The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Middle Ages[edit]

Middle Ages (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 20:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC); User:Johnbod; User:Eric Corbett[reply]

Well, this has been a labor of love. I'd like to nominate the vital article Middle Ages for featured article status because after almost two years of work, I believe it meets all the requirements of that status - it's comprehensive, focused, well written and probably the best short introduction to the very large topic on the web. When I first started working on it - it looked like this. 900 some edits later it's grown a bit but it's lost a lot of junk along the way. It IS long - 14,300+ words, but it's hard to condense it much more without losing the comprehensiveness - it's a very complex topic. But it's not THAT big ... there are a good number of other FAs that exceed it's length (158,502 bytes - putting it about 28th on Wikipedia:Featured articles/By length - below Byzantine Empire (which covers about the same time frame..)) I've had a lot of help with this - Johnbod wrote the art and architecture sections, which I would suck at, and I've had copyediting help from John and Malleus. Malleus, as usual, has gone way beyond the call of duty and I think has copyedited the whole thing three times, at least.

I present to you, one of the main historical periods, and arguably the formative one for the current world, Middle Ages. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Driveby
  • Fair enough. But I think some thing from Modern misconceptions should be there. That first sentence, for example, is an excellent encapsulation of what people think.
  • Couple more things:
  • Can we shorten that to "The period is subdivided into the Early, the High, and the Late Middle Ages."?
  • Why are the one-paragraph summaries of the three Ages in the lead so differently sized? Did the Late MA cover a shorter period than the other two?122.172.170.48 (talk) 12:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the Early MA was 450-1000 (550 years), the High was 1000-1300 (300 years), and the Late was 1300-1500 (200 years). Those are rough approximations, yes. It's more dictated by the length of the body text on each. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is correct, because there are two different uses; as an adjective—"an 11th-century vase"—and as a simple noun "vase from the 11th century". MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers at WP:CENTURY does not actually deal with this, though someone who thinks it does is busy removing all hyphens from articles. I don't have strong views but no longer use them myself; there may be inconsistency in the article? Johnbod (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    No, there isn't. The article is perfectly consistent. Malleus Fatuorum 04:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Elsewhere on that page: "Centuries are given in figures or words using adjectival hyphenation where appropriate: the 5th century BCE; nineteenth-century painting."122.172.168.44 (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Considering the scope and size of the article, there will always be points of contention about what to dis/include, how much attention to give certain subject etc. Considering all this, the article does a fine job of representing a significant epoch in European history. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Comments from MasterOfHisOwnDomain My hat off to everyone who has contributed to such a fine and worthy article. A real achievement. But a few things:[reply]

Low-impact driveby comment by Curly Turkey

You know, you wouldn't need to have all those ((nowrap))s transcluded if you used  . You seem to be using it only to keep the enumerated part of kings' etc. names, like "Emperor Thumbuphisbum XIV". Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A single ((nowrap)) requires fewer characters than two  's. But yeah, it's pointless for strings with a single space. Praemonitus (talk) 01:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Commments Support (User:Hchc2009)

Images and captions are now fine (comments moved to talk). Nikkimaria (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - maps. The Carolingian division maps in "Breakup of the Carolingian Empire" have an error:

One note I corrected a few American spellings in this a Euro-centric article. Might want to check and make sure spelling is consistent. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize that British English also uses -ized often. So I reverted my changes. LittleJerry (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On another note: Not a big deal but shouldn't the lead image be of something that the readers will instantly recognize as medieval, like a castle or knight's armor? LittleJerry (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
See the lengthy discussion on the talk page. Some people expect an image essentially from the last 150 years of this 1,000 yr + period, but the discussion supports this choice. Johnbod (talk) 01:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro1: I've read down to "Church and monasticism" so far. It's looking like something of a masterpiece to me at the moment. I can't fault it for content, and my comments are minor prose ones. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Having read to the end, I am happy to support. This is an outstanding piece of work, and a credit to all those involved. Aside from a few minor quibbles, I had and have no issues. I'm pretty familiar with the first two thirds of this period, and just a little less so with the third and I think it covers the whole period in impressive depth and thoroughness. The prose is top-notch. Great stuff. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support (Wehwalt) Excellent and comprehensive, a huge undertaking done well. This is not a field in which I am that knowledgeable beyond the basics, so most of this will be prose and formatting issues. A few quibbles, as you might expect me to do:

PedroPVZ

  • I respect the impressive work done here, really impressed actually. I think Portugal is consistently overlooked in the article, or arbitrarily placed in Spain, that redirects to the modern country. Also I still fail to see why the lead pic is the lead picture. So sentences also sound a bit POV especially in Modern misconceptions.
The Germans etc used the pfennig, and there was the Swedish penning, but I'm not sure how much these drew from Anglo-Saxon rather than Carolingian example. Johnbod (talk) 20:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It says "By 714, Islamic forces controlled much of the peninsula, a region they called Al-Andalus" which seems reasonable. Portugal as such did not exist at this point. Johnbod (talk) 20:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Cryptic C62 Having just gotten back on the wiki after a frantic period of real-life shenaniganry, I am delighted to see such an ambitious effort here at FAC. Kudos and thanks go to the nominators for their efforts thus far. Some nitpicks from the later sections of the article:

Now reads "The causes of the Great Famine included the slow transition from the Medieval Warm Period...." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Went with "disease that spread throughout Europe during the following three years." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To understand it, you'd have to have been a medieval peasant. Davies states "The psychological trauma ran deep. Though the CHurch as an institution was weakened, popular religosity increased. Charity foundations proliferated. Intense piety came into fashion: people felt that god's wrath must be placated. In Germany huge companies of flgellants flourished until suppressed on orders fro Avignon. Communal scapegoats were sought. In some places lepers were picked on; elsewhere the Jews were charged with poisoning the water. In September 1348 a trial of Jews at Chillon was supported by evidence extracted by torture. It was the signal for wholesale pogroms: in Basle, all the Jews were penned into wooden buildings and burned alive; similar scenes occurred in Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, and Dresden. Two thousand Jews were massacred in Strasbourg; in Mains as many as 12,000." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It continued to come back quite frequently, however. It was repetative, and it's important to note that it reappears throughout the rest of the period. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, but does the same piece of phrasing need to be used twice in one sentence? Surely there must be alternatives to "throughout the rest of the". What's wrong with "later in the"? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Throughout implies more than once during the period... "later in" implies only once. Let's try "Conditions were further unsettled by the return of the plague throughout the rest of the 14th century; it continued to strike Europe periodically during the rest of the Middle Ages." Ealdgyth - Talk 19:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now reads "Most peasants in Western Europe managed to change the work they had previously owed to their landlords into cash rents." which is hopefully clearer. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've gone with "Early in the war the English under ..." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's the correct link, however. HRE lasts until Napoleon. The "German Empire" is actually Bismarkian, when Germany finally united in 1871 (I may have the date wrongish). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't mean to suggest that the link was incorrect. What I meant to say was that it is unclear where the link goes until one actually clicks on it. I would suggest spelling out "Holy Roman Empire" in its entirety to avoid confusion. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But it's not called the "Holy Roman Empire" until later in its history. In this period, it's just "the Empire" or (sometimes) "the German Empire". Ealdgyth - Talk 19:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yea, he's 1600s. There really isn't an "example" ... so many folks think Galileo was medieval that that's the example they'll give. The whole period is full of popular misconceptions. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. It's still often taught in grade schools here in the states, even. I had to ... err... get medieval on my son's teacher one year when she tried to teach them that in social studies class. It wasn't pretty, but I won. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Graham Colm

This one I found odd for other reasons

Graham Colm (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have added my support. A few wrinkles remain, but a steam iron will not be required. Graham Colm (talk) 21:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any remaining wrinkles are down to me not being careful enough when reading through the article, but hopefully we're getting there. Eric Corbett 22:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Partial comments from Espresso Addict As a complete ignoramus on the topic, so far I've found the article pretty readable and comprehensible, and well illustrated -- bravo!

I disagree. This is a beautiful image, which is perfect for this article. Please do not change it. Graham Colm (talk) 21:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again, As a traded product, pottery is much more complex than basic commodities, if only because you have find designs that distant markets like. Johnbod (talk) 14:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The vast majority of over 850 archived copies of letters from Pope Gregory the Great (pope 590–604) concerned affairs in Italy or Constantinople." -loses several words and 4 commas! Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it does in fact. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will try to read the remainder later. Espresso Addict (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's exciting to see an article like this at FAC.

