The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Casliber via FACBot (talk) 2:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC) [1].

J. K. Rowling[edit]

Notified: Serendipodous; WT:WPBIO; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment; WT:BRISTOL; WT:CHL; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women writers; WT:WOMEN; WT:NOVELS; WT:FANTASY; WT:WPHP; talk page notification 2021-11-26; additional talk page notification

Review section[edit]

I am nominating this featured article for review because... it no longer meets WP:FACR due to instability, length/unnecessary detail, and lack of summary style. ––FormalDude talk 10:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FormalDude, please notify appropriate editors/projects and provide diffs per the instructions at WP:FAR. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC) Reply[reply]
Notifications still not done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC) Reply[reply]
I've taken care of this. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: I have made a proposal to split off the award list to its own article. I don't see the point in listing all the awards an immensely successfuly writer has received in the BLP and the major ones could be easily summarized (see Laurence_Olivier#Honours for an example, and the relevant discussion in the talk page here). It's just one of the many issues this article has with summary style, as identified in the general case above by FormalDude, in my opinion. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:16, 17 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FARC section[edit]

Issues raised in the review include scope, comprehensiveness, length and stability. DrKay (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment: I have been pinged in a couple of different places, with the possible implication that I have granted extra time to this FAR. (here and here by Ipigott). To avoid confusion, @WP:FAR coordinators: can one of you clarify possible timelines for this article, and specify if time has been granted? This looks like it might be a complicated FAR, so this might also need a dedicated FAR coord to be the only point-person for decision making, similar to how Cas Liber stepped up in British Empire and laid out timelines for closing that FARC. Z1720 (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Sorry Z1720 if I misunderstood you but on the basis of your previous comments I was fully prepared to see what I could do to sort things out in connection with the missing section on literary analysis. If this is no longer possible, please let me know as I have other important matters to attend to.--Ipigott (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • @Ipigott: I am not an FAR co-ordinator, so I cannot grant extra time and don't want there to be the impression that I can. Hopefully the FAR co-ords can describe a possible timeline for this FAR. Z1720 (talk) 19:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • It's been mentioned that there is drafting underway to address the concern raised wrt literary criticism; certainly we can give some time to see how that proceeds. I also want to be clear that the simple existence of an RfC, even a contentious one, will not result in delisting on its own, and that FAR is not intended to be a dispute resolution venue. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:52, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've looked at the article more thoroughly now, and find myself in agreement with Johnbod. For all the noise from (what User:Xxanthippe referred to as) "zealots", I expected to find the article in much worse shape, and if Vanamonde93's concerns can be addressed, I believe the work is doable during a FAR. FAR has undertaken to improve articles in much worse shape than this one, and this is a BLP worthy of a save. The original FAC nominator, User:Serendipodous (a competent FA writer), last edited the article in December 2020, so it was not an abandoned FA to the extent of many others we see at FAR, and normal editing by experienced content writers should be able to address most of what is now below FA standards.
I see WP:PROSELINE everywhere in the recent material, where paragraph after irrelevant paragraph begins with a date, and sometimes those dates are announcements of forthcoming events that already happened, so can be removed, and prose smoothed out. There is also WP:CITATION OVERKILL everywhere, when a few high-quality sources will do. There are also numerous short choppy paragraphs. And see WP:METRO. More specifics that need addressing will surface as work progresses, but this is not the disaster it has been made out to be, and often, once editing focuses on building content the way it should be built, differences fade into the background as collaborative dialogue is modeled as the way to address those differences.
It is hard to find a recent FA to compare to, but looking at an average between what is at Angelina Jolie (an FA still in good shape, of someone whose non-acting profile has attracted attention as has Rowling's non-writing profile) and what is at James Joyce (recent WP:FASA of a literary giant), I found that: While these numbers can't be taken too seriously because neither Joyce nor Jolie strictly compare to Rowling, the straight biographical info about Rowling's life (this is a bio) might be beefed up somewhat, with some of the views/politics/charity sent to sub-articles. But this isn't an entirely useful analysis since the three figures are so different, and I can't come up with a more similar biographical article to compare to. The take home is that the size of the analysis of her writing seems to be about right here, as that can be covered in sub-articles, but there may be some imbalance towards views/politics/charitable and away from coverage of other biographical aspects of her life; again, this would depend on whether there is such info from high-quality sources that is left out.
I continue to recommend we hold in FAR in the expectation that someone will step up to do the work. If zealotry leads to edit warring, measures to address that more directly can be taken. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Look who’s on the job :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:47, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is the point you are making? Xxanthippe (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC).Reply[reply]
Time will tell, but the star may be salvageable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The purpose of a talk page is to improve an article, not to comment gratuitously and ambiguously on other editors. I suggest you strike your comment. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC).Reply[reply]
I've had it on my watch for years. I didn't thinking the timing for the FAR was great and meant to get over here to comment earlier but forgot to watch the FAR, and now it's very long. I don't mind picking at the "themes" section but can't get access to all the pdfs I'd like. This one looks promising if anyone here has access to T&F and could send it on to me that would be helpful. Themes and style don't need a huge section here, really only summaries, whereas the individual book articles should have longer lit crit. sections. Will report back in a few days after taking a look at what else I can access. I've never thought the article itself is really bad; I've seen much worse. Victoria (tk) 00:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If the Coords agree the FAR can stay open for work to proceed, a lot of the length (above) was about making the case not to delist, and can be moved to talk to make way for the real work here, if others agree. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nikkimaria might you get the source mentioned above and email to Victoriaearle? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately I don't have access to that one - suggest WP:RX if no one else here does. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No prob. I submitted a renewal at the TWL portal, and for Project Muse - which will probably be more helpful. Looks like things are moving. Victoria (tk) 03:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Victoriaearle: I believe I have access to that, but not in directly shareable form. I can give you a few individual pages, and can work on adding stuff from it myself. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:40, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the offer Vanamonde93. Last night I was only dipping in and hadn't noticed yet that it's being used quite heavily, so I don't think there's any need to add more from that source. It looks like I can get what I need from Jstor. 21:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

