I would like is either all the images to show on one side, or that they alternate. Nothing stopping me from supporting though. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski(talk • contribs) 15:38, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This still needs an image review and further comprehensive commentary before we consider for promotion. I've listed at FAC Urgents but if we don't get much more in the next week or two I think we'll have to archive. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I was adhering to that, can you point out what bits need addressing? Kosack (talk) 20:22, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I misread these, and though there was one caption that wasn't a full sentence. All of these are now fully compliant with CAPFRAG. epicgenius (talk) 20:25, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ninian Park (which hosted its first international in 1911) and Vetch Field (which hosted its first in 1921) - where are these fields, respectively? Same with Millennium Stadium.
There are a bunch of parenthetical comments in the history sections, which I think might be better integrated into the text using other punctuation. E.g. Buoyed by the income, the FAW arranged a second South Wales match for England's 1896 visit (the first time a team other than Ireland had been hosted away from the Racecourse) could use a comma instead of parentheses. There are a bunch of parentheses in the article itself, which interrupts the flow a little.
These were added by a copyeditor when I submitted the article for review. I wasn't overly keen on them really but let them slide. However, I've reverted many of them back to their original form now. Kosack (talk) 20:22, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I have for now. Overall it's a pretty good history of the different venues of the stadium throughout the years. epicgenius (talk) 16:49, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Epicgenius: Thanks very much for taking a look. I've replied to the points listed above. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 20:22, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Two, Ninian Park..." maybe worth noting the locations of these two (Cardiff and Swansea). - Added
" grounds (including the Cardiff City Stadium and the Liberty Stadium). The Cardiff City Stadium was" maybe " grounds including the Cardiff City Stadium and the Liberty Stadium. The former was..." to avoid quick repeating the name of the stadium? - Done
" The Racecourse has held more matches than any other venue (94 by January 2020). Its total is twelve more than " -> " The Racecourse has held more matches than any other venue with 94 by January 2020, twelve more than " - Done
Would the Old Racecourse not be notable enough for an article since an international football match was played there?
Possibly, I'm not really sure of the notability criteria for a stadium. Kosack (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"host international matches, and it has hosted more Welsh international matches" repetitive prose. Not sure right now how to fix it but quick repeats of host and international matches is clunky.
Removed the latter part, I don't think it fits the timeline of the prose really and can be descerned elsewhere. Kosack (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In fact you use "host" five times in three sentences there which is a little jarring.
Dropped one with the previous point and changed a second. Let me know if you think anymore need dropping. Kosack (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Wales' only matches were played " odd "only" here, maybe move to "Wales' matches were played only" - Done
"its 5,000 total attendance" -> "its attendance of 5,000" - Done
"a second South Wales match" potentially confusing, perhaps "a second match in South Wales..."? - Done
"a large crowd rewarded " no numbers? And no year given for this match in the prose. - Added
"Ninian Park and the Racecourse Ground alternated matches " -> "Matches alternated between Ninian Park and the Racecourse Ground..." - Done
"Vetch Field hosted.." caption, could use a "pictured in ..." date for context that this is a different looking Vetch Field to the one mentioned in the caption! - Added
"area (including Ford, Ivor Allchurch and Ray Daniel), and Allchurch contributed" -> "area including Ford, Ray Daniel and Ivor Allchurch, the latter contributing..."? - Done
Consider linking FIFA. - Done
"World Cup qualifying match against Denmark at the Racecourse the following year, the lowest crowd ever recorded for a Wales World Cup qualification match" again, lots of repetition here. - Reworded
"to Anfield in Liverpool by the FAW;" Liverpool is over linked. - Removed
"against England in" in the caption, England is over linked. - Removed
National Stadium and Finland also overlinked.
I can't find a repeat link of the National Stadium, do you mean the Arms' Park pipe? If so, I thought this was worth including given the change of name even though the site was essentially the same. Finland repeat removed. Kosack (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Welsh rugby-union side" I've not seen rugby union hyphenated.
Not sure how that happened, fixed. Kosack (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"an all-seated stadium" I usually refer to this as "all-seater"? - Done
Graham Williams needs a comma in his redirect. - Added
"£121 million[77] (including a contribution from the FAW). " odd ref placement, could easily go at the end of the sentence. - Fixed
Finland and Brazil are over linked. - Removed
Trinidad and Tobago prefer and to &. - Fixed
Col scopes could be used in the summary table. - Added
Minor note: once sorted by any column, the original order can't be restored, i.e. the grounds with one match don't re-order as you have them to start with. If it was me, I'd order the table in chronological order to match the article prose, not initially in order of most matches. Something to consider?
I think I've fixed the sorting issue now and the original listing can be restored. Kosack (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could also consider putting thumbnails of each stadium (where available of course) in the table.
Aside from the Stadiums already pictured, I'd only be able to add images for two more grounds. Feels like I'd be repeating somewhat. Kosack (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Refs: is it BBC Sport or BBC Sport? - Fixed
Convert ISBNs to 13-digit if possible.
Check the result, but the article can be run through the hyphenator which adds hyphens to 13-digit ISBNs and converts 10 digit to 13 digits. Kees08 (Talk) 16:14, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done, thanks Kees08. Kosack (talk) 21:40, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's all I have. I am obliged to note this review will be part of my WikiCup submission, but that has no impact on this candidate nor the calibre of my review. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 10:28, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: Thanks very much for taking a look, I've addressed all of your points above. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A marker for review. Will get to it later today. KJP1 (talk) 09:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(Absence of an) Infobox
Slightly surprising at first sight, but understandable as I'd struggle to think how to populate it, given the article covers multiple stadia. Are there any precedents for other national stadium histories? For the avoidance of doubt, not suggesting for one minute that it's an FA requirement!
