The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 21:45, 14 April 2009 [1].

List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford: Mathematics, medicine and science[edit]

Nominator(s): Bencherlite ^Talk

Featured list candidates/List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford: Mathematics, medicine and science/archive1

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Another spin-off from List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford (which, with over 500 names before I started splitting the list into sections, had got too big to handle). As usual, it contains all the names in these fields from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Dictionary of Welsh Biography, obituaries in The Times and people who had articles here anyway. Bencherlite ^Talk 10:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco
Review by Truco (talk · contribs) Lead The college still has strong links with Wales, and about 15% of students are Welsh. -- Wales should be linked before this sentence as Welsh Done. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] About 100 undergraduates enter the college each year and there are about 130 graduate students at the College at any one time. -- The last part of the sentence after and is unclear to me, needs rewording Reworded to "About 100 undergraduates and 60 to 70 post-graduates are admitted to the college each year". Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Mathematicians to have studied at Jesus College include Nigel Hitchin (Savilian Professor of Geometry at Oxford since 1997), the Canadian Jonathan Borwein and Jim Mauldon (who taught at Oxford before moving to the United States to teach at Amherst College, Massachusetts). -- Canadian should be plural No it shouldn't, as Mauldon wasn't Canadian (it needed a comma, didn't it?!); reworded for clarity to "the Canadian Jonathan Borwein (who was a Rhodes Scholar), and Jim Mauldon (who taught...". Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] David E. Evans is Professor of Mathematics at Cardiff University, and H. W. Lloyd Tanner was Professor of Mathematics and Astronomy at one of its predecessor institutions, the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire. -- Is it proper not to have the before Professor of ____? Yes it is acceptable British English usage. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Other physicists who are Old Members of the college include Michael Woolfson (a former Professor of Physics at the University of York) and Edward Hinds (whose work on ultra-cold matter won him the Rumford Medal of the Royal Society in 2008). -- Why is Old Members capitalized? Because the college consistently capitalises it. See also this related FLC discussion, where User:Eustress raised the same point. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] The lead should state a bit more, as to who were the first and most recent alumni of the college under these fields, and as to which field has produced more graduates. Maybe the first part is overkill, but the last part about which field has produced the most is substantial IMO. Disagree, I'm afraid. I can't say who the first or most recent notable alumni in each field was, because the list can never be guaranteed to be complete (which is not the same thing as being comprehensive). Nor can I say which field has produced the most graduates, since this would be pure guesswork on my part; the college sources don't say how many have graduated overall in any particular subject. In fact, such figures would be misleading in that, for many years, there was no division of BA subjects and even when Natural Science was introduced, this initially covered all the sciences rather than there being separate degrees such as BA (Physics), BA (Chemistry), BA (Biology) - that only happened later. (And, yes, Oxford historically has awarded BAs for science degrees, with the BSc being a now-defunct postgraduate degree, but that's more off-topic!) Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Key after name -- is unnecessary since that's only where they are used removed. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Tables I don't know but the question mark entries when sorted under the G column should sort at the top and bottom of the lists. That's deliberate: on each of the lists (some already featured) in this series, you will see this: "? – Year unknown; an approximate year is used for table-sorting purposes." It helps with the utility of the list. User:The Rambling Man and I had a discussion about this last week; see this related FLC. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Ah I see, okay, but how come the reader can't know the approximate year used? --Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Because that would be original research, alas... Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] References Since some of the acronyms aren't spelled out in the articles, they need to be spelled out here, like the WBO. Also, why is this in italics? As are others.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 01:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] If you look just above the references, you'll see a list of works used, including "Welsh Biography Online. The Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion of London and the National Library of Wales. 2007. http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/index.html. Cited in references as: WBO". WBO is in italics in every reference because it is the work that is being cited and the "work=" parameter in ((cite web)) and similar templates is automatically italicised. The issue of spelling the abbreviations out in full was raised at this related FLC by User:Dabomb87, and my explanation seems to have satisfied him as the point was not pursued further! Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Oh okay. No need to get angry. --Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Sorry, wasn't meaning to sound angry. Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Thanks for your helpful review. Some changes made in response to your suggestions, others not for reasons explained. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] So you are stating you can't do it becase the list is incomplete? If not, you can just count how many there are in each category, its not OR.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 02:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Can I suggest you read WP:FL? again? The list doesn't have to be complete, since alumni lists can never be complete (except in narrow cases such as e.g. a list of astronauts to attend a military academy), as it is impossible to prove the negative that no notable person has been left out. Instead, the list has to be comprehensive - see #3: "Comprehensiveness. It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing a complete set of items where practical, or otherwise at least all of the major items". I therefore demonstrate comprehensiveness by saying that all of the major items are here, by pointing (once again) to the exhaustion of the following sources for suitable names: The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography The Dictionary of Welsh Biography (initially a paper encyclopaedia, now also found at Welsh Biography Online) Obituaries in The Times dating back to 1785 Obituaries in The Telegraph, The Guardian and The Independent for as far back as their free-access archives allow Some other notable alumni found by looking through Who Was Who and Who's Who Any other relevant people in Category:Alumni of Jesus College, Oxford who happened to have articles here anyway. I cannot think of any more sources where I might reasonably be expected to find additional notable people to add to this list, so it is a comprehensive list, in my view, of alumni in this field from over 400 years of the college's existence. Please reconsider your view. Regards, Bencherlite ^Talk 02:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] I never stated that the incompleteness of the article was an issue. Its not, yes I know the FL criteria, and I know that incompleteness is not a issues; where did you get that from in my comment? All I'm saying is that in the lead it should be noted that which field (from known alumni [which is the list]) has produced the most alumni, which is what is in the table. Its fine though.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Err... "So you are stating you can't do it becase the list is incomplete?" made me think that completeness was an issue! Glad to hear that it's not. Personally, I don't think that saying in the lead "The list contains eight physicists and six chemists" (etc) adds to the reader's understanding of the list, but if the consensus is that it would help, I will do so. I've added a paragraph about the college science labs (1907–47), which might also be of interest - unfortunately the article doesn't go quite as far as saying "that's why the college produced so many leading scientists in this period... Thanks, Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco

