Harold Davidson

This peer review discussion has been closed.

In the pantheon of naughty vicars the Revd Harold Davidson, rector of Stiffkey with Morston 1906–32, holds a high place. His odd interpretation of his duties as a clerk in Holy Orders, not to mention his obsession with teenage girls, got him into trouble with his bishop who, embarrassed and offended by Harold's activities, finally threw the book at him and kicked him out of the Church. Harold campaigned tirelessly for reinstatement, using all sorts of stunts – fasting in a barrel, being roasted in pit while being prodded with pitchforks, and preaching in a den of lions. Unfortunately, one lion got bored and attacked the ex-rector with fatal consequences. It's a wonderful story, part hilarious, part tragic, part pathos, and I hope that reviewers will enjoy reading it. Brianboulton (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dr. Blofeld

Hehe, yes indeed, a "naughty vicar"! I was beginning to wonder if "Stiffkey" was a double entendre for naughty activities involving the church organ and his female "guests"! I'm beginning a read through, will post as I go along:

Family
  • It's an accepted abbreviation for "Reverend", more so than the commonly used "Rev.", but I agree it looks odd in the text so I've made the change. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well. he's a major figure in the development of English education, but I have reworded. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Belligerent" would not be right (too aggressive). "Pugnacious when necessary" seems more appropriate, though I have adopted your wording for the latter part of the sentence. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sort of indicated the kind of school it was – but I agree it's rather superfluous, and have deleted this. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Theatre
Rector, early years
Rector, WWI
  • I tend not to link countries or major cities. "Middle East" is a slightly amorphous area, so a link might be helpful to some readers, but if you think it's overlinking I'll remove it. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I'd delink Middle East then, I think large regions are more generic. I'd be more inclined to link smaller districts/cities/islands than large regions myself anyway.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rector, prostitutes
  • Used "penniless before", but oherwise tweaked as you suggest. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not a fan of "...ing" connectors, but I have reworded to avoid excessive commas. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Downfall, complaints
  • I think (perhaps Tim will bear me out) that modern usage tends only to capitalise ranks when a name is attached, thus "Major Hamond" but otherwise "the major". Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again I don't like the "...ing" (and I'm unsure of the grammar), so I have rewritten the sentence. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine, changes you've made are good.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Downfall, court hearing
  • Thanks. I find that I misrecorded the date when I uploaded the image. The date was 28 March 1932. I have amended the cation, text and image description. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for double checking on that one, excellent.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Downfall, verdict
  • I don't think the paragraphs to which you refer are not neutral in tone. There is little positive to be said about the ways in which Davidson chose to demean himself, and my summary is entirely consistent with the sources. As to The Rector of Stiffkey: His Life and Trial, this is a self-published pamphlet by a family member, written to advertise Davidson's innocence. It does not meet the FA criteria for a high-quality source. In his scholarly biography, Jonathan Tucker lists the pamphlet in his bibliography. Though he makes little direct reference to the pamphlet, he was no doubt aware of its contents in giving his considered view that (a) the case was mishandled by the court and by the defence and (b) Davidson was irresponsible and foolish, but not immoral. I have reorganised and slightly strengthened my summary, to ensure that this judicial viewpoint is properly represented. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it was an intense period of his life after all, but it did capture my attention how negative that period seems to be. Poor chap and to meet his demise that way! ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aftermath and appraisal
  • Well OK, but I'm not sure that all our readers are aware of the dates of the Second worls war, which ended 68 years ago. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, as usual, a mighty fine interesting article, which with some polishing I can see becoming a featured article in the not too distant future. Hope my suggestions are useful to you Brian.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for these thoughtful and helpful comments. Very largely I have followed your suggestions; where not I have explained why. The article is undoubtedly better for your input. Brianboulton (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to be of service and good luck with taking it all of the way. Feel free to contact me whenever you want input, the volcano roof is open, just watch out for the ninjas..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Schro

A couple of "dittos" from above: the abbreviated Reverend looked odd to me too, as does linking both world wars, perhaps? Aside form those, this is very good indeed—as always—and is almost an unbelievable tale, so bizarre are many of the ingredients (especially when you can add the Carry on name of Stiffkey into proceedings: I have an image of Sid James at work here! To then come across Vice-admiral Tupper just reinforces it all!) I've made a couple of tweaks here and there: please feel free to revert anything you want to. A couple of other bits:

Infobox
Lead
  • It was his Church office. I think this is how he is generally known to posterity, rather than as Harold Davidson. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Theatre, Oxford

That's all I've got. Another great piece of work: could you ping me when it gets to FAC? - SchroCat (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • A minor addition: I see the Vice-admiral caps have been changed: I always thought that Vice-admiral was the correct format, but I have asked one of the milhist people if they could provide something definitive for us. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for these comments (no ellipsis faults this time) Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

