The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 23:28, 10 July 2011 [1].

Indian Head eagle[edit]

Indian Head eagle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I think it meets the criteria. The sixth in a projected ten article series about the Great Recoinage of U.S. coins between 1907 and 1921, we return to the initial battles which we saw in Saint-Gaudens double eagle between sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens, Mint Chief Engraver Charles E. Barber and President Theodore Roosevelt, who went so far as to threaten Barber with decapitation (a certain appropriateness there, what with Barber's cutting name). Since it covers the same time period as the double eagle article, I went to some effort to not use the same quotes or images (excepting one) which are used in the double eagle article. This has passed GA and received a PR. Enjoy it. Wehwalt (talk) 15:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:26, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

While it is not required, I prefer to do it, as who knows what Google will do tomorrow. Thank you for the check, I will fix the items you mentioned.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Support – I peer reviewed this article and such very small quibbles as I had have been addressed. I leave comment about the images to those who police such matters, but in all other regards, this article seems to me to meet every FA criterion. Interesting even for those of us to whom numismatics is a closed book. The article is a credit to Wehwalt and will be a credit to Wikpedia. – Tim riley (talk) 16:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image Review - Just about everything checks out from a copyright standpoint, my only concern is that the name of the source publication for File:High relief eagle.png isn't actually listed, it just says there is one. I'm also really not sure why we need the two mint medals of the directors, the image quality isn't too great and the images themselves seem superfluous. Finally, File:Pt eagle.png looks artificially enlarged, so I'm going back to the source and doing it over. Sven Manguard Wha? 20:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pt eagle.png handled. Sven Manguard Wha? 20:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The source was in there but it was lower case and not italicized, my apologies. I was only going to have the one mint medal (Preston) but both of my photographic images of Roberts are left-facing and I needed an image that would work on the left. If the quality is poor, I can rescan them, though I won't be home for a couple of weeks. Thanks for working on the image.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The two mind medals look blurry, most noticeably on the edge lettering, with Roberts being especially bad. Either the scanner moved while it was being scanned or the image itself was artificially enlarged too much. Everything left of Roberts' ear is pixelated heavily, especially the back of his coat across from the GE of George. I don't know what the answer is, I don't want to hold this for weeks at a time. Being that they look fine in the article itself, I suppose it's okay to let it go until you can do a rescan, and not let it choke up the review. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, probably has to do with the high relief of Mint medals. I may go back to using a camera on them, as I have a small collection of about ten Mint directors and one Secretary of the Treasury.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for telling me about the new images Wehwalt. The wire rim checks out iff it really has no copyright notice. I would have no way of knowing since its not online, but if there's no notice, there's no notice. If there is a copyright notice buried somewhere, then we get into the discussion I had about the other coin at FAC now; which is that the image itself does not qualify for copyright because it doesn't meet the threshold for originality that US law requires. Sven Manguard Wha? 19:20, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As I thought. All these materials are in a public archive, they are open 1030 to 5, or if you called the librarian, it could be verified that way. Not saying you're going to do it, but it is verifiable. I probably wound up with about three hundred coin images that if I had the patience to upload all of them would have similar license tags. Kagin's, Steve Ivy, and MTB were the offenders who did not copyright their work! Very pleased, I put in a hard two days work there. I should be able to replace many of the images on wiki of coins that have defective copyrights.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

SupportLeaning to support: I have a few minor issues with this otherwise characteristically informative coin article:-

Lead
Inception
No, on the first, they had different designers, yes on the second.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Longer, I think. This is always a pain to explain, which is why I put the quote from the law in the dime article. Once you are in the 25th year, you can replace the design. You don't even have to strike coins in the 25th year, the Mint had no intention in 1916 of striking any Barber pieces, though they eventually had to with a silver shortage and delayed designs.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Preparations
That is per source, but I will work for a better phrasing.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Design
Perhaps "with"?--Wehwalt (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Release and production
Collecting
I would have, but with a year following, I think you will agree that "forty 1933 eagles" is better than "40 1933 eagles".--Wehwalt (talk) 01:37, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I see no difficulties resolving these and look forward to fully supporting. Brianboulton (talk) 23:24, 28 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All those things are done, with slight variations, except as noted above. If I missed anything, please let me know.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:37, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm happy with these responses (I think I understand what a "collar" is, now). Brianboulton (talk) 22:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Strong oppose Support Tony (talk) 03:05, 3 July 2011 (UTC) —1a, MoS, referencing.Reply[reply]

I haven't looked beyond the lead. I'm surprised to find so much to discuss in so short a text that was written by an expert in the topic, and a prolific FA writer for whom I have a deal of respect. Tony (talk) 14:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Extended discussion moved to talk. Summary: Wehwalt has made some changes in response to Tony1's points; Tony1 wants him to either make all requested changes or provide reasoning for not doing so. Tony1 also requests that SandyGeorgia recuse as delegate on this FAC. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've responded there, informing Tony that his comment was so offensive he is conflicted out from reviewing the article, and has no right or interest to demand a delegate recuse.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In addition, Raul has now expressed on his talk page his confidence in Sandy's ability in this matter. That ends it.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Self-serving twaddle. You need to address the review points in good faith. I've changed to "Strong oppose", and will scrutinise the article now beyond the lead. There is no way that SandyGeorgia could do anything but recuse from this nom: she has prejudiced herself on my talk page and elsewhere. Tony (talk) 05:08, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Reply. I believe that all of the points Tony raised above have now been addressed with the exception of one with which I don't agree:
  • "New pieces were given to the President on August 31, which differ from the coins struck later for circulation.". I think that "differ" rather than the suggested "differed" is correct, as the coins still exist and still differ. Malleus Fatuorum 17:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support on criterion 1a but with some minor concerns:

Thank you for another engaging contribution in this series. I might want to add a few more nitpicks following a second reading, but I do not see any reason to not support this. Well done. Graham Colm (talk) 23:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are welcome. I will try to get to your comments as soon as I can. Frankly it isn't easy right now.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those things are now done.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As Sandy has asked me to at least consider Tony's comments, I made several changes, where the points seemed to me to be valid. Where they seemed to me to be merely stylistic (I prefer to have numbers spelled out when MOS allows me to do so, as it does in this case: "five hundred" is three syllables) matters of word choice, and I felt my choice was as valid or superior, I have ignored them.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:08, 1 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sandy is headed towards a very bad place. "asked me to at least consider Tony's comments": no, you need to address the comments in exactly the way you do for other reviews. I see no explanations, no evidence, here. The Strong oppose stays until you stop this nonsense, abetted, apparently, by SandyGeorgia. Tony (talk) 03:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support. I think that all the valid points raised by Tony have been addressed either by Wehwalt or by me. Malleus Fatuorum 17:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for your review and your support.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Malleus, you're being Wehwalt's servant, are you? But this corrupt system will still encourage Wehwalt to aggressively assert ownership over the article, in breach of the Pillars. Why does Saint-Gaudens double eagle open with "twenty-dollar gold coin", but the hyphens are missing from this article? I've already pointed out this issue. It seems to be the only matter outstanding. Tony (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You had, as I understand it, asked for it to be consistent, so I removed all hyphens. Fine, I'll put a hyphen in all three.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tony, I not infrequently try to make helpful edits to FACs, but it's the first time I've been called a servant for doing it. Are you suggesting that the article should be allowed to fail because a few hyphens are missing? I've made quite a few edits to this article before today in fact, and Wehwalt has never exhibited any signs of ownership as a result. I can only go by what I see. Malleus Fatuorum 02:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Good, well let's fix the problem at the opening, so this article is consistent with the others of this topic that Wehwalt owns. Tony (talk) 02:38, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think it's fixed now isn't it? Malleus Fatuorum 02:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, thanks. Tony (talk) 03:05, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hardly owns; RHM22 has done major work in the area. Thank you both for your work and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I am not totally convinced by the first one, do you feel that a semicolon is the way to go there? The others I'll get to tomorrow, I've been spending a hard day on research and would prefer to get some sleep, hope you don't mind.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I still think a comma is better, however, I do not consider this a big deal, and am happy to consult with other editors on this. "Superintendent" is properly lower case due to that comma (had there been no comma and all of that was grafted onto Norris's name as a title, then it would be capitalized. "Saint-Gaudens" is proper in referring to the design like that, for example Saint-Gaudens double eagle, the companion to this article. All others are done as per your suggestions. Thank you for your review.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:11, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. Will support after nitpick resolved =).--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Share–a–Power[citation needed] 11:07, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Taken care of.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many thanks for your thoughtful review.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments. Nice piece! Way more interesting than I thought it would be. HA! Both the content (personality and art) as well as the way you write it up. Kudos. I only skimmed it, so can't support or oppose. Just some surfacey thoughts, FWIW:

Once the coin is released, it usually ceases to make news, therefore there is not much to be said, excepting the design tweaks. If a coin runs a long time, like the Lincoln cent, there are things to discuss, if not, well, not. Eagles didn't really circulate that much anyway, they were used as reserves for gold certificates and in international trade transactions.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Always glad to hear new angles. I own the major bios on TR and I've been disappointed they don't talk about coins. The story isn't over yet, there was more conflict over the smaller gold coins ($2.50 and $5), which will be covered when I get to those coins.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not terribly. It is mostly discussions of each coin by date and mintmark, rarity, market discussions, sometimes auction results for the rare dates.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But that is the aspect of content that (I wonder if we) are light on. Could be the problem and the solution...;-) TCO (talk) 00:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The things I have said are the highlights out of such books that do individual treatments of the date and mintmarks. The thing is, for the general interest reader, it gets too technical, while for the collector, he doesn't want to hear it from us, he'll either have or review the books.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:20, 7 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I understand. I had started with an image of Roberts, but it's left facing, and as you may notice, almost all the images are left facing, even the birds! The Roberts medal is at least right-facing. BTW, inclusion of the medals serves a more serious purpose: it lets the reader see Barber's work, the only opportunity in this article.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Better than what was there until yesterday (you might want to check to see if what you saw is what is still there).--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, I was going off the old one.TCO (talk) 00:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm open to suggestions, but I don't have that kind of image talent.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I's have to read it to figure it out, but think about if you were giving a presentation at work using a Powerpoint. I suspect something like numbers produced per year per mint, and current valuation, etc. would be helpful in a table format. (maybe a bar or line chart, or even a pie). (I really think it would be good for you to take a hack at it, in terms of what content would be good. As far as making the image...MissMJ will do that for you, very well, if you just ask nicely.) Think of the kind of reader who will skip to those sections. Also that in general comparing numeric data is hard in sentences, but easier in tables or graphs (keep the sentences too, just give another way to absorb and process the info).TCO (talk) 00:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I hesitate to move anything!--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I favor "is", as well, but believe in not jumping up and down on the FAC just to see if it will break :)--Wehwalt (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If I ever get to photograph one from the side, I certainly will.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:20, 7 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Again, nice work and good luck! Peace...TCO (talk) 23:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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