Review by Truco (talk · contribs)

Lead

The college still has strong links with Wales, and about 15% of students are Welsh. -- Wales should be linked before this sentence as Welsh

Done. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About 100 undergraduates enter the college each year and there are about 130 graduate students at the College at any one time. -- The last part of the sentence after and is unclear to me, needs rewording

Reworded to "About 100 undergraduates and 60 to 70 post-graduates are admitted to the college each year". Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mathematicians to have studied at Jesus College include Nigel Hitchin (Savilian Professor of Geometry at Oxford since 1997), the Canadian Jonathan Borwein and Jim Mauldon (who taught at Oxford before moving to the United States to teach at Amherst College, Massachusetts). -- Canadian should be plural

No it shouldn't, as Mauldon wasn't Canadian (it needed a comma, didn't it?!); reworded for clarity to "the Canadian Jonathan Borwein (who was a Rhodes Scholar), and Jim Mauldon (who taught...". Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

David E. Evans is Professor of Mathematics at Cardiff University, and H. W. Lloyd Tanner was Professor of Mathematics and Astronomy at one of its predecessor institutions, the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire. -- Is it proper not to have the before Professor of ____?

Yes it is acceptable British English usage. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other physicists who are Old Members of the college include Michael Woolfson (a former Professor of Physics at the University of York) and Edward Hinds (whose work on ultra-cold matter won him the Rumford Medal of the Royal Society in 2008). -- Why is Old Members capitalized?

Because the college consistently capitalises it. See also this related FLC discussion, where User:Eustress raised the same point. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lead should state a bit more, as to who were the first and most recent alumni of the college under these fields, and as to which field has produced more graduates. Maybe the first part is overkill, but the last part about which field has produced the most is substantial IMO.

Disagree, I'm afraid. I can't say who the first or most recent notable alumni in each field was, because the list can never be guaranteed to be complete (which is not the same thing as being comprehensive). Nor can I say which field has produced the most graduates, since this would be pure guesswork on my part; the college sources don't say how many have graduated overall in any particular subject. In fact, such figures would be misleading in that, for many years, there was no division of BA subjects and even when Natural Science was introduced, this initially covered all the sciences rather than there being separate degrees such as BA (Physics), BA (Chemistry), BA (Biology) - that only happened later. (And, yes, Oxford historically has awarded BAs for science degrees, with the BSc being a now-defunct postgraduate degree, but that's more off-topic!) Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Key

after name -- is unnecessary since that's only where they are used

removed. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tables

I don't know but the question mark entries when sorted under the G column should sort at the top and bottom of the lists.

