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The result was Delete. I note that mentions in notable media are not the same as making a subject notable; sometimes, as in this case, they merely confirm the existence of the subject.  Frank  |  talk  04:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sixteen Cities[edit]

Sixteen Cities (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:MUSIC. It comes very close on multiple points, but that just isn't good enough.

The band has released multiple albums, but these don't help with the clause on albums, number five, which requires multiple albums on a major or important independent label. Of the three albums two have been self-released and one is on an unimportant indie label.

The band has also been on several radio stations, which might seem to fulfill clause 11, "Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.". The band hasn't been placed on rotation however - simply played. The radio stations in question hardly qualify as "major".

The band has played on notable tours, but doesn't seem to have gained major coverage from this (when major is defined, per WP:N, as multiple detailed sources). They have mentions, yes, but that is exactly what you'd expect and not good enough.

The band appears to fulfill the most important bit of WP:MUSIC ("Has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician or ensemble itself and reliable") at first glance, but look again. Although the article is referenced multiple times they're all references to blogs, other non-notable sites such as minor internet radio stations, the record label and self-submitting sources such as garageband and youtube. In conclusion: fails WP:MUSIC, smack with hammer. Ironholds (talk) 23:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete. Bravo for a well-researched and clearly expressed nom (though I don't see how the hammer reference is helpful). Anyway -- the first radio station listed appears to be Internet-only, and it's hard to imagine it reaches a lot of people (it looks like it's maintained by only a couple people as a hobby or very small business venture, hence it's likely there isn't much marketing going on there). The 105.9 station lists 3 references, none of which appear to meet WP:RS -- and more importantly, none of which appear to even mention the 105.9 station! Also, that station does not have a Wikipedia article, it's hard to assess whether it's a major one (but Spokane is not a big city, so it can't reach a ton of people.) There is not a single reference in the story that clearly meets WP:RS. Seems a clear delete. -Pete (talk) 00:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  "smack with hammer" is just a jokey reference to describing the admin tools as the "banhammer" (I know it's a deletion, but wth). Thanks for the nompliment :P. Ironholds (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - I agree with Peteforsyth: great research in the nom. However, my view is that the extent of the information you've dug up is an indicator of the band's notability. Most importantly, much of this information comes from third-party sources, many of which are notable. While obviously not a platinum act, their inclusion in notable tours and mentions from non-internet radio play on several stations are verified by several notable sources. To me, their "mentions" in multiple articles on the tours and the radio play are sufficient--being placed on "rotation" is ill-defined and biased towards top40 commercial radio as many stations do not really maintain such rotations. Zachlipton (talk) 06:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Many stations don't, no, but it requires rotation on radio networks, not just individual non-internet stations. The plays may simply be that - single plays, once on each station. I can't see any information "from third-party sources, many of which are notable" - references are divided between non-notable third-party sources (fails WP:RS), first-party sources (fails WP:RS) and user-submitted info like Garageband (fails WP:RS). Even if there are references that are third-party and reliable which attest to them being played on a radio station/whatever, the references are not going to cover them in detail. "We're here on X festival tour, and Sixteen Cities are playing, and oh look over there another band!" is third-party, covers the subject matter and is reliable, but it doesn't cover the subject matter in the detail needed to be considered under WP:MUSIC. Ironholds (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Checking Google News archives, and searching in a library database of newspaper and magazine articles, I was unable to find any reliable sources that cover the subject. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - kudos to the nominator for the work put in before making the nomination. There just isnt enough here to establish notability. That may very well change in the future, and an article at that point would be appropriate. -- Whpq (talk) 15:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 00:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sam Byrne[edit]

Sam Byrne (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable teen actor. Only one role. Created by a known hoaxer, although this is apparently not a hoax, though the original edit with several totally unsourced and unsourceable credits was a bit of a hoax. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete. Fails WP:ENT. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Without prejudice. I see no indication of notability. Shadowjams (talk) 08:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rosli Mansor[edit]

Rosli Mansor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I deprodded as it had previously been prodded and deprodded, but I can't find more than one passing mention to this guitarist in a reliable source. Bearing in mind that the Singapore media might have some hard to find coverage, perhaps someone will find sources I didn't - but I doubt it. Fences&Windows 22:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - no evidence of notability. Yworo (talk) 22:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• delete - no reliable sources to establish notability -- Whpq (talk) 15:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was nominator withdrew. MS (Talk|Contributions) 19:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shakira's third English studio album[edit]

Shakira's third English studio album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable. The title and complete track listing haven't even been confirmed; a violation of WP:NALBUM. Speedy Keep - see below. Pokerdance ^{(talk/contribs)} 21:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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And? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.114.217 (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. WP:NALBUM, WP:HAMMER, WP:SLOBBERINGFANBOY. 1 RS listed. No title. No track listing. No significant coverage by multiple sources. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, per The Hammer.  Esradekan Gibb  ^"Klat" 13:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above: no title and no track list. Some of this appears to have been copied from the artist's article, where it belongs at least until the title and track list are confirmed. Cliff smith ^talk 16:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep it lacks a title and complete track list, but the article is quite detailed and is not lacking in references at all. CloversMallRat (talk) 04:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Let's see: is there a tracklisting? No. Is there a name? No. Is there more than one reliable source? No. Then bring on the Wp:HAMMER. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)|(talk to me)|(What I've done) 09:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I do wish we could ban "studio album". :) It gets so tiring. --User:Woohookitty ^{Diamming fool!} 14:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: The album is going to be released in October, thats not very far away....and Shakira already confirmed to MTV that the title of the album is ' She Wolf ' SOSOLAME (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Regardless, the entire track listing hasn't been confirmed. Pokerdance ^{(talk/contribs)} 21:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Stop Hammer time! --BlueSquadronRaven 05:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Delete. WP:CRYSTAL. -- RUL3R^{*flaming | *vandalism} 20:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• The correct answers to DitzyNizzy's questions are:
  • Yes, we have sources for four tracks.
  • Yes, the name is She Wolf, as reported by many sources from MTV (cited above) to The Times of India.
  • Yes, we have multiple such sources including MTV, The Times of India, and Rolling Stone (cited in the article) available.
• Uncle G (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• In that case the article should be moved to She Wolf (Shakira album). -- RUL3R^{*flaming | *vandalism} 21:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree, RUL3R Stopitplease92 (talk) 03:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC) (Keep)[reply]

• Done. Speedy Keep. Pokerdance ^{(talk/contribs)} 05:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Joevannie Peart[edit]

Joevannie Peart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

no real claim to notability. football player who has not played for his country or at professional level, fails WP:ATHLETE no significant independant coverage, only club bio pages and the like. ClubOranje^T 20:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete - player fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:N. GiantSnowman 14:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not notable, doesn't look like they played in many games either ^TheWeak_Willed 19:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 23:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalism Magazine[edit]

Capitalism Magazine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I've converted the prod for this into AfD, mainly on the grounds that the article has been on Wikipedia for so long - since April 2003 - and has been edited by so many editors that deletion can't be totally uncontroversial. I have looked for reliable sources myself, and while it has been cited in news media and discussed in passing once or twice, nothing has been written about it in depth - at least, nothing I can find.

Prod reasoning was "Does not appear to meet notability standards, and does not appear to meaningfully assert notability. They run syndicated pieces from a few notable authors--that's nowhere near the same as having Thomas Sowell as a direct contributor" and "No indication that subject meets the notability criteria for web content." Fences&Windows 20:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I prodded it, and I stand by the reasoning in my PROD, which F&W has been kind enough to repost. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I'm the one who seconded the prod. The site does not meet any of the notability criteria for web content. It has not been the subject of other works, it has not won any awards, and it is not distributed by an independent source. --RL0919 (talk) 21:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Delete - The website doesn't seem to meet the web notability criteria. Having said that, it has been quoted by numerous notable news organisations (like FOX) and the contributors seem to be notable. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 21:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I got about 70 gnews hits. About 60 of them were for the actual magazine. Mainly references to articles in it by other news publications or to writers for the magazine. Has several notable writers, including Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell, Edwin A. Locke, Edward Cline, Michael J. Hurd and others. Certainly no fly-by-night start up. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Sowell and Williams have syndicated columns that are published there--that's not nearly the same thing as writing FOR them. Furthermore, notability is not inherited. TallNapoleon (talk) 04:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I know it's not inherited, nor did I make that assertion. I said they have a number of notable writers, indicating that they are legitimate. And syndicated or not, I found several news mentions of Williams and Sowell being referenced as saying "XYX in Capitalism magazine". Niteshift36 (talk) 05:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - an informative well-written article on a web-magazine with numerous citations by notable media sources. Indeed, the fact that so many editors have had cause to edit this article over the years does speak to notability to the extent that the subject doesn't veer into fandom, which this topic certainly does not. Zachlipton (talk) 07:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - this is not a notable site. I don't see anything notable about it. Kingturtle (talk) 01:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I don't know what value an article has. What more would a user want to know about them that isn't explicit on the website itself? --Karbinski (talk) 20:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I agree with Karbinski here. -RLCampbell (talk) 01:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 01:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Melanie Benz[edit]

Melanie Benz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An Unreferenced BLP and even if it were to be referenced I doubt that this person would meet the notability guidelines. Polly (Parrot) 19:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete. Fails WP:ENT. Nothing but minor roles. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - the acting is insignificant. The claim for choreography/dance is probably the strongest assertion of notability, but that isn't backed up with any sources, and I was unable to find any in my owne searches. -- Whpq (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was deleted as a hoax. ➲ REDVERS ^{Buy war bonds} 07:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Joanne (novel)[edit]

Joanne (novel) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable book lacking GNEWS and GHits of substance. ttonyb1 (talk) 19:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete. A likely hoax. The author was deleted in February as a hoax in the Simple English WP: [1]. So was a movie supposedly starring her on this WP: [2]. Amazon doesn't show the book or anything from the author. Claims that is will be turned into a movie are dubious considering that nobody can even prove the book is selling. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as hoax. Edward321 (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — this person has been trying to propagate hoax article relating to Alis Peña Payan for a while now. ... discospinster _talk 23:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica characters[edit]