NOTE, for anyone not familiar with FAR, work here is not typically done in days, rather weeks, and sometimes takes more than a month. The LEAD is usually best addressed last. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: May I add minor points to your todo list? I'd rather not start a separate one for things that I haven't the time to fix, but are relatively easily fixed. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Vanamonde93 Please do! I tend to raise larger issues in a separate talk page section, and link that from both here and article talk (in case the broader audience at article talk isn’t following major developments here), but the ToDo list is intended as a summary that we’ll all add to/strike from. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:01, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To Do List

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1/Archive 1 § To Do List
 – SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 18 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update 8 Jan

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1/Archive 2 § Update 8 Jan
 – SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 1 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update 14 January

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1/Archive 4 § Update 14 January
 – SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update 1 February 2022

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1/Archive 4 § Update 1 February 2022
 – SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update 15 February All items above have been addressed, work on the Transgender section is still deferred, editing has slowed, and we are working on a draft of the lead (with the exception of the Transgender portions). There has been no article instability since the brief edit war of 5 January. Aza24, Buidhe and Z1720 have looked at the article so far; this might be a good time for Barkeep49 and Johnbod to have a more thorough look, recognizing that we haven't yet worked on the TG people section, and lead work is in progress. Hog Farm might you look in now as well ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 15 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll see. A bit busy for the next few days, so don't wait too long for me. As a heads up, I have no familiarity with Rowling and never read the books as a kid because my family considered them objectional. Hog Farm Talk 19:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hog Farm, no hurry, and no prior knowledge makes for a good reviewer! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 15 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Similar to Hog my time is limited at the moment but I'm adding a note to do a read through and anticipate getting to it later this week. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No hurry; I am pinging people for feedback in bits and pieces, so we aren't overwhelmed by too many comments at once. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 15 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will be starting some comments on the talk page. Hog Farm Talk 01:51, 18 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nothing new to add; article remains stable, content improvement has slowed (basically finished except for TG people section), all commentary raised here has been addressed, and I'm aware of no MOS, prose, comprehensive or any other deficiencies, outside of the TG people section. Work on an interim lead has begun, with the idea to progress to the Transgender people section after some interim improvement to the lead is settled on. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The new lead was installed on 2 March with no kerfuffle; the article remains stable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Update 17 March

