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I have proposed at Talk:Air traffic control that Airport traffic control tower should be split out into a separate article, with potential for substantial expansion. Please see the discussion there. Cheers! BD2412 T 17:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello users, tweets of two users on twitter, AviationAll and JetArena are repeatedly being used as sources especially by FlyJet777. I believe these two twitter users are just aviation enthusiasts and their tweets cannot be considered as reliable sources. Would like to know the opinion of other active users in the project. Pinging Fylindfotberserk, Sunnya343, Jetstreamer to add their points. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 17:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LeoFrank: Don't look authentic, the first one definitely does not. Isn't it better to use news articles or official websites rather than tweets? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

News articles are better no doubt. But FlyJet777 does not seem to do that. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello and greetings to fellow aviation users on Wikipedia. I would like to mention that I am well aware of the fact that Twitter is not a reliable source to be used on Wikipedia. However, I do have an explanation as to why I use it despite knowing the same.

1) As @Fylindfotberserk mentioned about news articles/websites, I fully agree with it. However, there are many routes for which such articles are not available. For example: MAA-KWI flight by IX scheduled to start on March 3. No article was published on the route nor the flight schedule is available on the airline's page. But, the reservations are open for the flight. So I added Kuwait in MAA's A&D list and cited AviationAll because that was the only online source available. And I did it only after verifying whether the reservation of the said flight was open.

If @LeoFrank and other users believe that I should instead use booking links (if Wiki rules permit it) from the airline website for citation, then its fine.

2) There have been several instances where other users add names of destionations without citing anything. In that case if any article is not available then I provide citation for the routes from AviationAll & JetArena (again, only after verifying if the flight reservations are open or not). Flight schedule updates on new flights are not available in most Indian airline schedules (except SpiceJet). So I provide a JetArena citation. But, as any reliable source becomes available (like Aeroroutes), I replace JetArena & AviationAll citation with that or other similar reliable sources.

Since citation is a very important part while adding content in Wikipedia, I use sources like AviationAll & JetArena when other sources are not available. Also while this may sound as immature statement, but AviationAll & JetArena are correct most of the time. Therefore, I use these two as alternate sources.

I hope I am able to explain my part. Thank you and best wishes to all! FlyJet777 (talk) 19:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can use twitter as a source only if it is from the official handle of the airline, not when it is some random person's tweet. About sources always not being available, we can WP:WAIT. Also, booking engines are not reliable sources, neither are tracking websites. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To say, you add only after verifying if bookings are opened or not, it is original research. Please also familiarize yourself with WP:SYNTH. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• These Twitter accounts are user-generated sources and should not be cited in any article.

  Regarding the example of the IX flight from Chennai to Kuwait, if no reliable source like an airline press release or news story can be found, it should not be added. As LeoFrank said, there is no rush to include it. We are not supposed to be a newsfeed of airline schedule updates. If no reliable source arises before the flight begins, a solution might be to add a third column to the table and cite IX's timetable, like what is done in the JFK article. Then when the flight starts, it can be added to the list and it would be supported by the timetable reference.

  To be honest I think this debate demonstrates that we should not have these lists at all per WP:NOTDATABASE and WP:NOTNEWS, but I won't get on my soapbox about this now. If the lists are to remain, they should be based on reliable sources. Sunnya343 (talk) 01:28, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

is a clear case where WP:SPS applies.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SeanM1997 (talk · contribs) is one step ahead, they are using their own tweet to add content, eg: [1]. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 11:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a lie! I have never used myself as a source. I've been told to use independent sources as apparently airline websites aren't good enough even when they're on sale! I do and now thats not good enough. I meet the terms and you still want to attack me for something which is not true? SeanM1997 (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am also based in the UK, this is an article from India. One I had no control of their content. The accusations are just to harm me! SeanM1997 (talk) 20:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will also say - look at my edit history. Look how many times I have removed other people's edits for quoting my X account and put an actual online article as a source. So when you say self promotion and my editing patterns - then I question YOUR agenda SeanM1997 (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Um you're using an article as a source that uses you as a source for something that is supposedly expected to happen? This is so far from a source you can use. The article is literally quoting your tweet as the source. Considering your huge issue and history with providing reliable sources I think this should be taken further. You clearly have some severe issues with providing reliable sources and it's gone on too long. Canterbury Tail talk 21:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that each ICAO airport code is unique; even if they double-assigned a code by mistake, it should be easy to discover the error and (eventually) rectify it. However, we have two articles with code YCHK. Could someone look into the situation?

