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WikiProject Aircraft talk — Archives
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Hi all. I am totally new to wikipedia and slowly getting the hang of things around. I would like to join this project. Can someone help me out as to how I do this? Please leave an answer on my talk page and if possible, please email answer to stratoflyer@gmail.com . Thanks. --Stratoflyer 20:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a bit of growing need to be able to cross reference airplanes and the airlines that use them/have them ordered. Right now you can go from an airline to an aircraft but not vice versa. I think this need has come up in the 737 article (Example 1,Example 2) Is there something snazzy that can be done with categories on the Airline pages to cross reference back to a category list of "737 Operators"? Its not the most elegant solution, but its a whole lot better than manually gluing it together. It could also be expanded to include pages for "Former 737 Operators" and "737 Orders"... I'm going to also put a notice on the Wikiproject Airline page that this discussion is getting started -- since it really is something that affects both projects.. --Cliffb 05:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
In my yet-to-be-finalised category proposal, many of the things in Category:Aircraft will be finding new homes. There are a few oddballs that I would like to move or kill, listed below. I would like this to be considered as a kind of official proposal, so please comment if you can find the time.
Oh, and let's remove that aweful bloat notice at the top of Category:Aircraft. Ingoolemo talk 05:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Need Help on Boeing 747 LCFYousaf465
I dont know why we have this article. This is not a Boeing airplane. This is not a new variant or model. These are used planes converted in Taiwan to ship parts. Only 3 will be made. No airline will ever own or operate them. However, I will update the article and expand it. --Bangabalunga 19:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Being a newb, I’ve been reading a variety of aircraft articles to get a feel for content and style, and I’ve noticed a tendency for sections to be added – explicitly or not – about “Problems” … which seem to be a magnet for POV debates. “Problems” is rather a vague and overly broad word and a poor choice for a section title when there are two basic kinds of “problems” being addressed, only one of which I feel is really pertinent to address at length.
That pertinent category would include those “Technical Challenges and Issues” which are endemic to development of very complicated modern weapon systems. Requirements changes or funding restrictions can stretch schedules and increase costs; testing can reveal things that need to fixed, delaying service entry; a key technology might not mature as rapidly as expected; an important vendor may discontinue a needed product or service; millions of lines of software code may prove troublesome to debug; etc. These all exist to some extent in every weapon system development program, and my recommendation is that perhaps only those which are most noteworthy to a particular program should be mentioned – and that in the development history section.
The other kind of issue deals with criticisms over “intangibles” such as whether or not they fit a particular “design philosophy” (e.g., the “Lightweight Fighter Mafia”), the appropriateness of that design philosophy (like whether or not “maneuverability” is the paramount performance criteria), or the degree to which it satisfied the objectives of its political advocates (cf. the McNamara POV debate in the F-14 article discussion). My recommendation is that these receive no more than a passing reference in an article about a given aircraft, but seed that reference with a link to another article where it is more fully and appropriately dealt with. (Examples: Fighter mafia, Robert McNamara, Iron triangle, Aerial warfare.) --Askari Mark | Talk 03:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I came across the ((Airreg)) template, which can provide autolinks to the FAA N-Number (or other national) registries. It also has built-in the option of linking to airdisaster.com, which seems to overdo it on advertisements. I left some concerns and suggestions at Template talk:Airreg. Rather than taking unilateral action (the template is used on nearly 100 pages), I would welcome input on the template talk page. --Aude (talk contribs) 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Many of our sources describe the propellers of prop-powered aircraft. I would like to add this option to our specs template. Example:
It would be generated by something along the lines of
((#switch:(({jet or prop?|))} |prop=* '''Powerplant:''' (({number of props|))}× (({engine (prop)|))} (({type of prop|))}, (({power main|))} ((({power alt|))}) each(( #if:(({propellers|))} |driving (({propellers|))} )) ))
Is there support for this, or is it too much bloat? Ingoolemo talk 04:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I have an updated proposal:
((#switch:(({jet or prop?|))} |prop=* '''Powerplant:''' (({number of props|))}× (({engine (prop)|))} (({type of prop|))}, (({power main|))} ((({power alt|))}) each(( #if:(({propellers|))} |* '''Propellers:''' (({propellers|))} (({propeller or rotor?|))}(( #if:(({number of propellers per engine|))} |, (({number of propellers per engine|))} per engine )) )) ))
In my example above, (({propellers))} would be equal to "four-bladed Hamilton Standard". The only options for (({propeller or roter?))} are "propeller" and "rotor". (({number of propellers per engine))} is self-explanatory.