    • You are right (other reputable dictionaries confirm this). I have decapitalised, though I fear there will be howls of wrath from the Anglican community as a result, and I hope you'll back me up. Brianboulton (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've gone for "and" – I'm over-fond of semicolons
    • Well researched, but since none of my sources mention it, and it's peripheral information, I'll leave it out.Brianboulton (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Researched? I knew! That was from the Silvers-Riley Victorian Theatre production line. I concur about not mentioning the author, though.Tim riley (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "failed to win" is better. A "scholarship" enables study by providing a financial grant, so I think my wording is OK. Brianboulton (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't much like "for" or "by", but what about "with"?
    • That surprises me; I've not seen it hyphenated elsewhere. I'd prefer to leave it as it is. Brianboulton (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • My dictionary tells me these are alternative spellings, and that neither is gender-specific. I think my usage is OK, & chimes with the source. Brianboulton (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Good. Rather pleased, in fact. I have learned something. Tim riley (talk) 18:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Quoted text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit."

Quoted text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

    • I definitely prefer the format that I have used, in this and other articles, to the other. I have, however, adopted your suggestion to lighten the background colour. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The redlink arises from circumstances outlined by me on the talkpage. I have no intention of writing an article on her, but someone may prepare a stub (as has happened with Tupper). Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Good Heavens! The new Tupper article is by Andrew Gray who is jointly running the Ashton ballet Wikibash at the the Royal Opera House tomorrow, which will, scandalously, require me to get out of bed at 7.00 on a Saturday. I shall seek to extract a promise from Andrew not to write up Ms Harris. Tim riley (talk) 18:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just noticed this - I had wondered about Harris's link as well! I saw Tupper's footnote and on encountering the fascisti could not resist looking him up to see what else there was. Not the most notable of figures, but curious enough, and since I'd got that far I knocked a short article together. I promise nothing on Harris... Andrew Gray (talk) 17:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Blyth says the locals call it "Stewky"; Parris, who I suspect did little of his own research, says "pronounced Stewkey: villagers remain sensitive on this point." Tom Cullen and Jonathan Tucker both aver that locals pronounce the name as spelt; none of these sources refer to "Stookey". If another RS can be found to support this pronunciation, I will gladly add it to the footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • 4 cols is my norm (I even cheekily imposed it on the BB article!). No one has ever suggested to me that this presents viewing difficulties, but if it does, maybe 3 cols? Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot. I admired the skill with which you walked the tightrope throughout the article. As SchroCat says, above, there could all too easily be a touch of the Carry Ons about it. You have not missed the comic side of the story, but nor have you missed its sad side. – Tim riley (talk) 10:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim for these comments which show your usual attachment to esoteric detail (and all the better for that). Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ruhrfisch

  • Unfortunatetly, the sources that show this picture give no information beyond that it was taken on Easter Day 1932. Your conjecture that he wore his medals to give a good impression is quite likely correct, but is not supported, so must remain as conjecture. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have re-sized the image to better comply with fair use policies, and also adjusted the contrast. Hopefully it looks better - if not, let me know and I will revert the adjustment and upload that version. Could the fact that he is wearing medals from his military service be added to the image description? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually had the date wrong; it was 28 March 1932, the day before the trial started (!) The photo was taken by an unnamed press photographer, in what Davidson believed was a set-up. This was supposedly a publicity photograph to help Estelle Douglas to start a theatrical career; as the article says, Davidson claimed he had no idea she was naked under the shawl, or that the back of her body was exposed. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also resized and adjusted this image (took two tries as I got a moire pattern on Wikipedia that I did not see on my monitor). Again please let me know if looks OK in the article (as I have to delete the other versions). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is nothing in the sources to support the treading on tail story. The young lion tamer Irene Somner gives quite a detailed account of the mauling, and doesn't mention it. The DYK is eight years old, from a time when I suspect standards of verification were rather lax; perhaps the story came from some inferior source, or was a made-up bit of detail. I can't really incorporate negative information into the article, so I suggest we allow sleeping dogs (or lions) to lie. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read the version from 2008 and there were no (zero) refs for the treading on the lion's tale story. Would it be worth adding a note to the article's talk page, right under the DYK banner? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For myself I'd prefer not to do it – seems like unnecessary drawing of attention to a relatively minor lapse of detail. The point of the DYK, I imagine, was that Davidson was killed by a lion, rather than that he trod on it tail. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There again, neither of Davidson's biographers mention this. Tucker says that the family "simply could not afford to move the body to Stiffkey and were considering having him interred in Skegness". But a friendly haulage contractor offered to transport the body to Stiffkey at no cost. Nothing about the family tomb at Sholing. The story could possibly have some truth in it, but the information is uncited in the Stiffkey article; I have added a citation tag. If a reliable source can be found, this small detail could be added to the Davidson article. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will try to review it for real. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:01, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these comments. Further observation will be welcome if/when you have the time; the PR will be open for at least another week. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here are my comments on the article - I did not find much to comment on, but here are my nitpicks. I added ha for acres.

