Lie Kim Hok

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I want to bring this to FA and I'd like to hammer out any remaining issues (particularly grammar).

Thanks,  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt


Lede
  • "and Dutch – he was unable" perhaps "and Dutch, though he was unable …"
  • "after his wife died Lie quit this position." being picky, it could be Van der Linden's wife meant. Perhaps "; Lee quit these positions after his wife died." Positions should be plural. Two periodicals.
  • "and grammar Malajoe Batawi. " Perhaps "Malay grammar". Grammar by itself is not clear.
  • Is it van der Linden or Van der Linden. My understanding on Dutch names is that the "van" is capitalized if there is nothing before it (that is, Hendrik van der Meer, or Dr. van der Meer, but if it's "he went to see Van der Meer", it's capped.) We have plenty of Dutch speakers you could check with.
  • Drmies follows Dutch practice here. Even looking at "Van" with a capital V gives xem a headache. Honestly, I don't know anymore what the US style guides etc. say... Wehwalt may well be right about seeing Van der Meer, though. Drmies (talk) 15:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infobox: I don't think the number of children is what that field is for, it's for naming them.
Early life
  • "schools for Europeans" perhaps "either" before "for".
  • "Lie received his formal education, including the sciences, language, and Christianty" I'd either add an "in" before "the sciences" or else say that the curriculum included these things.
  • "the religion" perhaps "the religious training". I'd say "influenced" rather than "affected".
  • "Lie and his family returned to Bogor in 1866." Yes, but they were there so briefly it's not worth the word "returned". It was not their dwelling place, they were there on a temporary basis before, to have help with the birth. Possibly "moved" or "relocated".
  • "and until his death Lie was unable to speak Chinese." In the lede you say he was unable to understand it. There can be a difference.
  • "When Sierk Coolsma opened a missionary school on 31 May 1869, " In Bogor?
  • "the Sundanese students, mostly Muslim, had transferred to the new school for fear of being converted" to Christianity?
  • "In 1873 Coolsma was tasked to Sumedang " "tasked" is with a project or a job, not to a place. Perhaps "transferred" or "reassigned"?
  • Done.
More in a while.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Teacher
  • "began assisting" assisted
  • Alright
  • "the missionary's printing press" The missionary's van der Linden, right? You have as yet only called him a teacher. Now that it's been mentioned, going back to the previous section, wouldn't this have undermined the school's apparent appeal to those not wishing to come to Jesus?
  • "but followed through under his parent's urgings" Perhaps move "parents" to previous sentence, i.e., "Lie was told by his parents …" Then this can be reduced to :*"but obediently followed through" Or perhaps better "but obeyed".
"their first child; the baby" I'm not sure the semicolon is needed or a good idea, it might be better to bridge with "but" or "though".
  • "Following these deaths Lie sold his school to Oey Kim Hoat and left his position at Zending Press to ensure his family's financial stability" Selling your business and quitting your job does this how, exactly? Apparently it doesn't, judging by "Lie was unable to take care of the child"
  • "Gadok" Link?
  • "Three years later" than 1881 or 1886?
  • "works by other authors and reprinting some of Lie's earlier works;" repetition
  • Judging by Lie's purchases, his books must have sold well. Can that be said?
  • Not in the sources explicitly, but Tio's purple prose (the bit about the bright star below) implies it. We could say his works did well, but no solid figures and I don't think the sources support identifying which ones sold well. Thoughts? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't have any as don't have the sources. In my view there's a slight disconnect, Lie is presented as very poor and then suddenly he's pulling off these major purchases. There needs to be some hint to the reader that Lie is not that poor anymore.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The publishing house was moved to Batavia soon after and, beginning in mid-1886,[c] Lie's publishing house was credited as printer." Hm. Maybe "Beginning in mid-1886, Lie's publishing house (which he had moved to Batavia) was credited as the newspaper's printer."
  • "While busy with the press" This sentence is too long and should be split. You cannot have two semicolons in a sentence.
  • " the following year." This is a little bit loose, because you are actually talking about a time period here, not the year 1887. But it's "He spent the next three years" which really becomes a problem. After 1887 or 1888?
  • "began work" would say "began to work" or "started working" or "began working". "Began work" has a sense of working on a project.
  • It would be good to know what he did at the rice mill. Presumably it wasn't arduous.
  • "Lie was forbidden from leaving the house and his condition steadily declined." At some point, the restriction became superfluous, given that he was dying. I would omit the part about forbidden leaving the house.
Legacy
  • Are the first two sentences really a part of his legacy?
  • "notes that Lie's entry into the press sparked an increase in Chinese presence in the Dutch East Indies," Does this mean he caused additional immigration?
  • " Tio does not record" suggest attaching this to the previous sentence, prefaced with a though.
  • "to lead a troupe of teenaged actors," perhaps "for a troupe of teenage actors".
  • You use "marginalised" twice in the final paragraph. You should make it a bit clearer the relationship between bazaar Malay and low Malay for those of us who know nothing about it.
Added a sentence, hope that helps. Two "marginalised"s in a paragraph of this size doesn't seem to be overkill. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Controversy
  • The word "work" is overused in the first paragraph.
  • "plot elements in both stories are the same, although some elements " delete second elements
  • "found" is used as the verb in two consecutive sentences.
That's about it. Generally quite well done and I'm sure it will do great at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro:

Lead:

  • Lie and his printing press
  • Any suggestions? Perhaps "lines of work"? "Uncertain employment"?
  • To, perhaps?
  • Is received better?

Early life:

  • Feels... odd... to me. Can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it's the lack of continuation between young and "Aged ten".

Teacher and publisher:

  • General school, clarified.10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

More to follow. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm in a pickle here because the sources do not give a sex or name (which could be used to determine the sex). Indonesian does not have male/female pronouns, so that's also useless. I'm very, very, very hesitant to use "it" when speaking about a human. So pronouns are out, unless we use the singular "they" which opens another battlefield. How's this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's how the sources present it. Added a bit of information further up, about how he would create his own poems, but the sources don't mention any formal or non-formal training. He likely borrowed from his time as a magazine editor. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Outlined?

Tiong Hoa Hwe Koan, translations, and death

Legacy

Reworked. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, looking good. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changes looking good. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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