Ingoolemo talk 01:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Some discussion has occurred over the past several days over how to advertise our project better off-site. One way to do it might be to join some web rings, such as the UK aviation web ring. Comments? Ingoolemo talk 23:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
It might be worth clarifying: all mention of our webring membership would appear in the Project namespace; none would be placed in the article namespace—that would be a blatant violation of policy and precedent. Ingoolemo talk 23:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Our "friend" is back, see his recent activity over there. --Denniss 17:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not that expert on these planes but they look very similar. The Arcturus seems to be a subvariant of the Aurora. Do we need separate articles for them ? Need expert option. --Denniss 22:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In a similar vein...I put these two aircraft together, because they are pretty much internally identical - however some texts treat them separately - happy to spilt if there is any strong opinion Winstonwolfe 05:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Center of pressure has been disputed and stagnant for a long time now. Could someone please give it some love? Thanks, Melchoir 04:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
At CAC Boomerang, there was a comparison table comparing its characteristics to other similar fighters. The table, which I removed temporarily, can be found at Talk:CAC Boomerang#Comparison table.
What do y'all think? Is it worthwhile to include that sort of thing at all? If so, where? In each individual article? In a 'comparison tables' article? Ingoolemo talk 01:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The biggest issue is oversimplification. Top speeds and initial climb rates do little to help one understand how two fighters stack against each other, and the important performance figures are largely unavailable. - Emt147 Burninate! 22:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Even in major text books the information is often presented in a non standardised way - one will have range with reserves, the next range with drop tanks, the next a combat radius with stated load. For aircraft of the era of the Boomerang, much data is dubious as production aircraft in service often failed to achieve the figures of specially prepared early machines. Tables are also often produced by a manufacturer who presents only the most favourable comparisons, (though to be fair, the nicely presented figures for the Boomerang only serve to underline its understandable inadequacies). Despite all that, better to have some comparative information than none at all.Winstonwolfe 02:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
These tables, whether in an article about a fighter or an airliner, need to be killed. They're comparing only the basics, and preempting any real discussion of the complexities involved. I've pulled the 787-10 vs A350-900XWB table already (talk about vague and uninformative) and will be removing any others I come across. ericg ✈ 05:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, one form of comparison I did find interesting was comparative performance envelope diagrams - a bit academic as these are not readily available. Winstonwolfe. Incidentally I've just joined the project, and promptly completed templates for most of the articles I've had involvement with (usually New Zealand, or British interwar period, most were stub or start, low/medium importance) - I hope nobody minds. 00:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has decided that all of the 'operators' sections in our articles need to have the countries listed, and not just the air forces, so they went through and replaced something like * Royal Canadian Air Force
with
* [[Canada]] ** [[Royal Canadian Air Force]]
I can certainly see the need for this if the list includes the Fleet Air Arm, RAF, USAF, USMC, and U.S. Navy. But in most of these cases, only one operator was listed. I think most of us are in agreement that in the latter case, the country need not be listed.
I would also like to note that our page content standards call for a list of all squadrons that use the plane in question. In General, when we have a list of squadrons together, the operators list should be removed.
Comments? Ingoolemo talk 16:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
If you may recall, I proposed moving several massive navboxes to the portal namespace some time ago. There was no opposition, so I took care of it. Well, someone decided that the template needed to be recreated, so he created it again.
As far as I'm concerned, if they want a template, let them have it. But I find that such massive navboxes simply don't fit well into the bottom of an article, especially if more than one is added. So can we come to some kind of consensus that our WP:Air/PC should explicitly state that there are to be no navboxes in the footer?
Remember, there are over a hundred members of this project, so it's not fair to the rest of you if we make policy on five support votes because no one else said anything. Ingoolemo talk 17:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Here are two examples of such templates:
RAF strategic bombing during the Second World War | |
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Overviews | |
Leaders | |
Campaigns | |
Operations | |
Aircraft | |
Technology | |
Tactics | |
Units | |
See also |
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ingoolemo (talk • contribs) .