That's deliberate: on each of the lists (some already featured) in this series, you will see this: "? – Year unknown; an approximate year is used for table-sorting purposes." It helps with the utility of the list. User:The Rambling Man and I had a discussion about this last week; see this related FLC. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see, okay, but how come the reader can't know the approximate year used? --Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because that would be original research, alas... Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

Since some of the acronyms aren't spelled out in the articles, they need to be spelled out here, like the WBO. Also, why is this in italics? As are others.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 01:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you look just above the references, you'll see a list of works used, including "Welsh Biography Online. The Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion of London and the National Library of Wales. 2007. http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/index.html. Cited in references as: WBO". WBO is in italics in every reference because it is the work that is being cited and the "work=" parameter in ((cite web)) and similar templates is automatically italicised. The issue of spelling the abbreviations out in full was raised at this related FLC by User:Dabomb87, and my explanation seems to have satisfied him as the point was not pursued further! Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh okay. No need to get angry. --Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, wasn't meaning to sound angry. Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your helpful review. Some changes made in response to your suggestions, others not for reasons explained. Bencherlite ^Talk 01:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you are stating you can't do it becase the list is incomplete? If not, you can just count how many there are in each category, its not OR.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 02:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can I suggest you read WP:FL? again? The list doesn't have to be complete, since alumni lists can never be complete (except in narrow cases such as e.g. a list of astronauts to attend a military academy), as it is impossible to prove the negative that no notable person has been left out. Instead, the list has to be comprehensive - see #3: "Comprehensiveness. It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing a complete set of items where practical, or otherwise at least all of the major items". I therefore demonstrate comprehensiveness by saying that all of the major items are here, by pointing (once again) to the exhaustion of the following sources for suitable names:

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
The Dictionary of Welsh Biography (initially a paper encyclopaedia, now also found at Welsh Biography Online)
Obituaries in The Times dating back to 1785
Obituaries in The Telegraph, The Guardian and The Independent for as far back as their free-access archives allow
Some other notable alumni found by looking through Who Was Who and Who's Who
Any other relevant people in Category:Alumni of Jesus College, Oxford who happened to have articles here anyway.

I cannot think of any more sources where I might reasonably be expected to find additional notable people to add to this list, so it is a comprehensive list, in my view, of alumni in this field from over 400 years of the college's existence. Please reconsider your view. Regards, Bencherlite ^Talk 02:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never stated that the incompleteness of the article was an issue. Its not, yes I know the FL criteria, and I know that incompleteness is not a issues; where did you get that from in my comment? All I'm saying is that in the lead it should be noted that which field (from known alumni [which is the list]) has produced the most alumni, which is what is in the table. Its fine though.--Best, ₮RU CӨ 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Err... "So you are stating you can't do it becase the list is incomplete?" made me think that completeness was an issue! Glad to hear that it's not. Personally, I don't think that saying in the lead "The list contains eight physicists and six chemists" (etc) adds to the reader's understanding of the list, but if the consensus is that it would help, I will do so. I've added a paragraph about the college science labs (1907–47), which might also be of interest - unfortunately the article doesn't go quite as far as saying "that's why the college produced so many leading scientists in this period... Thanks, Bencherlite ^Talk 21:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Previous issues resolved; article now meets WP:WIAFL. Great work.--Best, TRU CO 21:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:19, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) "Mathematicians to have studied at Jesus College" Stronger wording: "Mathematicians who have studied at Jesus College" "at Amherst College, Massachusetts" The comma makes seems as if this were a city-state phrase, try "at Amherst College in Massachusetts" "first publication cross-referencing"-->first publication to cross-reference "went on to design the world's first wearable hearing aid"-->designed the world's first wearable hearing aid "The laboratories led to scientific research and tuition (particularly in chemistry) becoming an important part of the college's academic life." The noun + gerund (-ing) construction is ungrammatical, see these exercises on how to address this issue. "led to 17 students joining " Another example of the awkward noun + -ing. You can fix this by making the noun a possesive: "led to 17 students' joining " "The laboratories became unnecessary when the university began to provide centralised facilities for students; they were closed in 1947." Ambiguous, what was closed, the labs or the facilities? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply] Thanks, all addressed. Bencherlite ^Talk 06:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