• Graeme Rowley Aerodrome, in northern Western Australia, has the coordinates 22°21′20″S 119°39′8″E / 22.35556°S 119.65222°E / -22.35556; 119.65222. YCHK redirects there.
• Christmas Creek Airport, in northern Western Australia, has the coordinates 22°21′15.5″S 119°38′31.1″E / 22.354306°S 119.641972°E / -22.354306; 119.641972. YCHK is mentioned there twice.

As you can see, the coordinates are for the same place, but each article mentions the other in a disambiguation hatnote. Rowley links this page from Airservices Australia, which gives the name "CHRISTMAS CREEK", an elevation of 1454 feet (same as the Rowley article), and 22°21′21″S 119°38′33″E / 22.35583°S 119.64250°E / -22.35583; 119.64250. Christmas Creek links this page from "Great Circle Mapper", which gives a very different location (18°53′S 125°55′E / 18.883°S 125.917°E / -18.883; 125.917) and elevation of 125 feet (same as the Christmas Creek article). But the source doesn't look reliable. Has someone accidentally treated one airport as two (perhaps one was closed, and the other was built nearby and given the same code?), or has someone accidentally attributed one's information to the other, or what? Nyttend (talk) 20:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)][reply]

Being active in documenting aerodromes in the broadest sense of the word, but normally only in Europe, I couldn't resist taking a look. Figure my surprise when looking at https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-22.355556&mlon=119.652222&zoom=15#map=15/-22.3597/119.6418 - obviously a total mess. Sure enough there is only one single aviation terrain! And just for the sake of nitpicking, I do not think the place meets our definition of an airport - airports are where airliners go, by and large. So yes, some cleanup is in order, both in our here Wikipedia and in OSM. Jan olieslagers (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After a second look: perhaps the airport descriptive is justifyable, I see images of airliners operating there, likely on charter from the mining operator. My suggestion would be to keep the Christmas Creek Airport entry, since it corresponds closest to the official data from Airservices Australia. The other article ought to be removed, after transferring its relevant info. I will proceed to update OSM accordingly, but am hesitant to touch the WP articles, since I am on (for me) "terra incognito". Looking forward to other voices chiming in! Jan olieslagers (talk) 11:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The content at the Great Circle Mapper reference in Christmas Creek Airport seems completely wrong. The information at Graeme Rowley Aerodrome seems more correct, based on the Airservices Australia documents: 1, 2, 3, 4. The name they use is "Christmas Creek" though, so the articles should probably be merged into Christmas Creek Airport. — MarkH₂₁^talk 11:49, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, merging the articles is the way to go. After all, the assumption right at the beginning is correct: ICAO codes are unique and unambiguous, though they are sometimes re-assigned to a new aerodrome when the original one closed. It seems obvious that such is not the case here. And, though some say we should use the "name most commonly used", for aerodromes I prefer to stick to what official documents say. Jan olieslagers (talk) 16:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and at a third look: the articles do give one and the same ICAO code, yet they mention different IATA codes, which is perhaps the source of confusion. Have they been mixing up things at IATA? Again, local knowledge is in order.
CKW,Christmas Creek Mine,Christmas Creek Mine Airport
CXQ,Christmas Creek Stn,Christmas Creek Stn Airport
Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! I noticed some of the airport articles have a destinations map in the Airlines and destinations section, for example, Appleton International Airport#Airlines and destinations. I didn't see any regulations about it in Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Layout (Airports)#Airlines and destinations. Can someone explain to me when should or should not put the destinations map? It seems that the large airport articles don't have a destination map. By the way, is there any tool that helps generate it? Manually copying and pasting coordinates into Location map+ template is troublesome. Please ((ping|瑞丽江的河水)) to reply me. Xiliuheshui · chat 16:15, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent discussions about the maps can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 19. Sunnya343 (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sunnya343: Hi Sunnya343, thank your for the reply. I am making an automatic tool that helps generate the destination map. I have a little question, when a destination is both seasonal and charter (airline A operates seasonal, airline B operates charter), but not regular, what type should be displayed on the map?--Xiliuheshui · chat 17:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the best idea to differentiate between seasonal, charter, or daily service, etc. would be to have there be different colors and/or add dashed lines to further display the difference. Funforme3 (talk) 00:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Funforme3: Yes I think so. If an airline operates daily flights to a destination, we should absolutely mark the destination as daily on the map, whatever other airlines operate seasonal or charter. But if airline A operates seasonal, and airline B operates charter, no airlines operate daily flights, what should be displayed on the map, seasonal or charter? I think the priority is daily > seasonal > charter > seasonal charter > others (e.g. mining charter in Australia).--Xiliuheshui · chat 11:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see little use in mapping only the destinations - to do this seriously, one should map the destinations AND the routes. Different line types or colours for the routes can then indicate the level of service. A destination is not daily, a route can be. But, frankly, I do not think the idea should be pursued, it brings us too close to being a travel guide, which we do not want to be. Jan olieslagers (talk) 13:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no strong opinion on whether we should or should not place a destination map. My main goal is to provide a solution that addresses the issues of automatically generating and maintaining the map.--Xiliuheshui · chat 14:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So you are addressing a problem that you are not sure to exist? Hm, enjoy yourself. Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read through the past discussions on including maps in articles, so I am unsure what the consensus is. In my opinion we should leave this task to websites like FlightConnections.com. Sunnya343 (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to make some useful tools during my programming learning journey. I noticed that previous talks pointed out that the destination map is difficult to maintain. It can also be used in WikiVoyage, if they provide the same map templates.--Xiliuheshui · chat 20:43, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see a use for having a route map for the airline pages. I don't see how this would turn into a travel guide but more of a visual representation of the airlines overall service and provide information to a reader who may not be as knowledgeable in aviation and just looking to learn about thr airline. A majority of people just wanna know where the airline flys to and don't want to have to download a seperate app or go to a few websites to get a map to show where the company operates. Besides Wikipedia is supposed to be a knowledge base of information.