List of Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An unreferenced list of non notable anime characters Magioladitis (talk) 18:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep I dont see any real reason why to delete this, information other than cast actors for characters are hard to find and Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica looks like a notable visual novel. Have references been looked for here and has there been a discussion on deleting this article other than here? Knowledgekid87 19:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you confirm that this information is accurate? -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Looks like a fairly typical spinout list for a fairly large multimedia franchise. For verification, the external links on the main article can verify much of the basic information, such as cast/credits. Deletion is not the way to go -- arguments over whether to merge back into Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica can be made, but frankly that'd make it a bit bloated. Keep. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep appropriate list-- the default way to handle these articles. But as no argument given why a merge at the least would not be ok, not a reasonable nomination in the first place If we don't accept compromise on articles such as this, we're not being realistic. DGG (talk) 03:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Well that's the standard treat for spread franchise. Two anime seasons + 2 videos games + 4-5 lights novels series within a shared universe, it is bound to a have non marginal numbers of characters with intricate relationships. So the list is the proper way to handle it. --KrebMarkt 08:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So can you people prove that these characters exist and the information is accurate? Can you give me a source, not the novel series nor the video games themselves, so I can check myself that most of the information is not a hoax or fan-made? I have a feeling that when the article says that Corticarte Apa Lagranges "has a selfish character and dislikes it when Phoron is being kind to other girls." is WP:OR. And later I can see "Her sole purpose for coming to the Tsuge Divine Music Player Office seems to be meeting with Phoron." Seems? Isn't written somewhere? Check for sentences with "seems". They are plenty there. This article is not based in any trusted third party sources. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I cant read japanese http://www.polyphonica.tv/character/index.html, http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime/polyphonica/03chara/chara.html here are two orginal sources. I think this article needs some fixing up and not a delete. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 9:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

• Keep as per everyone but the nominator. Article clearly needs improvement, but that is not a reason for deletion. Edward321 (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This Afd is on whatever it is relevant for Wikipedia to have a separate characters list for the Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica not on the list content quality and verifiability which i agree are not good. --KrebMarkt 15:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Shinkyoku Sōkai Polyphonica is a notable series with both video game, manga, novel, and two seperate anime adaptations. The list has a clearly defined selection criteria and passes the other requirements at WP:STAND, which is the only thing we have resembling an inclusion guideline for lists. The list forces on the main characters for the series and avoids trivial information, such as incidental characters. Merging this back into the main article will result in an unbalanced article, so having a WP:SPINOUT article is warranted. --Farix (Talk) 19:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I see nothing wrong with the character list article. There are no convincing reasons to delete it. Dream Focus 02:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Bridget Show(TV series)[edit]

The Bridget Show(TV series) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The only refs I could find for this supposed tv show were blogs and "gossip" pages, and the most recent of those suggests it's not even going to be shown: [3]. Unverified and non-notable; delete. I42 (talk) 18:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. No evidence that this show is actually going to be aired on television. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 19:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Sadly, a Lauren Graham pilot from this spring that wasn't picked up by ABC for the new TV season. Not many sources and not on the level of a Heat Vision and Jack. Nate • (chatter) 22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - Per Nate. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Another editor inserted a sentence into the middle of Nate's recommendation. This has been removed. If the editor wants that comment restored, they need to post it as a separate comment/recommendation and sign their own name, not put it in the middle of someone else's statements. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete WP:CRYSTAL. --Pedro thy master (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. The keep "votes" far outnumber the deletes, but are often laden with weak arguments. On the other hand, the nominator and subsequent participants pushing for deletion mainly cite notability issues, which is a valid concern, but overall I see no strong consensus either way. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 17:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Paper Mario series characters[edit]

List of Paper Mario series characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

List-cruft, describes a whole bunch of *minor* characters. The game's protagonists each have their own articles, and all other pertinent characters could be discussed in the plot summaries of each article. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Tend to agree with delete. If they were recurring minor characters throughout the series, then yes, but these are safe to contain in their respective articles. --MASEM (t) 01:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep appropriate list-- the default way to handle these articles. These are minor characters, and clearer presented here than in the plot summary. If we don't accept compromise on articles such as this, we're not being realistic. DGG (talk) 03:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not sure if you are saying there is a default way to many list characters from a game or a default way to combine mostly one-off characters from various games in a series into one list. Either way, can you please link to the guideline to explain your position? —Ost (talk) 18:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per DGG. Jclemens (talk) 06:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, in the past information from this page was merged elsewhere and this was turned into a redirect. Then the relevant information was removed from other pages, thus giving this page a purpose once again. Still, either way, whatever happens do not redirect., I know that this has alot of page history and that there are complex copyright issues, but there is nowhere suitable to redirect to. If the result is to delete, but the page cannot be deleted, please move it to project space rather than turning it back into a redirect. --Taelus (talk) 08:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Striking keep, as it is not really clear on my stance. My point is, whether the result is keep or delete, please do not turn this back into a redirect. There is no list on the wiki. So why trick users into thinking there is one by having them redirected when they type into the search box? If copyright issues are a problem to stop deletion, why not just move this into project space? WP:IAR, even if moving an article to project space is rare, in this case it could be a good solution. I mean, without a disclaimer on the redirect target, (which I suspect many would disapprove of), users could end up following links for quite some time trying to work out where this list is buried, before realising there is no list. If redirecting is the favoured path, perhaps we could at least make this page disambiguate between games of the series to allow users to navigate to find details on the characters they are looking for? --Taelus (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • NoteI would encourage someone with GFDL experience to read the previous deletion discussions (AfD1,RfD1, RfD2) and determine if there is indeed an attribution issue at hand. —Ost (talk) 18:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. Taelus (talk) 08:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Mario role-playing games#Paper Mario series. There is no need for a list where less than ten characters actually appear in more than one title. If anyone feels like digging it up, I initially took the six recurring characters from the list, and merged them to the original Paper Mario series article before it was merged. It could probably be placed in that article. TTN (talk) 13:57, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as per DGG. Edward321 (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per DGG. I have to wonder why so much energy is concentrated on cleaning up material relating to characters who don't exist and so little (relatively speaking) to much more damaging BLP content. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment – the material here could easily be covered in their respective articles (all three game articles are well-under 30KB in size). I am also aware of the copyright issues present (and brought up at the two recent RFDs). I'll have to research this better before I make a decision about anything, but I should at least point that out. MuZemike 23:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - From the Wikipedia guideline at WP:GAMECRUFT

Excessive fictional details: A concise plot summary is appropriate to cover a notable game, character, or setting. Information beyond that is unnecessary and should be removed, as articles should focus on the real-world elements of a topic, such as creation and reception.

This article is a detailed plot summary of non-notable characters. There is still no legitimate reason presented about why the article does not violate this guideline.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 01:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:ITSCRUFT never being a valid reason for deletion. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 02:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, I am not just pointing at the guideline as the sole reason for deletion. The truth is that the content is not notable either, nor are there any reliable sources or any real world information to justify its inclusion. All the characters are already described in the parent games' articles. DGG said himself that the article contained "minor characters", and the guidelines state that minor characters shouldn't merit an article without notablility. I don't see how it's based solely on my opinion that "it's cruft".--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Notability" is a subjective term, perhaps not as nonsensical as the made-up "cruft," but again, not a really valid reason for deletion. If the content is verifiable and appears in a familiar game series, then that is good enough for our purposes. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 04:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Cruft" is a valid term on Wikipedia and is not something I just made up one day. Also, with no real world information the entire article is still plot summary, which is not enough for form an encyclopedia article from.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:16, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Cruft" is not a word any serious academic would ever use. Its use is the kind of thing that makes us look like a joke rather than a valid encyclopedia. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 15:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment – there is a Paper Mario (series) page that redirects to Mario role-playing games currently. If we could turn the redirect into a short series article covering the three games in brief, which would leave us with a logical place to redirect and keep the history intact; combine with my recommendation above, the content, properly GFDL-attributed, could be placed in the three game articles. MuZemike 05:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This would be a good alternative solution if we cannot move this page elsewhere to preserve history. --Taelus (talk) 08:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - The important characters are duplicated elsewhere and most of the information is WP:GAMEGUIDE information written in a WP:INUNIVERSE style. Player characters, main adversaries, and some minor characters—all of which are largely non-recurring—are already on in the main articles. I would be much more inclined to see a List of recurring characters in Paper Mario series or to redirect to List of the Mario series characters than to maintain this list that throws together various wikt:one-off characters from different games into a common list. If kept, this article should be trimmed to characters with their accompanying descriptions that have established WP:N from third party sources. —Ost (talk) 16:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Per communication above and at least a very minimal support of it. I recommend to split content back into their respective game articles and, when done, redirect page to a newly-created Paper Mario (series) page, which I think can be done and still be GFDL-compliant. This will leave character descriptions/plot coverage upon editorial discretion wrt the game articles as well as provide more complete articles for those games. Otherwise, I don't see why different content about the same game has to be in several different spots rather than one spot. MuZemike 16:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
  • This looks like, WP:SNOW here. I'm going to make a proposal to split via the talk page. MuZemike 21:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • A list of recurring characters would be basically the same as a list of Mario characters, since the characters are usually the same in all the games. As for the splitting, the content would probably be removed anyway because it's in general disarray and needs a rewrite. If it comes to making a series page, I think it should be located at Paper Mario and the game moved to Paper Mario (video game).--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • It doesn't matter. The article rescue squadron has effectively hijacked the article and this AFD (as with many others), and they get to determine what goes on here as opposed to what WP:VG does because the members of WP:VG are apparently inferior Wikipedians who don't know crap but to delete stuff (which is not true). I've tried to make WP a more reliable encyclopedia with good content which included trying to keep what I thought was good content or removing what I thought was unverifiable, unnecessary content; but apparently that's not what some users are going for, and some still insist on slapping others for trying to make content better. I was completely wrong. All content is good content. On that token, all articles are good articles, so leave them alone, because you didn't create it. Hooray for mediocrity! Let's all go home! MuZemike 06:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as DGG has mentioned. This is standard. --Kaleb.G (talk) 17:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Per WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, the argument that it's "standard" holds no merit.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Nothing wrong with this list that warrants any piece of it to be destroyed. All significant characters in the popular game should be listed. Dream Focus 22:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As said before, they are minor characters not significant enough for their own article.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I've looked over this list and this debate and I don't have a magic solution for this case, so I assume that would default to keep for now, since further discussion is needed. Although this is the way we usually handle these lists, I don't find this particular collection of characters "appropriate", to use DGG's word, at all. Looking over this list, I don't see a need for a good 90% of the material on here, as it is just way too detailed, or "crufty" as some say, for a general encyclopedia article. Also I'm not sure that most of this can be cited from reliable sources without having to use original research. The content and scope of this list are out of whack: read over entries like "Jolene" and you'll see what I mean when I say this article has major OR and plot issues. I imagine a possible solution would be to merge this to the main article and there we can create an encyclopedic understanding of the characters. Perhaps an article on this topic would be appropriate if we tightened up the standards of inclusion (such as only writing about major characters). Anyway, I highly recommend some further course of action be taken with this article after the conclusion of the AfD, and as MuZemike was getting at, I think this should be taken to the talk page as it is apparant that there is no consensus here to delete the article. ThemFromSpace 07:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep standard list that is verifiable and notable. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep It's very notable.Pedro thy master (talk • contribs) 21:10, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Literally no assertion of notability. 100% unsourced. Is there a magic guideline that protects this article from basic quality guidelines as those? Also, to Richard - verifiable? I see no verification of ANYTHING in the entire article. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 00:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you need to verify any of it, you just check the manual of the game. I'm sure someone would notice if the information wasn't valid. Dream Focus 04:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • So your answer to an incredibly big problem is a solution that's not okay in any sense? "Look it up for yourself" is the worst way to show that you even care about this article reaching the most basic standards of quality. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 04:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • You don't need a reference for every single sentence in a plot summary of a television show or movie. Same thing here. The original media can verify anything listed there. You don't have to list exactly what hour, minute, and second into the show something happened. Think about how the characters in a film are listed. And the article's quality level is based on content, not pointless citations for every little thing. Would you feel better if they told you what cut screen, or dialogue in the game, or other event, each character had their information revealed in? Looking over the article, I'm sure most of that just comes from the manual. You don't need to be told what page number each bit is from, since that section of the manual is short, and easy to navigate through. Dream Focus 10:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • CommentUm, you're plain wrong there. You need a reference FROM the original media for the plot summaries. Just check some featured vg articles to see examples. You can't just claim "look it up yourself" and expect your article to be verifiable.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did a Google book search and did find some information on development and reception that I added to the article. There appears to be oodles more on Google News. So, perhaps expanding the development and reception information would be a good start to build off of my additions. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 04:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • All the news articles appear to be about the 2-D-ness of the characters, but this all falls under "reception" rather than "development information". I still doubt that this would distinguish the article for its own page, since the reception information could easily be added to the articles' character sections.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am not opposed to a merge and redirect as a compromise, but per WP:PRESERVE, see no pressing need to redlink what is neither a hoax nor libelous. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I see absolutely no reason that this is notable. There are 3 sources that are totally unreferenceable online, which while I understand is not a reason to delete, makes the fact that online resources are apparently unavailable a bit suggestive. Besides, even if these are totally intact as the references suggest, why is this separate article really relevant and not just plain and simple List Cruft? I think this list section is as long or maybe longer than the actual original article at Paper Mario (correct me otherwise). Shadowjams (talk) 08:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because WP:ITSCRUFT is not a valid reason for deletion. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as subjects are clearly notable as demonstrated by the improvements made to the article since nomination, that they come from a recognizable franchise, and the fact that the items on this list can be verified by reliable sources as linked within this discussion to Google News and Books. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: there are definite improvements being made, and most of the content can be referenced from the instruction manuals (I can't find one for the original Paper Mario:
• PM2: [[4]] SPM:[[5]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by FMasic (talk • contribs) 13:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 00:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Will Wagstaff[edit]