I would reccomend limiting to one navbox per page. --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 19:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
At this point I would like to make some further comments about these templates. Firstly, I absolutely believe that they convey useful information, which is one reason why I proposed moving them to the Portal namespace a month ago. My primary beef with them is that they are simply too large and unwieldy to fit nicely into the footer. Ingoolemo talk 20:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
One more thing: I have two more examples, each much smaller. ((giant aircraft))
Bombers |
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Airliners |
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AEW | |||||||
Topics | |||||||
Accidents and incidents | |||||||
Notable aircraft | |||||||
In media | |||||||
See also: Boeing B-17 family |
Should these be kept in the footer? Ingoolemo talk 07:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, here's another. This looks absolutely awful and doesn't help the article at all, at least in my opinion. Does a reader about a prototype jet reall care about the Honda CR-V? ericg ✈ 20:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, we've established some things. Firstly, all respondents to this discussion oppose the inclusion of "large" navboxes in the footer. Examples of said "large" navboxes are ((RAF WWII Strategic Bombing)), ((British aircraft since WWII)), and ((Honda)). Secondly, no respondents—so far—opposed the inclusion of "small" or "manageable" navboxes.
Well, what can we take from this discussion? When I first began it, I hoped that we could come up with some kind of actionable policy. What would this policy be? No navboxes whose width is greater than w, whose height is greater than h, and whose area is greater than A? I doubt I
Part of the distinction I see between the RAF templates and the smaller ones is that they introduce a very specific topic with many different facets, which is one reason why I maintain that they should be portals rather than navigational templates. Consequently, they group together articles that are only tangentially related to each other, such as the Avro Lancaster and Archibald Sinclair. Thus they are more like clutter than useful information. The same is true of the Lockheed and Honda templates.
So if the RAF templates are bad, are smaller ones less bad, or are some actually beneficial? I would agree with Askari Mark that the B-29 family template is a useful addition to a page, or more specifically that it is more useful than a category or a link to a list. The giant aircraft template, on the other hand, is barely more useful than a category.
And now, finally a proposal for a page content standard:
For an navbox to be included in an aircraft article's footer, it must meet one of the following criteria:
Comments? Ingoolemo talk 23:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
So what you're proposing is:
Just checking that I read you right. Ingoolemo talk 03:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I admit that some of my argument against navboxes is that they are a clunky addition to the footer, and although I concede that the dynamic navbox helps ease those concerns, I still believe that many of the navbox additions are redundant. The dynamic navbox will not make such content less redundant. Ingoolemo talk 04:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I support this proposal completely, though I did make a slight change the reference to B-29 family. Anyone else? Ingoolemo talk 03:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
So you're arguing that inclusion of navboxes should be not just be limited to boxes whose content is different/better than lists and categories; you'd also like to include those whose content is the same as a list or a category, on the grounds that the boxes are more useful in and of themselves than any link could be? Karl Dickman talk 00:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Recently I went to a local airshow and took pictures of a bunch of airplanes. I've been able to identify most of them, but there are a few, mostly World War II-era, that I haven't.
Thanks for any help identifying them. --Carnildo 00:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This isn't strictly aircraft-related (in the sense of relating to a specific make and model article) but I think I'm probably safe in assuming that most participants over here are aviation enthusiasts. There's currently an RfC filed to get some outside input on Comair Flight 5191, specifically whether or not certain facts reported by the media (but as yet unrelated to the crash) should be included in the article. Thanks for any help my fellow aviators can provide, and sorry for the semi-spam. I'll go improve an article or two as penance. :) --chris.lawson 06:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Should the E-767 be listed as a section on the E-3 page (since the E-767 is is a modified 767 with E-3 equipment), or does it deserve its own page?
Musashi1600 06:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
According to the specifications on Boeing's website, the E-767 has the same dimensions as the 767-200 (with the exception of a taller tail), and uses similar engines, although I don't know of any significant internal differences.
Musashi1600 07:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm having a little trouble conveying the importance of the Piper Cub over at the talk page. If someone has links to 'famous aircraft' polls or anything, please chime in (but don't make it an attack! that sometimes happens). ericg ✈ 16:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you can get some useful ideas from Successful aircraft types.Francisco de Almeida 21:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I finally got back to my proposed update of the categorisation scheme, and it's almost ready to be opened for discussion. One thing I want to ask:
It seems to me that AWACS, command and control, and electronic warfare are closely related categories with "only hazy or semantic distinctions" (to use the words of our current WP:Air/C). I would like to rewrite the categorisation to lump them all together into a single category.