The interim lead that was installed on 2 March has held up with no kerfuffle, and the article remains stable.
Rowling made some news during the last month because of long-standing involvement with orphanage advocacy reform in Ukraine, and a personal appeal for donations towards Ukraine relief, along with a tweet she made in March related to interpretations of UK laws on gender issues. A very minor amount of disruptive editing was seen at J. K. Rowling, as well as at sub-articles Politics of J. K. Rowling and Featured List of awards and nominations received by J. K. Rowling; all have been handled by normal editing and discretionary sanctions. Disruptive editing, misinterpreted sources, or otherwise fixed-through-normal-processes edits were:

The article is stable, the interim lead has held, and we should be ready to move on to cleaning up the issues remaining in the section on Transgender people. The issues to be addressed in that secion include:

These adjustments should not be difficult, but when I asked on talk who was ready to begin, I got little response, so will ping people this week if there is no further feedback re addressing the remaining section. If other editors see other issues that need to be addressed, I hope they will list them and we can get moving. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree that the current state of that subsection isn't ideal, but unlike with the literary analysis section, I do not think it is fatal to FA status; relative to the excess verbosity that has crept into other FAs, this is almost trivial, and while source improvements would be useful, what the best sources say isn't terribly different from what the article says at the moment. I would welcome further improvement, but have no time to make any myself, and in the absence of any rewrites would !vote to keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We are in violent agreement :) I believe that the work needed in this section should be minor compared to the literary work already done, but would like to hear from others before we get going! I also agree that the article is now essentially at FA standard, although the issues in the Transgender people do open the article to charges of WP:UNDUE, as the length is not proportional. And the citation overkill just looks sloppy, particularly when we can use Pugh 2020 to say most of what is there now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Basically agreed as well: the only issue I see as really serious on skimming the section is the obvious overcitation issues. I'd also like to get rid of detailed lists of who supports her and who doesn't: other than the actors of the main characters in the movies, I think most of these people aren't important to name. I'd also like to get rid of the lengthy quotes from Rowling: besides the general WP policy against lengthy quotes, Rowling's detractors usually don't accuse her of saying outright hateful things in plain text but of using dog-whistles. So, if we include the quotes, we would also need to include an explanation of why the quotes are objectionable, and that's way too much. Just say she's said things people objected to and don't dwell on the details. Loki (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Continued on talk page, where the work will happen. (This page is more of a summary of where we stand on the FAR.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for your work on this article. I don't have much to add that I haven't said a while back about that section, but feel free to ping me when more specifics are proposed. I do suggest coming up with a better name for the section itself; what her comments were on had more to do with policy or how to conceptualize gender itself rather than on "people" per se, and that framing could be argued to be biased in favor of the critics who rhetorically tend to equate comments on those matters with being against a group of people. Perhaps "transgender topics" (like the article Feminist views on transgender topics), "transgender identity" or "gender identity". Crossroads -talk- 23:40, 18 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Crossroads I have been concerned about that distinction as well. Perhaps that should be our first order of business, if we can convene enough editors for a discussion. I wanted to allow some time for everything done so far to settle, to make sure it was stable. I'll wait a few more days to see who engages, and then start a section on FAR talk to address first the section name. Do you have anything else to add to my list of issues above? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 19 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd like to keep it "transgender people" (or perhaps "transgender rights") for two reasons. Number one is that's pretty clearly the most common name for this, and number two is that I disagree that Rowling is talking about topics as airy as "how to conceptualize gender itself". None of her comments are academic, they're all situated quite firmly in a political context, and that political context is the acceptance of transgender people in the UK. She supported Maya Forstater who insulted and misgendered specific trans people. She opposes trans women in women's bathrooms and is for more gatekeeping against legal changing of gender. It's not just "sex is real" that she's arguing for; "sex is real" is rhetoric for a policy agenda that she outlines in the essay and which has much more concrete consequences than some academic argument about what exactly gender is. Loki (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My general sense is that if we trim the quotes and get rid of the "these people liked what she said and these people didn't" litany, it will be of acceptable quality. I am still unable to take the lead on this due to IRL commitments and general wiki-fatigue, but I will weigh in on specific proposals if pinged. Perhaps the easiest approach would simply be to trim specific sentences and cites that do not add anything useful, rather than trying to rewrite the prose wholesale? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:30, 20 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with this approach. As everyone else seems busy, I will work up a suggestion/start along these lines--perhaps by today, but first order of business is to sort the current dilemma wrt collaborative editing. [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I basically agree with this approach too. However, there's one set of reactions I think we ought to leave in, and that's the reactions of people involved with the movies (e.g. Daniel Radcliff, Emma Watson, etc). I think that those reactions are an important part of Rowling's notability by themselves. It's not really notable that Julie Bindel supports her or that GLAAD doesn't, but I do think it's notable that a long list of people involved with her work don't support her. Loki (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
LokiTheLiar, would you mind recording this with the discussions on the talk page instead of here? We use this page to summarize back where we stand on the work, and if long discussions take hold here, they can stall the overall FAR page. This is a point around which consensus will need to develop. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That sounds reasonable to me. I'm in the "I basically agree with this approach too" camp, but I'm pretty sure that Loki's idea will be controversial, because it will result in a bunch of negative coverage without balance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the detailed summary, SG.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Workshopping the transgender section is underway on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discussion has remained largely collegial and productive, advancing steadily to the third draft of the transgender section. Progress has been slower than anticipated as it turns out the RFC conducted on the lead in December revolved around some text that was not even sourced in the article, so there has been more re-writing than anticipated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JKR FARC break[edit]