Will Wagstaff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

• I declined the speedy deletion nomination, so I'm bringing it here for further evaluation. I remain neutral. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 18:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Having visited the Isles of Scilly on 3 occasions, it became apparent that Will Wagstaff has had an important impact on the islands and has carried out a lot of successful work regarding wildlife. I believe that he does have 'celebrity' status on the islands. edwardchelski 18:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong delete. (I'm the one that tagged this for speedy.) The author has given no credible evidence - indeed, no evidence at all other than the subject's web site - to back up his assertion of notability. The assertion itself is paper thin at best, and frankly I think the decline of a speedy delete is in error. But at least the editor who declined speedy had the courtesy to start this AfD discussion, so props for that. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Island Wildlife Tours' is a big thing on the Isles of Scilly, and Wagstaff not only leads it, but he owns the company. He has a number of notable positions. He is also an author - his guidebook is on Amazon.co.uk. He appears on various media. I have added more to the page in the hope that this might make the claim more than 'paper thin'. I still say keep. edwardchelski 11:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The additional references are of little use. They are mere listings of guides for particular companies and are promotional, much life the original reference. Another references another Wikipedia article, which is not allowed. The last one does not even mention Wagstaff at all, and is therefore useless. A regular appearance on a single radio station is not sufficient for notability — if it were, I myself would be notable. Still clearly fails to meet our notability standards. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 14:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok, i surrender. This was a genuine attempt that turned into a desperate attempt. You're probably right, I apologise for wasting your time. Delete. edwardchelski 15:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. He's president of the area's bird group, he's a writer, he's a leading naturalist...what more do you want? If that's not enough, even the laziest editor can find dozens more reliable sources on Google. Please do at least the barest research before nominating (or voting) for a deletion. Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 01:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did. I found little of relevance that wasn't something that simply promoted him. If "president of the area's bird group" was enough to meet notability standards, there would be about 100,000 people that met that standard. Why don't you post links to some of these "dozens" of references that you found on Google to prove what you say? - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 15:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a straw man--you know that his status vis-à-vis the bird club is not his sole claim to notability. As for sources... Since there is no policy saying "you must have more than X number of sources to establish notability", I maintain that one or two would suffice, as long as they're reliable. There are currently seven sources, and that's only from looking through the first couple pages of search results. I'd be happy to dig through the remaining 19 pages of results, but why should I waste my time--if the existing seven aren't enough, then why should I think others will satisfy you? What, in your mind, is a sufficient number of sources? Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you enclose "Will Wagstaff" in quotes, you get nowhere near the number of Google hits you claim for this particular Will Wagstaff, so you either don't know how to do a proper Google search for someone's name, or you're just making up numbers. I already picked apart the refs presented in my comments earlier in this thread. The majority of the Google hits I found are mere listings of radio programs, or of tours or some such. All but one or two are trivial mentions or promotional material. There's no straw man here - I merely did not address the entirety of your argument. Mr. Wagstaff is a minor personality in a small area, and does not meet notability standards, nor would he pass WP:SNOW. (By the way, Mr. McKnight, please refrain from snarky remarks such as "laziest editor" and the like. It is not welcome here.) - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 04:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, as I said, a search for "Will Wagstaff"--in quotes--yields 19 pages of results (that's over 2000 hits), as you can see for yourself, here. You are correct that some of cited sources are promotional, and I'll add that some of the cited sources are broken links, which should be removed. Still, there are a couple informational pages cited and likely more in the Google results, which will take some time for myself (or you, if you're so inclined) to properly inspect. Yes, Wagstaff is a regional personality, but he happens to be a notable regional personality. Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 07:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support! -edwardchelski 13:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. He seems notable enough, albeit locally, as a naturalist and broadcaster, as well as being a travel writer. Maias (talk) 04:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: There are now a dozen or so references, though the article still requires the attention of a Scilly Islands devotee who's willing to put some work into fleshing it out. Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 02:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, I still can't help but notice that all but two of the references now listed are not suitable either because they mention Wagstaff only in passing, or they are profiles listed on the sites of companies for which he works, or both. Morover, some of the refs are duplicates, or nearly so. I still sum up Wagstaff thusly: He is noted only within a very small field and small geographic areas, and is a local radio personality. He's a tour guide and has authired one book which Amazon sees fit to list. But there is very little non-promotional, independent material given that really tells anything of consequence about him. It's not a cut-and-dried situation where X number of references is enough. It's just that there is very little there there, to borrow a phrase. Is a local figure of limited notability even within the very small area such as the Isles notable enough for inclusion here? I just don't think so. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 04:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quip I think there's enough there there, and if you look here and there, you'll find more there there than you thing there is. Nathan McKnight -- Aelffin (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

John de Nugent[edit]

John de Nugent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

AFD closed three days ago and article deleted as advertising. This still seems like a biography that is so overly filled with personal detail as to constitute advocacy for the subject. Furthermore, I checked one reference (to the New York Times) and it didn't seem to actually discuss the subject. Finally, I doubt the notability of someone whose biggest claim to fame is finishing third in a Congressional primary in 1990. In any case, I think this would benefit from a full 7 day discussion. NawlinWiki (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy delete as recreation of deleted material. Nothing's really changed in 3 days. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 18:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I posted in the article's talk page...

I read the logs and entries objecting to my article. On "notability," the man campaigned and nearly won for US Congress in 1990 on an openly racist ticket, and has vowed to run again. CBS, NBC, ABC, the Washington Post, the London Times, BBC-TV, and other major media gave him important coverage recently. De Nugent is very prominent among white nationalists, and may run for president in 2012. Race and racism is still notable today.

Google has de Nugent at 1.5 million hits -- off and on, bizarrely -- and Bing, the new Microsoft search engine, has "John de Nugent" at 2.3 million hits.

So he is notable.

Is the article unambiguous advertising? I find it hard to imagine that an article detailing a man's encounter with child molesters, suicide attempt, divorces, expulsion from the most prominent website in his racist movement, and financial travails is "advertising," unless it is negative advertising against him. Still, I have attempted to make this article as neutral as possible, and welcome any attempts to further this goal.

I personally contacted De Nugent about the photo copyright issue and he has informed me that he sent photo copyright permissions to Wikipedia, on July 17, 2009, and Wikipedia has failed to acknowledge that email and send him a ticket number. He has agreed to release his photos under the Creative Commons Share-Alike License. The man obviously has the copyright on his own childhood picture, on photos of his television coverage that he purchased from a Nashville TV video service for $500, and for the logo of his own "Solutrean" organization.

