The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:31, 28 May 2018 (UTC) [1].Reply[reply]

Timeline of Scottish football[edit]

Timeline of Scottish football (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): ShugSty (talk) 16:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because, with the assistance of several editors, it is now a concise and informative list of notable events in the history of Scottish football, and is fully and appropriately referenced. ShugSty (talk) 16:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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The most obvious thing that jumps out at me is that the list is in reverse chronological order. There is no way that a "timeline" should have the earliest events at the end. You wouldn't expect to see a timeline of the history of the universe which ended with the Big Bang........... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yep - that seems reasonable. Done! ShugSty (talk) 19:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"This is a timeline of Scottish football which contains notable football-related events that have occurred both on and off the field from the mid 1800s up to the present time." - sentences like this in list leads have been deprecated for many years, remove it and bulk up the rest of the lead a bit. Also, there's not a single image in the article - surely there are some relevant ones that could be added....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Still waiting for the first part of the above to be addressed.
I've now made a start on this, with a bit of spiel about the football clubs. I'm a bit unsure about how best to progress as I can't find a similar article for pointers (or to rip off :) ). I'll continue to do as best as I can over then next few days though. (ShugSty 16/3/18)
I've now come up with some paragraphs for the lead ShugSty (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I've also noticed that, while almost all the entries are written in the present tense, there are a handful such as "Motherwell captain Phil O'Donnell, 35, collapsed on the pitch" which are not - make sure all are consistent..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've had a look through and made some amendments; hopefully I've now corrected all such instances of this. (ShugSty 16/3/18)
"The crowd of 122,714 that watched Rangers win over Celtic in the 1973 Scottish Cup Final is the last six-figure attendance at any match in Britain" - this is not true, the official attendance figure for the FA Cup final was 100,000 right up to 1985 -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ah! Having re-read the the source, it does actually says "100,000 +", so I'll rephrase accordingly. Thanks. ShugSty (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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I think I've addressed all the points you raised now. ShugSty (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Whoops, sorry, never came back: Support. --Golbez (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:30, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comments initial pass:
  • "first ever rules of Association Football" no need to capitalise association football. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "early pioneers of the game throughout the UK" this kind of claim needs a ref. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • You link London but not Glasgow, be consistent one way or the other. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "This is a timeline of Scottish football ..." I know you aren't opening the lead with this, but it's still a little odd to see this in this format. It could be that you could start the article with "The timeline of Scottish football started in .... with ...." or similar? Removed "timeline" wording and added more text to lead (ShugSty 17/4/18)
  • "The first documented club in the world dedicated to football" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "established club Queen's Park are established.[4]" repetitive use of "established". Rephrased (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "England and Scotland" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • A shedload of overlinking going on, e.g. Queen's Park is linked four times in the 1870s section alone. Sorted. (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • Image captions which are complete sentences need a full stop. Done (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • " first international" is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "Dr. John Smith becomes the first player to score a hat-trick in a Scottish Cup Final, netting all three of Queen's Park's goals in a 3–1 win over Dumbarton.[11]" worth pointing out that this final was a replay after the first match finished 2-1 but null due to a protest from Dumbarton. Done (ShugSty 17/4/18)
  • "(Ireland before the late 1970s" Ireland is piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "during a British Home Championship match between Scotland and England.[31]" BHC piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "The damage caused at Ibrox Park by the 1902 disaster, which caused the deaths of 25 people." 2 x caused. And no need for full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • World War I or First World War? Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • Same for II & Second. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • " inaugural European Cup Winners' Cup" piped to a redirect. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • I won't note any more but there are lots of these. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • Bremner caption needs no full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • " the following year's World Cup in Argentina" not the right World Cup link. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)
  • "Scotland (in blue)..." caption needs no full stop. Sorted (ShugSty 6/4/18)

The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've addressed most of the above, and will try and sort out the outstanding points over the weekend. ShugSty (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ShugSty you still have responded to a few of my comments? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:55, 15 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It would be much easier if you could respond inline and sign your comments rather than your bold comments? The Rambling Man (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think I've addressed all the points raised now. The lead paragraphs may need some more tweaking though. ShugSty (talk) 14:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Review by PresN[edit]

Giving this some attention. As an aside, like TRM noted above, the use of bold comments instead of plain text+signatures, along with the floating horizontal lines instead of headings or regular indents makes this nomination really hard to read.

Not watchlisting, please ping. --PresN 18:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alright, my only remaining concern is the inclusion criteria arbitrariness/not, but as sports lists aren't my area I'm going to take that one on faith a bit, as I see other sports editors above without concerns. Support. --PresN 17:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment sorry to blow a hole here, but the lead is huge, five paras, and in contravention of WP:LEAD. We should have a couple of paras in the lead, and then probably a "History" section to encompass all the detail. No content really needs to change, just the structure. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 21:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Source review – I won't call these comments holes, but there are potholes that need fixing before this becomes an FL.
  • Ref 19 (Andy Mitchell) book is by CreateSpace, a self-publishing company. What makes this a reliable source? It seems like the two facts this supports should be supportable by better references than this anyway. Even if it was reliable (which I doubt), it would need page numbers. New sources used ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • What makes European Cup History (refs 70, 82, and 88) reliable? Seriously??? ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Yes, I'm seriously asking the question. Is there some established company that publishes the site? Does it have authors who are published elsewhere? I didn't find any such evidence that would prove reliability when I looked at the page, but I'm not as familiar with soccer/football sites and might have missed something. Also, current ref 79 is to this site as well. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • It's a fair question. It looks like a self-published website with no guide to its veracity or any kind of editorial control. Has it been used or referenced from other actual WP:RS? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Sources replaced ShugSty (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • I still see one usage of it in current ref 83 (the number probably changed since I first commented). That looks like the last remaining issue in this source review. Let's get this one taken care of too, and this source review can be considered a pass. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 67 is to Knoji, a community-sourced site. I highly doubt this one could be considered reliable for much. Source replaced ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Minor formatting comment, but IFAB in ref 14 should probably be spelled out. I assume it's short for International Football Association Board, but don't know for sure. Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The all caps in "TEN" in the title of ref 84 should be taken out. Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The publisher of ref 124 should also be more fully spelled out. It appears to be Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC? Done ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 137 could use a page number for the book. I'd tell you what it is, but Google Books unfortunately isn't offering me a free preview of this one. Google link works fine for me - maybe try a different browser ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • It's probably from you being in the U.K. Sometimes Google Books will have different previews for people in different zones. This means that I can have access to a preview in the U.S. that you can't see and vice versa. That's likely what is happening here. All the more reason to provide page numbers for verifiability. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • No page numbers to hand, but's it's an appendix near the end of the book, so I've added that into the reference ShugSty (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Spot-checks of refs 94, 101, 103, 114, and 155 show two issues. First, ref 101 and the article both use the phrase "unprecedented success". Since the article doesn't put that in quotation marks, I'm uncomfortable with it. Second, ref 103 doesn't say that the 1982 U18 win was Scotland's only major international title. It supports the claim that it was their first title in European competition, but nothing further than that.
    • link 101 (now 102) - "uncomfortable", but it's not a controversial/ contentious point nor particularly "peacocky" ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I'm concerned because the wording is seemingly copied from the source. I'd expect to see quotation marks in such a case. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • 1982 U18 win - added another source to confirm it as being Scotland's only major title ShugSty (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On the positive side, no links show up as dead on the link-checker tool. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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