I also want to add that recently I started cleaning up and reorganizing the different airline accident and incident sections on pages as some are in a horrible table format and clutter the page. See the American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, and others to see what I've done to them. If we want to represent data and information, do it so as to not bloat the page and allow a redirect for more information about the topic instead. Funforme3 (talk) 21:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A destination map for airlines is a good idea, but due to the inconsistency of the destinations list in airlines' article, it is a challenge to crawler. Personally, as a reader, I would like to see a destination map in an airport article, but I don't want to debate whether it should be placed.--Xiliuheshui · chat 23:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yah that adds to the compilation of running such a map. Routea and destinations are always changing many sites maintain a map for stuff like that like FlightRadar24 but they only display upcoming and previous routes for 7 days so not always reliable. These would need to be updated at an airline specific map which then would connect to the specific airport page. It would be a huge undertaking but would be epic if done. It could be achieved using categories as well. Using Wikidata and creating a category for routes and airline routes it would be possible for the auto generation of a route list and connecting it to the airline and airport page. If anything it could be a tenplate for the pages but I personally wouldn't see it being something every airline or airport page needs or will have. I would still like it though. It would provide a valuable resource in understanding different airport and airline operational capabilities past their yearly reported data list that each page has. Funforme3 (talk) 18:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NAlso to note there could be some overlapping integration with OpenSky-Network. Like they keep a track of all flights and log the data and anyone with an account can go in and update aircraft/airframe data as well as add routes and fill in missing data. Could use their API to help populate and fill the routes/flights.

[2]https://opensky-network.org/ Funforme3 (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice there are a couple of unanswered comments about the accuracy of the runway labelling at Talk:Sydney Airport. Someone with subject matter knowledge should probably take a look to see if there is merit to them and reply either way. Thryduulf (talk) 21:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you look at airports hour by hour (UTC), there are two hours per day where Memphis International Airport is the busiest airport in the world. A pilot told me that Fedex has special permissions to fly with abnormally short spacing during the night when their cargo planes are the only planes using the airport. The Fedex superhub has no content in the body of the article with WP:ICs from WP:RS. It has been the busiest cargo airport in the world several years and is the busiest airport in the world for 2 hours a day. This airport needs some expert attention to beef its article up.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]