I am sure that the new version of my article meets any good-faith objections.BobKostro (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The television coverage that he purchased from a Nashville TV video service for $500 is meaningless, the copyright is still owned by the television station and therefore can not be used. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 21:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Delete:G4. In addition, all available coverage seems to fall under WP:ONEEVENT (an interviewed associate of a WP:ONEEVENT-notable shooter). No Google News results for "John de Nugent" Congress. Major WP:BLP concerns: none of the 62 references appear to be valid and the article is obviously written by a WP:COI editor. — Rankiri (talk) 22:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Thanks to Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's machete-wielding skills G4 no longer applies but I'm still not convinced that the subject is sufficiently notable to pass WP:BIO — Rankiri (talk) 19:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy delete as G4, no better than the previous version. Probably salt as well. DGG (talk) 03:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Delete. G4. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weakest possible keep. I've taken a machete to the article and removed everything that wasn't appropriate for a BLP, which was about 99% of the article. Most of the text regarding his political opinions and positions was self-sourced, and self-serving in that it presented his advocacy rather than simply identifying his positions; much of it was entangled with BLP violations concerning other individuals. The referencing style in the article was beyond bizarre; if the opening paragraph had identified the subject as the love child of Eddie Stanky and Eleanor Roosevelt, born on Neptune, it might well have been referenced to a boxscore of a game in which Stanky played, a photo of Eleanor Roosevelt, and an astronomical site discussing Neptune. Many sections were either unsourced or referenced in this idiosyncratic manner. Nugent may not deserve the press coverage he receives (weirdly, the most reliable coverage he received is in multiple articles regarding the Rhode Island accent silliness), but there appears to be just enough coverage linking him to another violent incident at the Holocaust Museum to potentially make him notable enough for Wikipedia. That said, he is generally not notable for his political opinions, and they shouldn't be presented in the article except as related to those incidents. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - being the penpal of a murderer is not sufficient for notability. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 22:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - no claim / evidence of notability. -shirulashem^(talk) 01:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Per Allstar (first nom), DGG and Bigdaddy. -->David Shankbone 20:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete but this AfD needs to run the full length. G4 doesn't apply as the other AfD was closed after 3 days when the article was speedy deleted. The problem here is the lack of independent reliable sources showing notability, as most of what's out there is fails on one count or the other. I basically agree with HW about the article; I just disagree that what's left is enough for a standalone article. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 14:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rex Hamilton[edit]

Rex Hamilton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Rex Hamilton only has a minor role in a TV series. All that I can find is trivial mentions. Fails WP:ENTERTAINER. Joe Chill (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 23:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails WP:ENT in amazing style. I can't believe it, but the article itself sounds like a nomination for deletion! Niteshift36 (talk) 04:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Article clearly asserts the non-notability of its subject. Edward321 (talk) 15:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, for failing WP:ENT, and IMO, although I do feel that it makes a very weak assertion of notability (before explaining why it isn't), I've seen admins accept a Speedy A7 on articles more notable than that before --Saalstin (talk) 22:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which is why there are articles that get deleted even though the topic is notable because there are careless admins. Joe Chill (talk) 22:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • This would not be one of those cases. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 01:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sam Bettay[edit]

Sam Bettay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete. A non-notable Reality TV "star" who has gained no or little press coverage outside of his/her capacity on the programme. The article contradicts itself at various points - such as claiming that his/her school teachers refered to Sam as a female before she was a cross-dresser - and this makes me feel that this article is one big joke. See also: List of Big Brother 2006 housemates (UK)#Sam. DJ 18:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect and semi-protect. Darrenhusted (talk) 10:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. leaky_caldron (talk) 10:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nomination. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete should be a subsection in the BB7 housemate article. Geoking66_talk 15:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete As per other delete nominations. Melonite 22:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @162  ·  02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nélio Roldon Júnior[edit]

Nélio Roldon Júnior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nélio was under contract with a notable club but no source he made any debut on Brazilian nationwide level Matthew_hk tc 17:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 17:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom; two of the links on the article are dead, and the remaining one doesn't confirm he has actually played in a game; he looks to fail WP:ATHLETE and WP:N. GiantSnowman 17:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The 1st link indicates he has won titles with Botafogo Eldumpo (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the first reference doesn't indicate he actually played in any games for them during those seasons and may have just been a squad member. --Jimbo^[online] 15:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well the site says he's won those honours (Rio cup 2007 & 08) so unless there's counter-references it would seem reasonable that he did Eldumpo (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete no verifiable sources stating he's ever played in a fully-professional league or competition, thus failing WP:V, WP:N and WP:ATH. No third-party sources that satisfy WP:GNG. All the references on the article are trivial stats sites, that don't even produce how many games his played, hardly deemed reliable. --Jimbo^[online] 17:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. This source seems to confirm he didn't play for Botafogo, and I can find no other sources which say otherwise. According to his portugeuse Wikipedia entry, he currently plays for América Futebol Clube (Minas Gerais) in Serie C, which isn't a fully professional league. Therefore, he fails WP:N, WP:V and WP:ATHLETE. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 18:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. PeterSymonds (talk) 18:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adam Andrzejewski[edit]

Adam Andrzejewski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article fails WP:POLITICIAN. No references to secondary sources. Article has been speedied twice and the same content keeps getting reposted. Dismas|^(talk) 17:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC) Wouldn't that indicate that this person is noteworthy?--Loudes13 (talk) 18:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 17:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 17:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Doing a quick Google news search does seem to bring up a lot of significant third-party coverage of this person, especially with regards to his fund-raising ability. Seems to meet the third criteria mentioned in WP:POLITICIAN. The article could do with using these as references though Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 17:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, more or less per Panyd above. Here's the Google News results for 'Adam Andrzejewski': [6]. Many of those are trivial references, but there's several that seem acceptable sources, such as [7], [8] and [9]. It looks to me like there are enough references to pass WP:BIO. Robofish (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, poorly written does not make the person irrelevant. It is hard to not read a political blog in IL and not see his name. He is also a regular on Chicago talk radio. --Loudes13 (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  As an aside, I would politely suggest that the nominator read the guidelines at WP:BEFORE... looking for sources is something that should be done before nominating an article for deletion, rather than being left to the participants of the AFD. Robofish (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Suggestion noted, thank you. Dismas|^(talk) 02:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The references provide above don't accomplish much. Ref #2 tells he put his tax returns online. Is that really notable? Ref. #3 is a blog piece about how to pronounce his name. Ref. #4 is basoc coverage of his campaign. Basic coverage that he is running for an election next year really don't make him notable. If he wins the party nomination, then perhaps. Until then, he is 1 of 5 (so far) declared candidate and I'm sure there will be more. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Too soon, if at all. Person with no political office and no evidence that he will make the primary. Article is substantially like a campaign press release, complete with wikipuffery like "entrepreneur", the implication that he could have retired at 37 without any financial records in evidence, claims of "national attention" from a magazine that itself is non-notable, crowing about "measurable accomplishments" because some county put its check register online, etc. Even if subject were notable by now, this article would need to be reduced to WP:STUB or totally rewritten to meet WP:RS and WP:NPOV. And it seems reasonable to conclude that "significant coverage" in criteria means sources from which coverage is a sign of notability. Merely being able to fill space is a different story: making one's own media availability a full-time job is not notable (unless one leaks a sex tape and gets a TV show, but that has only worked for females so far). And Wikipedia is for people who are already notable (see specifically WP:POLITICIAN), not those who someone thinks ought to be or are destined to be notable. --Closeapple (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - per closeapple and the fact that news coverage (from google news) seems to be almost all local. Sure Chicago is huge the coverage seems trivial too. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Don't see any in depth coverage above of this person. Blogs in the Chicago tribune on the unpronouncability of his name and others relating to his candidature aren't sufficient. Per WP:POLITICIAN just being a candidate for office isn't enough. Valenciano (talk) 05:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 23:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Roca Skolia[edit]

Roca Skolia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

unsourced. non-notable fictional character bio that is inappropriate for inclusion. delete. Jack Merridew 08:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- Jack Merridew 08:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. -- Jack Merridew 08:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to an appropriate character list. Edward321 (talk) 14:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Changing to Keep Central character in a series that has won several awards, including two Nebula Awards. Edward321 (talk) 03:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  nb: one of those Nebulas was for an unrelated work, and the other was for a novella (which this character may not even appear in). Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as on of the most central characters of the Saga of the Skolian Empire series. Otherwise merge per previous editor. Debresser (talk) 18:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  nb: Saga of the Skolian Empire already redirects to the author's page. Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• merge or keep if important enough in the story. Any significant character in a notable work should get a one or two paragraph description. We're here to provide encyclopedic information--and if the main work is worth covering in the first place, people are likely to want some degree of detail. Why else would you use an encyclopedia in the first place, if you didn't want detailed coverage? And, there is certainly no valid reason why there should not at least be a redirect. Anything anyone might want to look up should have a redirect if there's relevant content in Wikipedia. DGG (talk) 00:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - no real world importance even asserted. Savidan 17:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete no valid reasons for keeping presented. Abductive (talk) 23:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Questions How many books has she featured a significant role in, and how major is she in the plots of the overall series? Dream Focus 20:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep as per Edward321 in previous discussion. While the article needs work this character is very important to the series. RP459 (talk) 17:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Create an article about the book series and merge. I have little knowledge of the subject but the series seems to be fairly notable, so giving them an article of their own would be reasonable. The character can be added there. Kotiwalo (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  How about *you* create an article about the book series and merge? The work onus is on those who want coverage. Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete.That the series is notable that doesn't imply the character is as well. No sign of significance outside the book series. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Certainty no sign in that article ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Edward321. Significant character in major series by award-winning writer. Given the extent to which Asaro's fiction has been written about and reviewed, particularly offline, the issue is not whether sufficient sources exist, but whether the fact that such sources don't turn up easily in Google searches justifies deletion of the article. The New York Review of Science Fiction isn't online, nor is Locus, nor Foundation, nor Extrapolation, nor many of the other sources where the needed sourcing can be expected, including even the review columns from the popular sf/f magazines. The fact that coverage isn't online doesn't make it insignificant. And, the last time I looked, WP:DELETEBECAUSETOOHARDTOLOOKUPBECAUSEITSNOTINDEXEDBYGOOGLE wasn't policy. (Maybe that's too sarcastic. But too many of these fiction discussions simply ignore the fact that there's a significant universe of sources that aren't Google-accessible. Book review indexes, for example, which are usually proprietary databases sold to libraries and colleges, for example.)Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  It's the book series that deserves an article in my opinion, this character can be merged there. Kotiwalo (talk) 19:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Covering all the books in a series article would be an improvement over the mess this stuff is now. Go for it. Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment — The so-called article does not even say that this is a fictional character; that's only in the tags at the top. The "keeps" are empty obstructionism. This fictional universe warrants no more than articles on the author and the books; the rest is just fancruft. Delete ;) — Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Reply comment. Actually the article describes its subject as a fictional character rather plainly in the opening sentence. And your characterization of other editors' opinions borders on the uncivil, and implies a lack of good faith. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 03:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  ya, um, no. You are assuming that readers know that the "Skolian Empire" is fictional — for all one knows from that sentence, it's like the "Roman Empire" and she could be like an Historian. Good luck with that wiki-lawyering ;) Jack Merridew 04:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Perhaps you could point out a Wikipedia article where an established actual person, living or dead, is introduced as originating in the books of author X, just as this character is introduced as being in "the Saga of the Skolian Empire books by Catherine Asaro." The import of the sentence is clear, as is the unfortunately and unnecessarily derisive tone of your comments. Mocking other Wikipedia editors and gratuitously challenging their good faith does far more damage to Wikipedia than the presence of the supposedly inappropriate articles you decry. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  The "import" of this character, *is* clear: zip. You have Good Faith?™ ;) Oh, nb: it doesn't say "originating". Cheers, Jack Merridew 04:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Seriously, what is your problem with simple civility? If you're going to wikilawyer over the clear meaning of every word in the comments of people who don't agree with you, you're just contributing to the incivility problems here. Nobody here accuses you of mindless behavior or challenges your good faith, but somehow you act like sticking metaphorical pins into people is more important than discussing substance. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 05:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm being perfectly civil in my view that there is nothing of substance in yon worthless article; Delete as Nominator. Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The character played a notable role in a bestselling series. Dream Focus 18:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @163  ·  02:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Game Show[edit]