Lead
Theatre, Oxford and ordination
  • I have added the date of the "rescue", and have included that he was 28 when ordained in 1903. I think that will probably do. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Complaints and investigations
  • It is not clear from the sources how the press first got hold of the story; possibly it was through Davidson himself. I have added this possibility to the text, with a reference. I will add an explanatory footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image of Pollock dates from 1902, long before he was Bishop of Norwich, when he was the relatively youthful headmaster of Wellington College. It's also a large and awkward-shaped image. The most relevant placement for it would be in the "Complaints and investigations" section, in place of the quote box to avoid image congestion. Personally I think the quoted text is more germane than a picture of the youthful Pollock. However, if the result of the discussion I have instigated at the foot of this review should result in a decision to omit the Davidson-Douglas photo, then I will bring back the bishop. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably not; this arises from an issue discussed on the article's talkpage, but I think on balance her individual notability would be insufficient to sustain a WP article, so I'll remove the link. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Parris does not number his chapters, so I've given the page numbers instead. Brianboulton (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this helps. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

I have not that much to say, which given the travails you are under at Stevens, is almost regrettable. Still, I fear not that it will be considered a Friday afternoon (well, night) job, as I see the worthy people who have gone before me.

Lede
  • Davidson strongly protested his innocence and to raise funds for his reinstatement campaign he exhibited himself in a barrel on the Blackpool seafront." I advise a comma someplace.
  • "while later commentators generally accept that although he was often foolish and eccentric in his behaviour" The problem is, the "foolish and eccentric" comes from a contemporary leading article. It's a rather kind summation.
    • Sorry, I'm not clear what, if anything, you are suggesting I should do. Brianboulton (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You say that LATER commentators said that. Yet the phrase is taken from a contemporary commentator, from the 1930s. And I guess I'm hinting that your thumbnail summary of the view of Davidson is a bit on the favorable end, and I felt the quotes you proffered at the end were a bit more mixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:06, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I actually say that later commentators accept that he was foolish and eccentric, not that they said it. The exact words are indeed those of the Church Times report of 1932, but I think they are a generally fair summation of more recent opinion as expressed in the main text, and I would prefer not to change the wording. Brianboulton (talk) 23:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Theatre
  • Either masonic should be capitalized, or made lower case in Stevens, or we are truly divided by our common language.
    • Well, my understanding is that in current British English usage the use of initial capitals in minimised. According to my dictionaries, the noun "Mason" (meaning a Freemason) is capitalised to distinguish him from a "mason" (meaning a stonecarver). The adjective "masonic" does not carry a capital. I will ask Tim, who is a guru on such matters, to pronounce judgement on this; of course, American usage may be quite different and I see no reason why we need to harmonise the usage. Brianboulton (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The OED admits both capitalised and non-capitalised for the word in this sense, but favours the capped version ("... Usu. in form Mason = Freemason") which preponderates in its list of nine examples by six Masons to three masons. I think the caps have it. Tim riley (talk) 13:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • – and I had a £1 bet that you would judge in my favour! Oh, the way of the scholar is hard. (Proverbs 13:15, modified) Brianboulton (talk) 17:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume he helped the girl on the Embankment, but possibly the reader should not have to.
You don't say whether he did anything to help the girl on the Embankment. I think the reader would be grateful for a brief "rest of the story". Saying he gave her money or found her a room or job would be sufficient.
Have added a line. Brianboulton (talk) 23:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rector
  • "Davidson was an acquaintance" A sentence which should be divided.
  • Is Barbara Harris truly deserving of a redlink? Has she notability not derived from the Stiffkey case?
    • I've redlinked it because another editor has found a source, which I do not consider reliable, that indicates that Harris married a well-known artist, was a friend of Dylan Thomas, and led a generally Bohemian life until 2003. See the talkpage for details, and my doubts. Should this be confirmed, then I think Barbara would indeed be worth a short article, but I need to be convinced that the details are true. Brianboulton (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it is the back of her body that is unclothed, her front is covered by a shawl." I'm uncertain about the present tense here.
    • I've redrafted this bit, & added a few words to explain why the photo was taken. Brianboulton (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Campaigning
  • "because of his genuine fear of animals" Is genuine really needed?
  • " became disturbed" agitated?
  • Was Hamond at the funeral?
  • Shoutout to Cosmo duly noted.
Bibliography
  • On the two references where you have chapters, the open parens and the letter C clash on my browser. Consider separating with a non-breaking space.