I think so, as a defined period, like Early Modern Period or "the Neolithic". Not when used as a adjective. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
should all be "R" in my book Johnbod (talk) 15:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, now fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 16:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit fiddly, but in A-S society inheritance of the crown by the next male (let alone female) heir was usually not automatic, & boys tended to get shoved aside by their uncles etc. So no queen mothers in a regent-type role. But top-drawer ladies could be very powerful as abbesses of a distinctive A-S type of paired convents and monasteries *(we must have a link for these), where the abbess was usually top dog. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's talking about modern archeology. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps best cut, but they were still sort of supposed to be part of the same Frankish polity. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've cut the "civil" here. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is this bad though? Does it destroy the prose or make things unclear? Sometimes I think we pursue "consistency" too much at the price of prose or clarity. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One of those areas where I can only go into so much detail before we bog things down. If I don't mention this, though, I'm not being complete. Suggestions on any "short" additions that could clarify? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Linking shock troops and possibly clarifying why they weren't useful as them would help. J Milburn (talk) 17:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Linked now and reads "During the early invasion period, the stirrup had not been introduced into warfare, which limited the usefulness of cavalry as shock troops because it was not possible to put the full force of the horse and rider behind blows struck by the rider." and I cut the bit about the saddle being built up as unneeded detail. Better? Ealdgyth - Talk 18:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Much clearer. J Milburn (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've read half-way down the article, and it's looking great so far. I'll be sure to finish the review later. J Milburn (talk) 15:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Continuing my reading-[reply]

Very well written- seems to be a fantastic summary. J Milburn (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree re Scotland. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gulp! Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think so, honestly. The actual interactions between Europe and the Far East or Africa are pretty minimal - they mainly relate to the actual Middle East rather than the Far East. It's a pretty insular period. And the poor article is already huge! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I shall deal with the rest of these (which are generally quite useful) tomorrow sometime. I've got a plant sale to go to wayyyyy too early in the morning. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from the Duke of Waltham: I see I'm not too late to the party... Huge article, and it took me a while to find the time to read it properly, though you have little reason to care about that because I do not intend to support: I reiterate my view that, until I have submitted a FAC of my own, I cannot in good conscience vote on one. What I can do is provide yet another pair of eyes to comb through the prose, and I have found a few issues, which generally range from minor to negligible. (Actually, they turned out to be far more numerous than I expected, so apologies for posting this exhaustive list of minutiae so late in the process.) I have already made several minor style corrections—with this edit—so please don't think that I have brought up every stray comma, dash and hyphen here.

The article itself was beautiful—I simply cannot praise it enough. I was particularly excited to read the introduction, as I always am with high-quality, broad-scope articles; indeed, I find that few experiences in Wikipedia can be compared with reading a well-written lead on an important, well-known subject. (My vote of confidence for the impressive lead image, by the way.)

So, here we go:

Not a literary flourish, & not exactly an error that I can see. Sutton Hoo is a burial, but the others are just hoards so they need their own list. Would "and hoards such as those of ..." help? Any suggestions welcome. Johnbod (talk) 13:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I failed to notice the use of "hoards", which made me think there was something wrong with the sentence. I no longer think any change is needed here. Waltham, The Duke of 02:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; no but they are probably the most numerous survivals; ho-hum arguably (but I'm not trying to argue so). Not entirely sure I see the problem here; obviously I'm trying to cram a complex picture into a short phrase. Is "popular option" any help? One could add to or qualify "reliquaries and crosses" I suppose, at the risk of padding. Johnbod (talk) 13:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Simply mentioning that Limoges enamel was an option (one of many) poses the question of why this specific method is mentioned here; indeed, it seems to assume that the method is familiar to the general reader, who would therefore be aware of its importance. On the other hand, saying that the method was popular or otherwise notable makes it clear to the reader why it is mentioned in the passage. Side-stepping the grammar issue at the same time, one could write "Metalwork continued to be the most prestigious form of art, and Limoges enamel was a popular option for reliquaries and crosses." If it was really popular, one might place more emphasis and use a semi-colon, followed by "Limoges enamel, in particular, was a popular option for reliquaries and crosses." Other options might be available; I am not the expert on either the subject or the capabilities of the English language, to be honest. Waltham, The Duke of 02:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone with "with Limoges enamel a popular and relatively affordable option for objects such as reliquaries and crosses" - the cheapness was a key element in its popularity. Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Its inclusion makes more sense now, thanks. Waltham, The Duke of 16:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Erm, take your time... I am not objecting, after all, so you don't actually need to adopt any of my suggestions. I do intend to return for follow-up comments, though, should they be required. Waltham, The Duke of 04:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: the lead says that "the Carolingian Empire endured until the 9th century, when it succumbed to the pressures of invasion", but the article seems to place more importance on the various civil wars that weakened and divided the empire. I realise there isn't much room for manoeuvres in the lead, but the emphasis on this point doesn't seem entirely consistent with that given in the article. Perhaps I'm missing something. Waltham, The Duke of 02:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've reworked to "the Carolingian Empire endured until the 9th century, when it succumbed to the pressures of internal civil wars combined with external invasions—Vikings from the north, Magyars from the east, and Saracens from the south." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Kudos for taking on such a huge topic; the article has markedly improved, and you've managed to keep it relatively concise. I don't have time to read through it thoroughly, but I found myself missing a reference to the influence of the Islamic world on medieval science. Could you add a sentence or two to "Rise of Islam" or "Intellectual life", possibly drawing on the sources in Science in the Middle Ages or Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe? Lesgles (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've roughly covered topics in the amount they are covered in a number of overview histories - the best place to delve into the whole concept of whether or not Islamic learning influenced medieval European science is probably in those more specialized articles. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that there already is something about the influences - "Among the results of the Greek and Islamic influence on this period in European history was the replacement of Roman numerals with the decimal positional number system and the invention of algebra, which allowed more advanced mathematics. Astronomy advanced following the translation of Ptolemy's Almagest from Greek into Latin in the late 12th century. Medicine was also studied, especially in southern Italy, where Islamic medicine influenced the school at Salerno." is right there in intellectual life. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I didn't see those sentences, and that somewhat resolves my worry that Islam might come across as no more than a conquering antagonist. I would be even happier, though if there were a brief mention of Averroes and Aristotle, of translations from Arabic, or the cultural life of Al-Andalus. From your sources, for instance, see Davies pp. 253–54, 349 or Oxford History of Medieval Europe, pp. 194–95. That's up to you, though. Lesgles (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More comments