Mr. Game Show (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced non-notable toy. I wasn't able to locate any significant coverage, in fact there was practically nothing on it whatsoever beyond the mere fact that the product existed - the only thing I could find for this is it's commercial on youtube. - 2 ... says you, says me 16:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Nothing tells me that this toy is notable. Looks like something you would find on a 99-cent store shelf. GraYoshi2x►^talk 17:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: All that I can find for reliable sources is a trivial mention. Fails WP:N. Joe Chill (talk) 18:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I remember this from 1987, and it was more than a 99 cent store thing-- it was closer to $59.95, which is why I'm not surprised that it didn't sell very well, and it could hardly be called the surprise hit of '87. Going strictly by my own original research, I can say that it was real, but it was not notable. Mandsford (talk) 21:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't arguing that it was a fake or unreleased product. Someone submitted it as a suggestion for Once upon a win (from the makers of I Can Has Cheezburger and Failblog). Most comments so far have been along the lines of "I don't remember that" likely alluding to its non-notability. - 2 ... says you, says me 22:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. No significant coverage in third party sources, and while the article rescue squadron and many others are keen to vote keep, they offer no new convincing arguments. Finding nothing to assert notability on LexisNexis is pretty damning, and I would expect a gentleman from this field to have several interviews or articles appearing on it. As it stands, I recommend waiting a year or two until he's advanced his career. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 20:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Petrick[edit]

Robert Petrick (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unable to find any significant coverage in unrelated reliable sources. There is a Robert Petrick who appears to be notable, but that is a convicted North Carolina murderer, not a graphic artist. Bongomatic 00:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - one of the seminal ambigrammists, along with Scott Kim and John Langdon. Featured prominently in three books on the subject of ambigrams. If that's not enough, no article on Wikipedia is safe from deletion. RoyLeban (talk) 01:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence provided to support that either (a) the works are "reliable sources" for notability purposes; or (b) that the coverage is significant. If the subject is intended to satisfy WP:BIO generally, the coverage should be about the artist, not simply a sampling of work. If the subject is intended to meet WP:CREATIVE, then his works being reproduced in a niche books will not suffice. Bongomatic 01:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Petrick fits under the following, from WP:BIO:

• The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors.
• The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.

You can see this in the cited works, which are not niche books. They are a good chunk of the books on ambigrams. Hofstadter's book is the only completely scholarly work on the subject. That book does not contain any of Petrick's artwork, but discusses his work (i.e., the coverage is about him). Polster's book devotes at least two pages to Petrick, maybe more, with text which is about him, plus some samples. I would not be surprised if Langdon's book discusses Petrick, since they worked together, but I haven't looked through my copy to see. I do know that Petrick's history of ambigrams discusses Langdon. Petrick's work has also been cited elsewhere (e.g., U&lc, ref'd on the Ambigram page).

As to the murderer with the same name, he doesn't seem notable in the least. Murdering your wife doesn't make you notable and his case got very little non-local coverage.

RoyLeban (talk) 04:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it received a lot of non-local coverage due to the search histories used in his prosecution. Bongomatic 04:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe so -- I just did a quick Google search and saw mostly NC coverage. I'd never heard of him and I've heard of search histories in other cases. But, forget the murderer. This discussion is about the ambigramist/artist/graphic artist/font designer. RoyLeban (talk) 05:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• There are a few issues at hand here, and I'm currently on the fence:

Most importantly, of course, is the notability and verifiability of the subject underdiscussion. Secondly, I would say is the interest of User:RoyLeban who, as you can see from the revision history on the Ambigram page, is an enthusiast and ardent defender of these pages, for some reason. Is there COI going on? Deadchildstar (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's an interest, not a conflict of interest. The interest is in completeness and accuracy. RoyLeban (talk) 18:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

regarding "completeness" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT#INFO Deadchildstar (talk) 19:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I mean "Wikipedia completeness". Petrick is one of three people who are responsible for the popularization of ambigrams. Even though Peter Jones was apparently the first to recognize the generality (that's according to Hofstadter), I'm not suggesting we have a page for him (though he does deserve mention on the Ambigram page). Inappropriate completeness would be a list of every one of Petrick's ambigrams or of everybody who's ever created an ambigram. And certainly there are oodles of such complete lists on Wikipedia I'd like to kill. RoyLeban (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Petrick, I'm inclined to support his *minor* notability as an American graphic designer. He had his day in the 70s and a bit into the 80s. In depth and too-long interview here: [10] -- Print is the perhaps the best known graphic design magazine in the US. Interestingly, skip to about 11:30 in the video, he talks about his Wikipedia page and how many hits he gets to his own homepage.Deadchildstar (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That interview predates this page. I assume he is talking about the link from the Ambigram page. RoyLeban (talk) 18:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, he seems to be working on *non-notable* independent projects. If one were to strip the article to its verifiable 3rd party sources, it would be quite short. If all of his notability was in the 70s and 80s, it becomes difficult to verify without a trip to the reference library. Or, apparently, User:RoyLeban's bookshelf.

As for the other stuff, I'm actually more concerned that there's an *entire page* on ambigrams! If you read it, it says: "The earliest known non-natural ambigram dates to 1893... [timeline deleted for brevity]... According to John Langdon, ambigrams were independently invented by himself and by Scott Kim in the 1970s.[7] Langdon and Kim are probably the two artists who have been most responsible for their popularization, but other artists, notably Robert Petrick, who designed the Angel logo, claim to be independent inventors." So Petrick claims to have invented something that was invented 80 years previous. Deadchildstar (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whoever wrote the original text in the article was unaware of earlier ambigrams, as were Kim, Langdon and Petrick, so it was quite reasonable for them to call themselves inventors. For many years, I thought they were the inventors. However, I came across a reference to Borgman's book, which I own, and found the ambigrams in there. Then I went looking for the originals in The Strand. And I also found the ones in the Topsy & Turvy's books, which I also own (reprint books are available on Amazon, feel free to buy them). And it wasn't until I was reading through Hofstadter's Ambigrammi that I was reminded of the story about Peter Jones in 1963 (I'd heard the story before but had forgotten about it). So, Jones, Kim, Langdon, Petrick, and lots of others (yes, including myself) independently invented the general concept even though actual specific ambigrams had been created earlier. The Ambigram article should be changed to reflect this acurately and I'll do that when I have time (remember: there is no deadline). And, no, I shouldn't be in the article as another "independent inventor" -- I did a few, then stopped until I saw Kim's work in OMNI in 1979. RoyLeban (talk) 18:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, if you live in a hole, you can say you invented anything? Anyway, there is no source cited here and the way this is all phrased puts words in the artists mouths, basically making them sound stupid ("Hey! I invented typography!"). This should cite a source that says they think they invented it, or be rephrased. Deadchildstar (talk) 18:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are independent sources that say these people invented them. But the sources are wrong, as can be proven from the earlier ambigrams. The assertions that each of them lay some claim to inventorship is also well-sourced, in their books and web sites. But a more accurate statement is to say that Jones was the first person to generalize them and that Petrick, Langdon, and Kim (that's the chronological order) popularized them. I've been meaning to rewrite the first section of the Ambigram article, but keep wasting time on stuff like this. RoyLeban (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhow, I'm inclined to say keep, but poor justifications such as the above claim make me want to sway towards delete. Deadchildstar (talk) 14:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete -- I've looked for reliable sources on the designer, and, although he's mentioned briefly here and there, there's not the required multiple instances of third party/independent non-trivial reliable sources demonstrating info that would make him notable enough for a Wikipedia article of his own. I've looked through regular Google, Google news and Google books. The most promising was an interview with Print magazine (it's unclear what issue/how long it was/whether it was one of those paid PR things these kinds of mags do sometimes, etc.), but that's about it. He gets lots of credit where some of his work is mentioned in a credit for those books that just collects tons of design projects for other people to see photos of and ooh and ah it, but none focus on him specifically over the hundreds of others in those books. Short mentions in some other books (Eye Twisters by Burkard Polster is an example of a trivial mention: just named, no detail). The font work is extremely trivial, as a handful of designs doesn't make him any more notable than thousands of other font designers (and his fonts are kind of amateurish, really... I've seen students in college give equal or better work). I am only giving this a weak delte, though, as it's possible more sources could be turned up, as it's conceivable more substantial ones like the Print magazine one could be out there. And I'm pleased to see Deadchildstar also caught onto Roy's obvious COI here, as Roy has been making similar COI edits to related articles. The murderer clearly has a lot more reliable and notable coverage (Dateline NBC, tons of newspaper coverage, etc. -- funny how Roy pooh-pahs that but can't come up with anything like that for his favored Robert Petrick), so at the very least if the designer does stay the article should be moved to Robert Petrick (designer) with a disambiguation page at the main namespace. DreamGuy (talk) 16:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, Polster devotes two full pages to Petrick and discusses him in the "Who invented ambigrams?" section (though inaccurately, he gets the dates wrong, as we can see from other sources). Maybe elsewhere too, but there's no index. RoyLeban (talk) 19:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Print Magazine is one of the most reliable, popular sources on American graphic design you'll find. It's not inclined to massive advertorial. As well, portfolio style coverage is common in graphic design (e.g. awards manuals, but also "Who's Who" style books) - because it is a visual medium, coverage is also sometimes correspondingly visual. You can't discount these types of sources if there are many. Also - your assessment of his amateur vs. professional status doesn't hold water for me. It's clear from looking at his work that he was trained as a designer in the late 60s and is thusly influenced. He may be derivative, but he is not amateur. Still doesn't mean he is automatically notable. Anyway, the other major article seems to be from the 70s, in U&lc, which is now defunct - also, though, a very notable and reliable source (U&lc should have an article over any of these contested subjects!) It's clear just from looking at Petrick's work that he was heavily influenced by Herb Lubalin, and U&lc was Lubalin's journal of typography, so it's no surprise he was covered. I maintain he was notable-eough in his time (and this is why a google search may not yield enough - someone will need to search periodicals in an academic or reference library). As to whether that makes him eligible and notable under WP:BLP, I'm not sure - I'm new here and still learning! Deadchildstar (talk) 17:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're kidding me, right? I never said Print magazine wasn't reliable, but it's the only such source of its kind I turned up, and the portfolio work is trivial compared to real coverage, and I am unsure of what exactly the coverage in Print entailed. As far as defending his design skills, I only pointed out that his font work is amateurish, an assessment which I stand behind, but it was just an aside anyway -- there are no sources calling his font design notable, just proof that he did some fonts, which, again, goes for thousands of people. Obviously his print work is going to be what makes or breaks his notability. DreamGuy (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I've got no problem with Robert Petrick (designer), but there is at least one other Robert Petrick who is a fairly well-known designer in Chicago (apparently unrelated), so a more specific designation might be warranted. I only did one quick Google search on the murderer. It looked like all NC coverage. He may well be notable, though I'll admit I hope not. RoyLeban (talk) 18:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• It would seem that many of the sources on this artist and on Ambigrams are *unreliable* if so many are incorrect. Deadchildstar (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• (smile) When Borgman wrote his book, he didn't know about the Newell ambigrams, nor did he call them ambigrams (he named them vertical palindromes, of all things). When Kim wrote his book, he didn't know anybody had done them before. When Langdon wrote his book, etc.... Polster knew about Borgman and thus The Strand ambigrams, and found the Newell ambigram (personally, I'd owned both the Borgman book and the Newell books for years, but had never recognized the significance of the ambigrams). Polster did his research, but missed some things. This is the way the world works, and is certainly the way Wikipedia works -- when new information comes to light, we update. Would you rather that things were never corrected? RoyLeban (talk) 17:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Seems like this should be relisted to get more feedback. RoyLeban (talk) 02:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think "more" is what's needed (you alone have contributed 6,473 characters). It's broader feedback from more people that would be helpful. However, it's only been listed for three days, so really no need to "relist" yet. Bongomatic 09:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that arguing just to argue? AGF! Clearly, I meant feedback from more people. RoyLeban (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You keep asking for good faith, Maybe you should show more yourself. You asked for a relisting three days into a seven day listing. No need. It was reasonable to wonder why you made such a request. Duffbeerforme (talk) 15:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? It had turned into a conversation between a few people and no new contributors. I wasn't looking at the clock. RoyLeban (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• weak keep - badly needs additional refs to establish notability, confirmation that some of the existing non in-line refs are actually applicable and integration into the article if this is the case. I've added the Rescue tag in the hope that it helps with this. Artw (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Odd that you should magically wander onto this article AFD considering the personalities involved. Seems like you have personal reasons for these votes instead of ones per Wikipedia standards, because your arguments are not consistent from AFD to AFD. Here you say it's lacking sources and should be kept anyway, elsewhere you say articles with sources should be deleted. DreamGuy (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please respond to the comments, not the commenter. RoyLeban (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I maintain that the article can't be rescued via online sources. I'm searched it to death - and I am still on the 'weak keep' side of things. We need a user with fine-arts related academic database access to tell us what they find. Deadchildstar (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Uh, how about physical books? Aren't they prefered over online anyway? All three of the references are on my bookshelf. Polster spends 2 pages on Petrick and mentions him elsewhere. Block & Yuker feature some of his work (I think this book is up on Google Books). Hofstader, whose book is about ambigrams and nothing else, discusses him and calls him a pioneer. RoyLeban (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Roy: yes, that was my suggestion, thanks for reiterating it. However, 3 books may not be convincing enough for notability, and often more information comes up in a periodical search through a specialized database, especially with non-current sources (as it seems our designer-at-hand was most notable in the 70s and 80s.) Also, Roy, your insistence alone won't help the case. Everyone on this discussion currently has said all they can on the topic. Deadchildstar (talk) 14:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't want to go into "other stuff exists", but I come across articles all the time that have zero sources, zero citations, zero references. And they're fine articles. Why isn't 3 books enough, especially given the fact that he's a pioneer in a field? RoyLeban (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Relisting comment - Normally I don't relist discussions with ample participation, but I feel it's justified here. I'd feel a bit uncomfortable closing this as "no consensus" at the moment. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Reading through the arguments above most of them seem to be focused on who invented ambigrams, whether or not Robert Petrick is good as an artist, and whether the murderer of the same name is more important. This doesn't have any relevance to the article's worth and makes the AFD discussion much more complicated than it should be!
  