Firstly, are there any objections to my proposal, or alternatives (such as merging AWACS and command and control?).
Secondly, what is a good category that encompasses all three missions? I can't think of a name that describes all of them. Ingoolemo talk 03:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
One of my professional duties is long-range forecasting of military aircraft markets and national force structure requirements. As I promised Ingoolemo, here is the categorization groupings typically used in the military aircraft industry. Here's more than you ever wanted to know. ;-)
There are four fundamental roles for military aircraft: combat, combat support (or "special mission"), air mobility, and trainer. The mission categorizations under these roles are:
Combat aircraft: bombers, fighter/attack (or fighters and attack separately), and light ground attack (LGA/COIN).
Combat Support aircraft: strategic reconnaissance (including bomber variants), tactical reconnaissance (usually fighter/attack variants), forward air control (FAC), airborne command posts (ACP), airborne early warning and control (AEW&C, including AWACS), electronic warfare (or "electronic combat"), electronic support measures (ESM), maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), anti-submarine warfare (ASW), search and rescue (SAR, including combat SAR [CSAR]), and weather reconnaissance. MPA and ASW are usually combined as MP/ASW (or just "maritime patrol"). EW (jammers, etc.) and ESM (ELINT, etc.) are often combined as "EW".
Air Mobility aircraft: strategic transports, tactical transports, strategic tankers, tactical tankers, utility transports (a.k.a. "communications" or "liaison"), VIP transports, medevac aircraft, and (crewed) airships. Some treat tankers as "Combat Support" aircraft, in which case this role is usually referred to as "Airlift" or "Transport" aircraft.
Trainer aircraft: advanced jet trainers (AJT), intermediate jet trainers, primary trainers, basic trainers, flight-screening trainers, and gliders. There are also multi-engine conversion (or "crew") trainers, navigation trainers, EW trainers, and target tugs; most of these are transports — usually, but not always, converted late in their lives to training duties — although elderly fighters or bombers are sometimes employed for EW training and target towing work.
There are also "Test & Support" aircraft — a motley assortment of usually late-in-life aircraft of all sorts used for trials, calibration, telemetry, drone recovery, chase planes, avionics testbeds, or "hacks" for a variety of test purposes. Some are also used as ground maintenance trainers, loadmaster trainers, etc.; these are usually non-flyable and often exist only as partial airframes. For Wikipedia’s aircraft categorization purposes, these can be ignored except for technology demonstrators (e.g., X-planes) — although these would seem to be taken care of by the "Experimental aircraft" Category.
Where things become "unglued" is when you try to factor in the basic platform types: fixed-wing (including "swing-wing"), rotary wing (helicopters and autogyros), or tilt-rotor. Furthermore, the fact that the operation of any of these can (theoretically) be manned or unmanned, there is now a third way to slice everything. I personally track them as a further "role". "Unmanned" can include UAVs, UCAVs, drones, targets, aerostats, and uncrewed airships. Some include crewed lighter-than-air (LTA) airships as transports; others lump all airships together as "Unmanned". Likewise, some treat aerostats as "Combat Support".
For the purposes of Wikipedia, the "roles" lump too much together, while the "missions" make for a far too unwieldy mess. I would recommend that the "Military aircraft" Category have the following subcategories:
I would drop cruise missiles as an "Aircraft" category and assign it under "Rockets and missiles" instead. Transport and Utility aircraft could be broken out as separate categories, but I don't see much use of the latter term and the average Joe wouldn't know the difference. Most tanker and rescue aircraft are actually modified variants of transports, not designed as such from the start; still, Tanker aircraft could be broken out if desired (and folks are writing separate articles for them).
Of course helos and UAVs can have many of the same missions, so you might want to separate out fixed-wing, tiltrotor, rotorcraft, and UAVs ... but of course, UAVs also come as fixed-wing, tiltrotor, and rotorcraft.... Askari Mark | Talk 01:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you find it helpful. I've corrected a few oversights and added an Airship category option, so you might want to rescan it. Since I originally posted it, I've been wrestling more with the issue while working on the List of military aircraft of Japan, which is also what led me to post my "National aircraft lists" query below. As a contrary example, I find the List of military aircraft of the United States too fragmented and confusing to use and rather limited in the information provided and unattractively presented.