"Mathematicians to have studied at Jesus College" Stronger wording: "Mathematicians who have studied at Jesus College"
"at Amherst College, Massachusetts" The comma makes seems as if this were a city-state phrase, try "at Amherst College in Massachusetts"
"first publication cross-referencing"-->first publication to cross-reference
"went on to design the world's first wearable hearing aid"-->designed the world's first wearable hearing aid
"The laboratories led to scientific research and tuition (particularly in chemistry) becoming an important part of the college's academic life." The noun + gerund (-ing) construction is ungrammatical, see these exercises on how to address this issue.
"led to 17 students joining " Another example of the awkward noun + -ing. You can fix this by making the noun a possesive: "led to 17 students' joining "
"The laboratories became unnecessary when the university began to provide centralised facilities for students; they were closed in 1947." Ambiguous, what was closed, the labs or the facilities? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, all addressed. Bencherlite ^Talk 06:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments ahh, Bencherlite, my dark blue friend... find hereinwithbelow some choice comments which should assist you on your path...
- I've probably read it half a dozen times but since when did the Queen found an Oxbridge college at the request of a "mere" clergyman?
  - Added that he was Treasurer of St David's Cathedral, no "mere"-ness about him. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "about" is used twice in really quick succession leading to inelegant prose.
  - Elegantized with an "approximately". Bencherlite ^Talk
- "the Canadian Jonathan Borwein ..." no real need for "the" here.
  - Reworded to "(a former Rhodes Scholar, and a professor at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, Canada)". Bencherlite ^Talk
- Might be worth finding a suitable link for "ultra-cold matter"?
  - It's all Greek to me, but looking at details of his research on his website gave me the idea of linking to Bose–Einstein condensate, whatever that is... Bencherlite ^Talk
- "an approximate year is used for table-sorting purposes." has a full stop, none of the other abbreviation explanations do...
  - Turned into a sentence fragment and full stop surgically extracted without anaesthetic. Bencherlite ^Talk
- No need to relink Bachelor of Arts in the para under the Degree abbreviations section.
  - ~~[[]]~~ Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Music had been available as a specialist subject..." what does that mean? Sounds like something out of Mastermind to me...
  - How about "Music had been taught as a specialist subject, rather than being part of the BA course, before these changes"? Bencherlite ^Talk
- Re: David E. Evans, his dash messes up the sorting on M here.
  - Ahh, no. His M date is 1972, as the note says, so I've put that as a hidden sortable date; it then sorts at the bottom, in chronological order. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "The first Junior Research..." only one to start with "The..."
  - Sentence fragment structure inverted to avoid this. Bencherlite ^Talk
- You have no images of the medical practitioners. This makes the table expand across to fill the page. Looks odd to me.
  - Added photos from Commons of relevant buildings to the three sections without photos of people. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Mixtures of ?, DNG and numbers also messes up sorting on "Biologists and other scientists" table.
  - Added a hidden sortable date for Lhuyd so his DNG is in chronological order at the top; the other "?"s are correctly at the bottom, chronologically. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "BSc (gas kinetics research)" was that the official name of his degree?
  - Don't forget that the BSc (no longer awarded) was a postgrad degree, not a first degree. The key to the table does say that the subject studied is included where known; I've removed the word "research", however, as superfluous. Bencherlite ^Talk
That's all I have. Hope it helps... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- ahh, The Rambling Man, my light blue nemesis, I've been expecting you... Thank you for your review. Hope my changes are in the right directions. As a free gift, have Derek Long, the latest addition to the list: I noticed that the piece in the Jesus College Record about the science labs that I used for the third para of the lead was written by an Emeritus Prof, who turned out to be worth an article of his own. Bencherlite ^Talk 07:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.