Most of these are minor comments, but I hope you especially consider the second point. The bracketed date ranges have a jarring appearance, and introduce an unnecessary level of detail for such a broad article.122.172.22.100 (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is some coverage at various points, especially the para beginning "The development of a three-field rotation system for planting crops...". As those links show, there isn't much happening in medieval agricultural practice beyond the slow tweaking of Roman techniques, at least until right at the end. Medieval historians are, or used to be, obsessional about land tenure & agricultural economics & all that, which the article rightly treats pretty swiftly, but what and how things were grown receives relatively little attention. Perhaps a few points could be added. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • More about fashion would be good too — I especially like the detail about the development of buttons during the period. The article currently seems to say nothing about sumptuary law, which was developed during the period to restrain the middle class. Such laws governed not only clothing but food too. Note that social history is emphasised in education now and so we should give due weight to this. Warden (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look. I'm going to repeat myself. This is an overview article. We can't possibly cover every single subject that happened during the Middle Ages. We're already pushing the limits on word count here... I'm trying to keep it within what the major secondary sources cover in overview articles. (As an aside - using the term "middle class" for the Middle Ages is a bit of an anachronism - it implies that there existed something like a modern middle class, which isn't the case. Nor are sumptuary laws "developed" in the Middle Ages - they existed long before this period.) The article is 14,500 or so words. There are going to have to be points that are referred to in just links and seealsos - and I've used the secondary sources to select what needs to be covered in more depth and what needs to go into subarticles. Singman's Daily Life in Medieval Europe (which I've used extensively to base my coverage of social history and daily life) doesn't mention sumptuary laws at all. And the coverage of food and drink is very small compared to the rest of the coverage. Likewise for agriculture. Wickham's work on the Early Middle Ages devotes about the same percentage of space to social history as I've devoted here ... discussing all the layers of society and how they changed and briefly touching on the changes that occurred in the period. Likewise for Barber's Two Cities, which I use for the High Middle Ages. I've spread things out a bit more on sources for the Late Middle Ages - there isn't one really standout book covering the whole period as a complete overview. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes sumptuary laws are notoriously held to have been pretty ineffective at all times and places, and the Middle Ages is no exception, even things like the Jewish hat and badge laws were very patchily observed as far as we can tell. The development of distinct clerical dress (by freezing Late Antique styles) and the beginning of the distinct and unusual Western habit of rapidly changing fashions in the late 14th century are probably what one would want to mention if there was space, but really I agree there isn't, and some articles are linked to. Johnbod (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That idea of rapidly changing fashion might be worth a sentence though. Eric Corbett 14:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could distill one from the (mostly my) first 2 paras at [[2]] if desired. Benton (already used) has a few pages on late medieval fashion, without making this point though, and she does take sumptuary laws rather more seriously than specialists do. Johnbod (talk) 16:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments, not a complete review: - Dank (push to talk)

Delegate comment -- A few dup links may be justified in an article this length, pls just review and ensure that's the case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through and whacked a bunch of dup links. The ones remaining are long separated from their first mention and/or are not "commonly" known. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:46, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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