The article has been rewritten, with a new lead installed on 2 March and a rewrite of the material in the Transgender section installed on 7 April. Through four months at FAR, the article has remained stable; a few instances of disruptive editing were dealt with swiftly by admin actions.
Please review and enter comments or Keep/Delist declarations on this page as to whether the article now meets WP:WIAFA.
With still some recentness of the controversy over Rowling's comments, it is anticipated that content may need updating as more scholarly sources become available. Passing FAR never means that content is "cast in concrete", and it is anticipated that this article will need updating in about a year as more scholarly sources appear; updates can be handled through normal editing, so please keep the article on your watchlist.
Pinging everyone who has been involved with this FAR. @4meter4, A. C. Santacruz, AleatoryPonderings, Aza24, Barkeep49, Bastun, BilledMammal, Bodney, Buidhe, Crossroads, Ealdgyth, Endwise, Extraordinary Writ, Firefangledfeathers, FormalDude, Guerillero, Hog Farm, Hurricane Noah, Innisfree987, Ipigott, Johnbod, LokiTheLiar, Newimpartial, Olivaw-Daneel, RandomCanadian, Sdkb, Sideswipe9th, Silver seren, SMcCandlish, Vanamonde93, Xxanthippe, Zmbro, and Z1720: Not pinging Victoriaearle per express request (she is following as able) and Ben MacDui, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Mike Christie, Peacemaker67, Rominchin who were only pinged here originally regarding specific questions in their specialty area (access to news archives, how to position military acronyms or college degree, how to interpret past RFC).
A post-FAR RFC is planned (if needed) to examine one section heading. No one has opined that the heading selection is fatal to FA status, FAR is not dispute resolution, and resolution can be handled through normal editing processes. That said, should participants have the time, it would be most appreciated if they could review Talk:J. K. Rowling/Section heading proposal with an eye towards helping winnow the list of possibilities and opine whether the planned RFC formatting is sound. Please enter your separate suggestions about winnowing and fine tuning the planned RFC at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1#Discussion of section heading proposals.
Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.4meter4 (talk) 23:29, 12 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can a date (even if it is a month and year) be given for the UK publication of Christmas Pig?
  • Note f needs a citation at the end of the note.
  • In the Influences section, Lewis and Goudge are first mentioned by their last name, then wikilinked in the subsequent paragraph. Any particular reason for this?
I've read up to "Style and themes" and will continue this later. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Cumulative adjustments: [8] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:44, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • @Vanamonde93: Just my opinion, but I think a declaration indicates to the FAR co-ords that the major contributors in fixing the article feel that the FAR is ready to be closed (and the editors don't plan on making further major changes). Z1720 (talk) 03:36, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Keep, then, in that spirit. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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