That's all I have. Excellent work. I will confess to never hearing of the reverend.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Small fixes done, otherwise notes as above. Thank you for your comments. I wouldn't expect Davidson to be known much outside our shores, but here he has some status as a minor anti-establishment folk hero. Brianboulton (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've responded to your concerns above.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:06, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments from Cliftonian

Great work here, just a few quick suggestions from me. Feel free to implement as you see fit.

  • Well, perhaps, but during his first Blackpool stint, Davidson was still in holy orders, still Rector of Stiffkey, still collecting his tithes and still preaching from time to time, so his "career" was still as a clergyman. He only fully reverted to his earlier vocation after he was defrocked. It's as broad as it is long; I think I'd prefer to leave it as it is. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, fair enough. Cliftonian (talk) 04:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very well done on a thoroughly entertaining read, and I hope these are helpful. Have a great rest of the weekend. Cliftonian (talk) 14:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for these useful observations which, with the exception noted, I have been happy to incorporate into the article. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you found these helpful. Have a pleasant Sunday Cliftonian (talk) 04:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments from Victoria

Lead
Theatre
Early years
  • I have been long convinced that calculated present-day values of amounts from 100+ years ago can be misleading. The information in footnote 3 gives a better indication of the value at that time of Davidson's Stiffkey stipend. Brianboulton (talk) 10:26, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a good point, which I can't see that any of the main sources have mentioned. Looking at the map, I'd say the distance is about 130 miles. I'll dig around and see if I can get a more accurate figure from a reliable source. Brianboulton (talk) 10:26, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Prostitutes' Padre"
  • None of the sources elaborate, though they all discount the possibility that the child could have been Davidson's. I think it's just one of those mysteries/coincidences. Brianboulton (talk) 10:26, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Financial problems
Court hearing

These are all nitpicks and this is as far as I got. I've also commented below re the image. Victoria (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image issue

I am asking all peer reviewers if they would kindly comment on the inclusion in the article of File:Davidson with Douglas.jpg. I did not have it in my initial expansion of the article, as I was concerned that the girl in the photograph was a 15-year-old minor. However, all commentators on the Davidson case are agreed that the photograph was a critical factor in the court's decision to convict him of immorality, and I decided that it should go in.

The age factor has not prevented the photgraph from being widely published - it is in all the recent biographical accounts, and indeed forms the cover picture for Cullen's 1975 book. It is also been published on the internet. The question that keeps bothering me, however, is whether the relevance of the image is sufficient to trump the argument of inappropriateness. The image is not there for prurient purposes, but some might think this, or might in any case feel that a photograph of an unclad minor is not acceptable in any circumstances. I would be very grateful if you would add your thoughts on this, here. Brianboulton (talk) 10:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's an extremely valuable photograph and one which is clearly very relevant to the article discussion. Some might dispute the extent to which it is used for "critical commentary", but the mention of the photograph and its importance to the case meets the guidelines for use in my opinion and the article would be worse off without it. A picture is worth a thousand words, in this case 10,000, showing up the naughty vicar!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll admit that the thought crossed my mind too, although only fleetingly. If the girl had been turned around then I'd back it's removal, but showing only the buttocks of the girl, wearing some form of blanket as cover, puts it out of the prurient camp and into the explanatory/educational one. If the image also appears in the reliable print sources, then the lawyers will already have discussed the legality of use and deemed it appropriate. As with Doc's comment, I also think it tells a thousand words. - SchroCat (talk) 11:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per the above. I think standards have changed so much in eighty years that without the image, the reader is whistling in the dark. As to appropriateness, as I said, standards have changed. I think the article needs it, and it will shock no one.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say if the image has already been used prominently in the print sources, and indeed on the front cover of one, there is no reason why we should not also use it. It's already available on the internet anyway. In any case I do not think that the nudity therein is excessive by today's standards and as the Doctor says this photograph in particular is extremely pertinent to the subject and commentary. And as both the Doctor and SchroCat have already said, the Reverend's apparent demeanour in that picture really does say far, far more than any written description could. So for me it's a keep. Cliftonian (talk) 11:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this more than meets FAIR USE and should be included in the article. The two fair use images (this and the lead image) show the two views of Davidson presented in his trial. I do find the image disturbing - how could he have not known / seen that she was nearly naked and her whole back and bottom exposed? The photo was obviously a setup - who would use a child (and the daughter of one of his oldest friends) like this? On a technical note, I made the image smaller (about 40% of the original upload) but when I tried to make it smaller still initially (about 33% of the original), there was a bad Moiré pattern. I also briefly considered suggesting cropping the image so not all of the buttocks were shown, but I think the original image is more useful for the article than any cropped version would be. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all who have contributed here. I think the consensus is that, distasteful though it is, the image should remain, and I will leave it in place. If the matter should be raised at FAC I will refer to this discussion. Brianboulton (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]