My feeling after working on the Japanese list is akin to Born2flie's. I would make each aircraft "era" a level 1 header section, then level 2 header subsections for platform categories (e.g., "Manned fixed-wing"), and next a table along the lines of the one currently in Japan. The first title line, however, would be the mission (broken out as in my recommended summarized list above, not the detailed listing), followed by operating service (e.g., air force), then the column headers as in Japan's. The "In Service" dates would be from IOC (not first flight or first delivery) until the last example was retired (not from when they were withdrawn from primary combat roles to secondary uses). What think you? Askari Mark | Talk 00:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This article is talking about probable events in 2005 (e.g. may happen in the future in the year 2005). We're in September of '06. Can you get some people into that article? Colonel Marksman 21:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been adding some data to the List of military aircraft of Japan and I am curious as to whether there has ever been any discussion of a standard format, content, listing order (alphabetical by manufacturer/by IOC/or whatever)? These lists are a mess and no two appear to take the same approach. The Japanese list, for instance, starts with "1945 to date" and then goes to all older aircraft; the German list starts from the beginning. Any thoughts? Askari Mark | Talk 00:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.
The plugin has two main modes of operation:
As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.
For more information see:
Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 11:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Currently many of the aircraft pages contain the Template:Aircraft specifications, producing message "For an explanation of the units and abbreviations in this list, please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Units key".
It may be useful, however there are a few problems with it. First of all, it is somewhat self-referencing, pointing to WP:AIR subpage. That is generally considered undesirable, since Wikipedia mirrors might skip Wikipedia namespace contents. I don't see reasons to keep this out of the main namespace. Maybe it would be better to move it to the main namespace, calling something like "Aircraft units", or was it already discussed?
Second, the page itself doesn't really give an explanation, and not even conversion coefficients. I think it could be improved, at least by giving definitions to some units and explaining their meaning for an aircraft. I could do some of that. Any objections/suggestions? --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 16:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
No project page. Is this a reality or a suggestion? And how is this not under the purview of WP:Air's stated purpose? (Born2flie 06:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC))
There's been a discussion going on over at Talk:X-38 Crew Return Vehicle that I'd like to invite other project folks to take a look at and weigh in on. It started with a merge of two articles, then a debate what the article should be named. A recent input from an editor called into question the wisdom of the merge. Problem is, there just hasn't been really enough people reviewing the situation to come up with a good consensus, which is what's really needed. We could use the wisdom of the project to help with the discussion! Thanks! Akradecki 18:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering how much of the specifications template the rest of the editors feel should be filled out before the ((aero-specs)) template is removed. I think there should be some sort of quantifiable idea that certain numbers are more critical than others, and when the critical information is filled out, then the template should be removed. (Born2flie 13:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC))
Mark, that kind of goes to my point. How many of the specifications are necessary or required for an encyclopedia and how many aren't? What purpose will the majority of encyclopedia readers gain from all of the specifications? (Born2flie 10:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC))
Hi everyone. Air Force One is up for featured article review as it lacks inline citations. It can be found here. If anyone is able to provide sources for it or any other improvements, please do so. Marskell 13:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
My significant edits to Boeing 747SP (including removing specifications for 3 other 747 models and citing sources for the 747SP data) were recently reverted by an anonymous editor who believes I made it worse. Please review and add your input. ericg ✈ 05:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
F-35 Lightning II is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 19:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
An increasing number of airliners (Boeing 747SP, for example) have cropped up with specifications in a table format that cover multiple variants, often differing only in engine and weight figures. Additionally, they're missing quite a bit of the content present in the standard template. The project guideline is to only list specifications for one most popular variant of an aircraft, rather than all of them, describing the others in the text.
What action should be taken on this? Any change away from the table seems to prompt a rapid revert. ericg ✈ 07:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just created this Article, could I please have some help with it? Thanks, Dfrg.msc 1 . 2 . 3 23:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Is anybody interested in creating an official user box for all WikiProject Aircraft participants? (Wikimachine 03:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC))
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This user is a member of WikiProject Aircraft. |
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This user is a member of WikiProject Aircraft. |
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This user is a member of WikiProject Aircraft. |
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This user is a member of WikiProject Aircraft. |
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)