There's a bit of a problem with this because unless you own the books which are used as references you can't really comment on their relevance or importance. However, Eye Twisters especially seems to be a collection of artwork, instead of coverage of the artist. Maybe the person who created this article would like to post what is written in the books so that the rest of us can judge more accurately?
Looking at Googlenews, Google and LexisNexis I can't find anything about this artist except for the aforementioned Print interview and one article in Adweek (April 2, 1984) which isn't about the artist on a wider scale but is instead a 92 word description of one of his pieces. The two main claims to notability this artist seems to have are A) He invented ambigrams, this obviously isn't true and that was an honest mistake on the point of the article's author and the artist himself. The second one is that he made an album cover for the band Angel. This in and of itself does not seem to be enough to establish notability and as I've pointed out, there are no other reliable sources available. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• FYI, Eye Twisters is not just a collection of artwork. I would guess it's about 50% text. It's still in stores, so it's easy to see it without having to buy it. RoyLeban (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Do you own it? Because as I said above it would be very useful for this debate for everyone to be able to see what was written in the book. Seeing as we can't all find a bookstore which has the book, and we can't all buy it, if someone could post the text it would be helpful. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Encyclopedic interesting designer. The article is short, but has potential...Modernist (talk) 23:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Cumulative mentions and achievements merit inclusion. The article needs inline citations. See WP:REFB for a guide. Ty 06:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep interesting minor artist/graphic designer Mick gold (talk) 18:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I contacted the subject and asked if he had a bibliography - he sent one along that would allow the article to be improved with incline citations. I volunteer to clean up the artice if it stands once AfD decides its fate. Deadchildstar (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you can put the updates in now and they show notability I'll happily change my vote! Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 00:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Read through some of the arguments, and I agree, this person does seem notable in this field. Dream Focus 06:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (X! · talk)  · @163  ·  02:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ramblin' Guy[edit]

Ramblin' Guy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

non notable dead horse, not speediable, prod removed WuhWuzDat 16:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Looks like a hoax or some family pet to me. GraYoshi2x►^talk 17:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep - This is a terribly written article but it is about a real race horse who has more than one article written about him in major news sources. Definitely notable. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Clearly not a hoax or a family pet. Sources obviously exist. Edward321 (talk) 15:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – make it a stub. Otherwise, looks like it's notable, and other sources (probably print in this case) can be easily found. MuZemike 17:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note – the article's creator is repeatedly removing the AFD tag from the page. User already has been given a ((uw-afd4)). Regards, MuZemike 17:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• ...and blocked as a result. MuZemike 23:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @163  ·  02:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haven Back Packer Resort[edit]

Haven Back Packer Resort (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

coatrack for news event. All independent sources are about the news event, not the "resort". Duffbeerforme (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 14:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete for the exactly the same reasons I stated when PRODing it 16 months ago: "This article is not about the hostel but is a WP:COATRACK used to discuss an instance of alleged racism. As such the article verges on a WP:ATTACK page." That it has stayed on Wiki so long reflects terribly on us. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 14:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Definitely coatrack. The incident itself is certainly notable but not encyclopedic. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: per Mattinbgn. Joe Chill (talk) 19:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, coatrack, the sooner it's deleted the better. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 22:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 23:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo Moon landing hoax accusers[edit]

Apollo Moon landing hoax accusers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This was proposed for merger a month ago, to no result. In practice it is being used as a content fork of the main article, Apollo Moon landing hoax conspiracy theories, which also has a list of accusers. The same material is largely repeated in both articles, so what's happening in practice is that this article gets the version where the hoax has been proven to be real. Mangoe (talk) 13:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• delete I am tired of asking for reliable sources. A page should show its own notability by having sources to support its notability, and this page showed none about the accusers being notable as a whole. Each individual accuser are quoted by their own primary sources and not secondary sources claiming them to be anything notable, most are actually liars(like Kaysing faking his own position as an Engineer when he got no such qualification) MythSearcher^talk 14:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete It's a content fork and lacks WP:RS to establish significance for several of the individuals. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Delete A pure WP:FRINGE WP:POVFORK being used to push poorly sourced (and obviously false) conspiracy theory "proofs". The sources used for each proponent fail WP:RS, and these people individually and as a group fail WP:GNG. It's being used as a WP:COATRACK for these proofs, which a user is trying to push links to from the parent article. Verbal chat 15:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Delete or Split - Delete as per above comments or split into a thousand articles each one breaking Wikipedia Policy in new and creative ways with multiple active/owner editors that complete ignore WP:N, WP:RS and WP:Fringe.--LexCorp (talk) 15:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge back into main hoax article. This article appears to have been started 2 1/2 years ago by a well-meaning user (and not a hoax believer at all) who probably figured the info in the main article was getting too large. Since the hoax story is largely demolished thanks to the LRO, we should begin to pare back the excess about this now-obsolete theory. The editor who created it has not edited since 2007, so we can't ask his opinion on the matter. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, agreeing with Quest and Verbal. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Conspiracy theories-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as per LexCorp RP459 (talk) 17:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, or merge but only if better sources can be found. Too many appear to be forums and blogs or inaccessible pseudo-scientific sites 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 17:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• IMPORTANT REMINDER If you delete this information, you will likely restart an edit war. I went through this twice already with this set of articles. I'm not going through it again. If you all want to foment and participate in that edit war, that's up to you. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it does, then that should be reviewed. We should not keep this kind of trash just because it "will...restart an edit war". Irbisgreif (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely. No appeasement of the edit warmongers! Favonian (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per A Quest For Knowledge,Verbal and LexCorp. Roughly 6% of Americans believe that the Apollo 11 moon landing was a hoax[13][14]. We could, of course, list them all, but then we would be playing right into the New World Order's hands, wouldn't we? Apollo Moon landing hoax conspiracy theories seems to cover the subject quite sufficiently and without any WP:POVFORKing. Let's keep the information there. — Rankiri (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That poll was from 1999 and US-only. More recent polls worldwide show between 20 and 40% support of the hoax hypothesis. --Лъчезар (talk) 07:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. No point in keeping this as a separate article. Favonian (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. POV fork that simply lists a bunch of WP:FRINGE proponents. The sourcing is atrocious. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Mild Keep Delete. I view it more as Wikipedia:Summary style than a content fork. It expands on the details in Apollo moon landing hoax conspiracy theories. Bubba73 (if u cn rd ths u cn go to my talk page), 05:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Change to delete - lacks secondary sources, most of the people are probably not notable individually. Merge anything useful. Bubba73 (if u cn rd ths u cn go to my talk page), 06:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. --07:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC) Merge back into the main hoax article by substituting the scarcer information there with the mode detailed information here. Of course there are problems with this article but these people are notable simply because they were bold to think with their own brains and dared to oppose the mainstream view. There are also scientists among them. Deleting the article would prove to the unbiased reader that there is censorship in Wikipedia (trying to silence inconvenient opinions), despite that it claims that it's not censored. --Лъчезар (talk) 07:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Verbal. It doesn't matter what nobodies think about the best achievement of the 60's, or Wikipedia. Nevard (talk) 08:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge into the main conspiracy theory article. This is all pretty much repetitive and unnecessary. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Per WP:HOAX, which states that notable hoaxes could be part of an article in Wikipedia. The hoaxes are clearly notable because of the mass amounts of information about them. And not having the neutral point of view is no concern. All it needs is a small rewrite. I've flagged this article for rescue. -- 科学高爾夫迷(讨论|投稿) 21:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Your argument seems to have no relevance to this article. For one, we're not discussing Apollo Moon landing hoax conspiracy theories and, secondly, WP:HOAX doesn't exactly cover non-notable POV forks of notable hoaxes. — Rankiri (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Forking is still acceptable if there's one very large topic and it would be better and easier to read and understand if it's divided into a few smaller topics. -- 科学高爾夫迷(讨论|投稿) 23:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The information is not the same. There is far more here. A brief mention of things in the main article, and far more detail here. For those who say merge, what information would be copied over there, that isn't already there? Is it the same as delete, or is there something that you believe should be added to the other page? Dream Focus 18:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• See WP:COATRACK. The article doesn't just list and discuss all notable Apollo Moon landing hoax accusers but tries to give their fringe and factually incorrect ideas undue weight. It appears to contain clear violations of NPOV. — Rankiri (talk) 18:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no WP:COATRACK here, i.e. no hidden agenda. The weight is due because the size of the article is 31836 bytes vs. 101207 bytes of the main hoax article, which is 100% anti-hoax. Thus the weight is 31836 / (31836 + 101207) = 24%. And this is just the average percentage of the hoax proponents worldwide (see recent polls - U.S. 20%, UK 25%, Russia 28%, Sweden 40%). So the weight is exactly what it's due and is not undue. --Лъчезар (talk) 07:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Firstly, there is an unmistakable coatrack issue here: see COATRACK#. Secondly, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. From WP:UNDUE: In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, the views may receive more attention and space. However, such pages should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. The article contains clear violations of this policy as it mostly describes the subject from the view of the accusers. Thirdly, do you have any actual evidence of these polls? According to ABC, the 1999 poll reflects the most recent data available[15]. Not that it matters under WP:FRINGE and CFORK#, which specifically prohibit unwarranted promotion of fringe theories and creation of consensus-dodging content. — Rankiri (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The polls are documented here, with sources. As to the "coatrack", if the article is about the accusers, it can't avoid talking about the accusations. And I disagree that the point of view here is non-neutral. But all right, it's all clear already that you're all trying to silence the heresy, Monsignori. --Лъчезар (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article should be anti-hoax, because that's the real-world consensus. That's really all there is to it. Mangoe (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Specifically which part seems to be undue weight? It seems to me they list exactly what the person says, their background, and then pokes holes in their accusations. That's how it should do it. These people are all notable, some having articles of their own even. Its good to keep them all here. Dream Focus 16:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Here are some extremely rough figures:

Bill Kaysing: 2.5KB of accusations, 0.6KB of rebuttals

Bart Sibrel: 1.5KB of accusations, 0.7KB of rebuttals

Stanislav Pokrovsky: 2KB of accusations, 0KB of rebuttals

Alexander Popov: 1.2KB of accusations, 0KB of rebuttals

William Brian: 0.5KB of accusations, 0KB of rebuttals

David Percy: 0.3KB of accusations, 0KB of rebuttals

Self-published books, self-proclaimed doctors of physical-mathematical sciences, criticized Fox News documentaries, Swedish tabloids... Did I really have to do your homework for you? — Rankiri (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Its the content that matters, not the size. If it takes longer to list the ridiculous claims and who the person is and the name of the books they've published, than it does to point out errors in their arguments, then so be it. That is not a reason to claim undue weight. And yes, you do need to do some work to explain why you believe something is undue weight, when you claim that in an argument. Those who don't have a rebuttal, have their accusations disproved by previous rebuttals, or the article just has room to improve, new things added. Tag that section with undue weight. When their only claim of a hoax is that the rocket couldn't possible work, and the previous rebuttal was that those same rockets were used to put satellites into orbit just fine so obviously they did, then you don't really need to repeat the same thing. Perhaps a summary after it listing all those who had the same arguments, and the most obvious way to debunk them. Dream Focus 18:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Please tell me how it is possible for a number of sections not to list any rebuttals to the severely misguided and unscientific views on the authors and still not be in direct violation of the following WP:UNDUE statement: each Wikipedia article and other content must be written from a neutral point of view, by representing all significant views on each topic fairly, proportionately, and without bias. I would also like to know how an article that's supposed to cover biographies of all major proponents of the Moon landing conspiracy theories can devote less than a third of its space to discussing its nominal subject, leave the rest on discussing the theory itself, and still not be seen as a clear-cut transgression of WP:Fringe, WP:CFORK and WP:Coatrack. — Rankiri (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Also wp:REDFLAG. Bubba73 (talk), 23:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @163  ·  02:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Armor Battle (Mattel/INTV)[edit]

Armor Battle (Mattel/INTV) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

It is proposed that this article be redirected to List of Intellivision games. The same editor has contributed loads of similar "articles". If I knew how, I would nominate them collectively for similar action, or something more drastic. Favonian (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete all. No need for merge as there is nothing to merge! None of the articles say anything more than the list. The JPS^{talk to me} 11:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. This has extremely little content. I'll change my vote if notability is asserted and the article is expanded as is fit for an article about a notable game. This is nearly worthless as it is right now. Kotiwalo (talk) 12:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. In view of the fact that the "siblings" of the above-mentioned article have meanwhile been speedily deleted, I alter my own nomination. Favonian (talk) 12:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Subject matter appears non-notable. --TreyGeek (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete without prejudice. A legitimate article could be written at Armor Battle, but it wouldn't be at this title, and the subsubstub and nonreference here won't help with it. No lack of sources, despite the game's age. —Korath (Talk) 21:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 23:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ZeiraCorp[edit]

ZeiraCorp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete - no reliable sources establish any notability for this fictional company. Otto4711 (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Delete - The franchise this fictional company is part of has quite a large cultural impact but there's nothing to say how this particular facet of the story influences the Terminator's real world impact. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• delete Inappropriate. Jack Merridew 04:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to the TV series article, as ZeiraCorp is central to the second season. 76.66.192.64 (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, total absence of any other usage of this term means it will be a clean redirect once merged. Abductive (talk) 07:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. Artemis84 (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge as last resort standard fictional entry that is verifiable and notable, its seems too big to merge into the main article. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Richard Arthur Norton makes a convincing point. It seems like a standard fictional entry, and it is verifiable, and a notable aspect of the notable series. You gain nothing by destroying it, the wikipedia isn't running out of space. Dream Focus 10:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge as last resort pretty major plot theme for the show, and article is getting pretty hefty as is. There should be some commentary that might come from some print media not available online. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The article consists solely of plot supported only by primary sources (and one second-hand). Furthermore, reading the "references" section finds a collection of original research and editor interpretation. Fails the Verifiability policy, the general Notability guideline, and the policy on No original research. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 06:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Withdrawn at the point we find some reliable source outside of a mere mention by someone parroting the whole Terminator franchise. Not every random corporation referenced in a work of fiction, even if popular, is notable. Shadowjams (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @163  ·  02:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stand up and be counted[edit]

Stand up and be counted (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about unremarkable song where the lyrics are present in their entirety. [mad pierrot][t c] 08:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete-Wikipedia is not the place to host lyrics, also article may have been created for the sole purpose of promoting a view point. [mad pierrot][t c] 08:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak delete. I agree with what you said about the lyrics, but if this song is notable, the article could be cleaned and kept, provided that it is done without POV or original research. Kotiwalo (talk) 08:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Delete If reliable sources can be found to indicate notability I would say keep, but I couldn't find anything. If sources were found it would still need some major cleanup though. Jujutacular ^talk_contribs 11:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong delete unsourced pov article on song with no indication of notability. Where is the speedy for this stuff rubbish? Duffbeerforme (talk) 14:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After this rubbish is deleted this would be a good redirect to an article on the Warumpi Band song Blackfella/Whitefella (a clearly notable song that deserves it's own article). Duffbeerforme (talk) 14:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I do agree that the article should be deleted please be civil, as the article has been created in good faith (at least I suppose so) calling it rubbish may insult and hurt the original contributor. Kotiwalo (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: per Mad Pierrot. Joe Chill (talk) 18:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I can't find any evidence that this song is notable. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Authored by basically a WP:SPA(only edited this article and added a link to it in another one), with no references and no assertion of notability except saying "it's popular". Could cite WP:SOAPBOX as well. At the risk of being lectured about WP:OR, I'm white, patriotic and lived in the South my whole life. If it's so damn popular, why have I never heard of it? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 00:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The West Wing presidential election, 1998[edit]

The West Wing presidential election, 1998 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I am also nominating the following related pages:

The West Wing presidential election, 2002 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The West Wing presidential election, 2006 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

information is completely in-universe and doesn't conform to WP:PLOT and In-universe policies. This is better served in a small episode summary on a list of episodes page. Notability is also questioned where this warrants its own article - its merely one section of a fictional television show. Ejfetters (talk) 07:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge all together into fictional elections from "The West Wing" (TV series) or somesuch. Note that the election with Matt Santos has real world currency, since it was frequently noted in comparison to the election of Obama. 76.66.192.64 (talk) 09:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Okay, you are telling me that we have an article about a fake election on wikipedia. What next, an article about all the times films have said Arnold Schwarzenegger became president, or better yet an article about the future election of him, because we all know it is possible. We've had a black man, a dumb redneck, a film star, etc. Why not amend the constitution and allow The Governator in the White House. All I see in the article are primary sources, weak content, the lack thereof as well, etc. I could see this being mentionable because The West Wing was a popular TV show, and if third party sources became available then the content of all the elections could be merged into one article about all the elections on the show. Until that time comes, I remain firm on deleting.--WillC 10:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete 1998 and 2002; no real-world connections, entirely original research about in-universe details. The 2006 article contains one paragraph that appears to show some real-world notability, but is in urgent need of cleanup (read: a reduction in size and level of detail by at least 80%). Kusma (talk) 11:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, one paragraph hardly is enough to base an entire article on, and removing everything except that paragraph will leave little information, and better suited to be placed in the episode summary perhaps, or a link for the episode itself. I'm not saying merge these to the episode articles, then they would still not conform to WP:PLOT. Ejfetters (talk) 08:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Why are we treating this topic like it's real? These are basically just articles about the plot arc for some episodes, nothing more. I don't know how this withstood 2 AfDs in the first place. It violates WP:NOTE, WP:WAF, WP:NOR, and WP:PLOT.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Both of these could have, and should have been entitled "West Wing Season 1" and "West Wing Season 4", etc., and if someone elects to move them to that, I would change my !vote. But I think it's disgusting to see these mentioned in Category: United States presidential elections (and I'm going to remove the tag). Since these fictional campaigns and elections took place in the course of a TV season, the minutiae and trivia can be taken care of there. Mandsford (talk) 14:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Delete: Non-notable fictional elections. Joe Chill (talk) 18:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete 1998 & 2002 I'm very sad to see the article go, but it does not conform to standards: it has no assertion of notability or relevance. Moreover due to the limited information there is about the election most of the article is guess work and specularion. C mon (talk) 07:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there is a West Wing wiki, i don't know if there is, someone could take these articles and the informatino there where they are better suited. Ejfetters (talk) 08:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There actually is a west wing wiki. C mon (talk) 06:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thats cool, the material can be saved then. Take it to the wiki. Ejfetters (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete unnecessary regurgitation of plot. --EEMIV (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep 2006 if it can be reworked to focus more on the "parallels to to 2008" as that was significantly hyped up by the media in the run up to the '08 election. Bigvinu (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tend to agree that 2006 is a special case. Here links are provided to external sources which support the notability of this fictional event. C mon (talk) 06:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it would be better merged into the articke for the 2008 election. It is based upon a fictional election here and would be better made available in that article and a section in the West Wing article. Ejfetters (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. —Sean Whitton / 13:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shona Holmes[edit]

Shona Holmes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This person doesn't deserve to have her own page. She isn't notably in any way and should either be deleted or merged into the Health care reform in the United States. I feel we should just delete this article Fire 55 (talk) 07:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge with Health care reform in the United States. Don't think it deserves its own article but should be mentioned. Jujutacular ^talk_contribs 11:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment -- Here is a reference I found today, to an article about Palmira Holmes, a fellow resident of the town were Shona Holmes lived, who has been inundated with calls from other Canadians outraged over Shona's apparent betrayal of Canada. A wikipedia article about Palmira Holmes would be a BLP1E. But Shona Holmes has multiple claims to notability, beyond her appearance in the ad: (1) there is the discussion over the credibility of her claim; (2) there is the strength of the feeling of betrayal from ordinary Canadians; (3) there are the comments in reaction from senior Canadian political leaders; (4) there is the Democrats Abroad counter-reaction. Geo Swan (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Carmela Fragomeni (2009-07-23). "You have the wrong S. Holmes". Hamilton Spectator. Retrieved 2009-07-25. Palmira Holmes has been inundated with phone calls from people trying to express their fury over Shona Holmes' decision to become the face of an aggressive American TV ad that slams Canadian-style health care.
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment -- If, for the sake of argument, there was a strong argument for merging this article into another article, why would we merge it into Health care reform in the United States, as opposed to:

• Canadian health care system -- Holmes is, after all, a Canadian...
• Canadian and American health care compared -- her youtube video is, after all, part of a comparison of the two systems...

It seems to me that when there are multiple potential targets for a merge and redirection that is a very strong counter-argument to merging, it is a very strong argument that the topic of the article is of sufficient notability that it should remain a stand-alone article, and should not be merged. Geo Swan (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Rememeber someone isn't notable because shes in the news as this link explans. The only reason why see is getting this coverage is because of the health care reform in the US and therefore either deserves to be deleted or linked to their. She is a part of the debate on health card reform and that's where the info belongs.--Fire 55 (talk) 21:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because what she's "notable" for is an advertisement which aired in the United States pertaining to a debate about American health care reform. Bearcat (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep -- for the reasons I offered above. Geo Swan (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - As per WP:BIO1E Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. WP:BLP1E. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Not notable and the ad she was in has more to do with Patients United Now's efforts to block/direct U.S. health care reform than her specifically. --Ctbwiki (talk) 14:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Certainly worth mentioning somewhere, but essentially a WP:BLP1E. The debate she's a part of is notable, but that doesn't mean that she is — which is proven by the fact that this article is almost entirely about the advertisement she filmed, and contains almost no biographical information whatsoever. Perhaps an article about the advertising campaign itself might be in order — but absent other proof of notability, we don't particularly need an article about her. Merge to an appropriate target or delete. Bearcat (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Excuse me, you refer to just a single debate. But surely there are multiple debates?
• Comment May I remind everyone that the wikipedia is not solely an American project? There is a separate, different debate triggered by Holmes claims up here in Canada. Geo Swan (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Her

• Keep -- What makes wikipedia useful is that when, in a debate with some fox news viewers, this woman I've never heard of before is mentioned, I can get a quick summary of the facts from a source that I can trust. Keep, keep, keep. --69.134.163.9 (talk) 01:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment' The ip users comment is very fishy since not only was it the persons first edit, but only seconds after Geo Swans. Second if you are getting facts from wikipedia and you trust it you need to really look at wikipedia again because no university will accept facts from wikipedia. Nevertheless the fact that you are in the news DOES NOT mean you get an article. Which you can't seem to get Geo Swan. Please read this again WP:BLP1E. Holmes is only getting coverage because of the fact there is a health care reform in US. --Fire 55 (talk) 02:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you accusing me of being a sockpuppet master? In my five years of contributing to the wikipedia I have faced three or four irresponsible and unsubstantiated accusations that I am a sockpuppet or sockpuppet master. But I declare this is the the one with slimmest justification. Geo Swan (talk) 03:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's the fact that the comment by the person is just stupid. I said it was fishy I didn't accuse you. First, it's really fishy that a persons first edit is on a deletion debate. Which more ip user don't even do let alone the first edit they make. Either way this page is going to get deleted because the people that know wikipedia guidelines agree with me.--Fire 55 (talk) 04:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Have you ever heard of reverse DNS? In the interests of your credibility you might consider using it before you accuse anyone else of sockpuppetry. Geo Swan (talk) 05:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have you heard of proxy servers. I bet you have. I'll come back with a message that says I'm from Japan then from one in France.--Fire 55 (talk) 06:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• (1) Please don't call other contributors stupid. Doing so never helps cultivates reasoned civil discussion. 2 You called the IP post "fishy" because it came "seconds" after mine. It came eight minutes after mine. That is 480 seconds. Geo Swan (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never called anyone stupid. You purposely are putting words in my mouth (this is the second time). I said the comment was stupid and I have every right to say that a comment someone made is stupid.--Fire 55 (talk) 12:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Nominator claims: "Holmes is only getting coverage because of the fact there is a health care reform in US." But, if that were true, why is it the following articles which discuss her precedent setting court case don't mention the US health care debate?
  • Tanya Talaga (2007-09-06). "Patients suing province over wait times: Man, woman who couldn't get quick treatment travelled to U.S. to get brain tumours removed". Toronto Star. Retrieved 2009-07-27.
  • Sam Solomon (2007-09-30). "New lawsuit threatens Ontario private care ban: "Ontario Chaoulli" case seeks to catalyze healthcare reform". Vol. 4, no. 16. National Review of Medicine. Retrieved 2009-07-27.
  • "Auditor says Ontario should post wait times for every surgeon". CBC News. 2008-10-08. Retrieved 2009-07-27.
  • Kevin Gaudet (2007-12-01). "Patients Sue for Private Health Insurance in Ontario". Canadian Free Press. Retrieved 2009-07-27.

TY Geo Swan (next time sign your posts) you still don't get it. YOU DON'T get an article if you are in the news. These stories are middle in the newspaper articles not the front page stuff she's getting because of her ad. If see is so important why did you create the article years after these stories. BECAUSE OF HER AD.--Fire 55 (talk) 06:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Fire 55, here on the wikipedia we are supposed to reach decisions through cool, meaningful, collegial, civil discussion. This means that those who comply with the wikipedia's civility policies do their best to actually read what the other person wrote. They do their best to confine their comments to editorial matters. I read what you wrote, blp1e, blp1e, blp1e. Could you please show me the courtesy of trying to actually read what I wrote before you respond? The four references I cited above date to 2007 and 2008 -- over a year before she appeared in the US ad. As I pointed out above those references were to her lawsuit against the government of Ontario. I suggest this is a separate event from the US ad, by any reasonable measure. Geo Swan (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Since you still don't get it I'll quote the page "Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them."--Fire 55 (talk) 23:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• She is not notable; the events are: WP:BLP1E. Either merge to an appropriate article or delete. DoubleBlue (talk) 06:10, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Obvious BLP1E. Besides, the article doesn't even make any effort to assert her (nonexistent) notability. 195.14.197.53 (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rename. The case is now sufficiently notable that the public has a right to a balanced account. That being said, this is only a small part of this woman's life and an article under her name would be problematic for all the reasons mentioned above. I suggest renaming the article something like "The Holmes-Advertisement Controversy". (Perhaps someone can find a better title, ideally one that doesn't use her name, though the fact that Holmes is not this woman's professional name may mitigate that problem.) Bucketsofg 00:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, but rename, per Buck's reasoning. If she has a nasty divorce, it doesn't belong in here...make the article more clearly about the advertisement and her medical context. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 04:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep-or-Rename: She appears on Fox TV, Mayo has edited her Patient Story, she's been mentioned in the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the Vancouver Sun, the Canadian Press, the Halifax Chronicle Herald, Bloomberg, the Calgary Herald, the Ottawa Citizen, Fox Business, The Guardian (.co.uk). It might be "one event" but the clear response to "one event" is rename, not delete. - BalthCat (talk) 00:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note to potential closing administrator -- since those who voiced a delete opinion, based on BLP1E, mainly did so before the article was expanded, and generally haven't returned here, to meaningfully address the counter-arguments, I'd like to request their opinions be discounted, because this is supposed to be a discussion -- not a vote. These ((afd)) are supposed to be discussions where there is a meaningful exchange of views. I am going to suggest this article be relisted, to get the opinions of individuals who have read the article in its current state. Geo Swan (talk) 15:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I have seen the changes and as can only be expected it is still only about the event not her. DoubleBlue (talk) 05:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention the fact the article doesn't even mention where she was born, her birthdate, or even her age. Even if you google them you get nothing. No one knows or cares because she's not notable.--Fire 55 (talk) 12:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to somewhere appropriate. This woman is a pawn in the healthcare debate, she is not personally notable. Sueing over medical treatment does not make someone worthy of an encyclopedia entry. Fences&Windows 02:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.