The only other two articles along the lines are for the English and Scottish sides which also have none present. As you say, I'm unsure really of what would actually be worth including in one. Kosack (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
History - Early years
"The ground included a separate tent for women and their male escorts" - in 1911! Very broadminded, especially for North Wales. "companions"?
Haha, the escorts was a leftover of a copyedit that I requested. Companions fits much better! Kosack (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The venue, provided by George Douglas-Pennant, 2nd Baron Penrhyn (who was present at the match), was on the grounds of Penrhyn Estate" - "was in the grounds of Penrhyn Castle"? - or link to the castle if you want to keep estate. - Linked
"generating a £147 profit for the FAW" -I know that the inflation templates aren't that accurate, but they do give an idea, (equivalent to £17,808 in 2021)". Unhelpfully, I can't find the right inflation converter at the moment - this isn't it - but the BoE converter puts £147 in 1894 at just shy of £20K today (£19,250). Now helpfully found by John of Reading.
"The FAW returned its attention to North Wales" - I suppose you can return attention, but it reads a little oddly to me. "turned its attention back to NW"? - Done
History - Move south and pre-war success (1900–1945)
"25 North Wales clubs signed a letter of complaint to the FAW and requested a general meeting with the governing body" - not sure what the "general" signifies. EGM or just "meeting"?
I think it probably would have been akin to an egm but the source wouldn't support it so I've dropped the general part. Kosack (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
History - Post war success and decline (1946–1990)
"saying that "the appropriate authorities at Swansea had not found it convenient to meet with the wishes of the council" - this is a bit oblique. Does Stead not explain what the disagreement was about?
Unfortunately not. Kosack (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Ninian Park hosted the first foreign international side to visit Wales the previous year" - the word order threw me bit here. Perhaps, "The previous year Ninian Park hosted the first foreign international side to visit Wales, when Belgium were defeated..."? And, a minor point, is it Belgium were or Belgium was, i.e. is the national side singular or plural? - Reworded, amended to singular
"When Israel's political status prompted several sides to refuse to play against the nation, however, Wales received another chance to qualify; according to FIFA rules, a team could not qualify for a World Cup without playing a match. In a two-legged play-off,..." - this is not easy for a non-specialist to understand. I had to head off and read the bluelink, twice! So Wales failed to qualify, Israel did, but couldn't proceed as they'd had passes in all three of their qualifying matches. Wales was then randomly selected for a play-off, which they won. Is that it? Not really got a suggestion but it would help if it could be clarified.
In a nutshell, yes. Israel had three byes which FIFA weren't happy with so they arranged a playoff against a European team. Belgium were actually drawn first but also refused the tie, Wales were drawn second and accepted. I've expanded slightly to (hopefully) make it clearer. Kosack (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The traditional British anthem "God Save the Queen" - I'm assuming the bit on dropping God Save the Queen is sourced to Stead. As an aside, the Hen Wlad article suggests that God Bless the Prince of Wales was sung along with GSTQ until then. Not saying a change is required.
"and was infuriated when the flag of his home nation was not raised before the game" - again, just a query from a non-specialist. Is it usual for the flag of the referee's home country to be flown before a match?
Not in the modern game, I'm unsure if it was common practice during this period. The Independent states that it was the wrong flag that was raised, while WalesOnline and Stead only describe his ire being caused by the lack of an East German flag. Kosack (talk) 19:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
History - Search for a new home (1990–present)
"The decision to move the tie was criticised by Wales assistant manager Graham Williams" - so, who made the decision for Anfield, if the Welsh were opposed? UEFA?
Indeed, as noted, the Danes complained to UEFA that they should receive the same treatment as Italy. Kosack (talk) 19:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The decision was cited as a major factor in the team's success" - I'm not quite getting this and I've read both the cites. Is it saying that the smaller ground, which was filled closer to capacity than the Millennium would have been, created a better atmosphere for the team?
Yes, that's what I was inferring. Kosack (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
List of venues
The thing that confused me here is the separate listings for The Arms Park, the National Stadium and the Millennium Stadium (Principality Stadium as of 2016?), particularly as the National Stadium links to The Arms Park. Given that they were/are (nearly) all on the same site, would a brief footnote setting out the, rather complicated, history be of use to readers? I say this as a non-specialist who nevertheless used to live in a flat in Riverside with a splendid view of, but unfortunately not in to!, the old stadium. KJP1 (talk) 11:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The National Stadium/original Arms Park link is an odd one for me. Personally, I would have a standalone article for The National Stadium but we don't have that. I've added a note at the first mention of the National Stadium to hopefully define the link. I'm not sure if there can be any confusion with the Millennium though, I would say it's a well known place in its own right. Kosack (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sources
All look good to me.
A very-well written and comprehensive article that, aside from a couple of queries noted above, is easily accessible to the non-specialist. Look forward to supporting after the comments/suggestions above have been reviewed, but not necessarily actioned. KJP1 (talk) 12:00, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@KJP1: Thanks very much for reviewing the article. I've responded to all of the points above. Let me know if there are any further issues. Kosack (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are not. A fine article which I'm pleased to Support. KJP1 (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the ((featured article candidates)) template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.