The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should WP:NGEO be clarified to state that all articles within its scope must include at least one non-primary source? 16:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Survey (Non-primary sourcing in NGEO)

• Support per WP:OR, which says Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them and Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability, as well as WP:WHYN which compliments this by saying We require the existence of at least one secondary source so that the article can comply with Wikipedia:No original research's requirement that all articles be based on secondary sources.

While this clarification is redundant as we already have a core policy that clearly requires this, I think it is useful to provide as it is not uncommon in this topic area for editors to forget that such a requirement exists; we see many articles on geographical locations sourced solely to the census, for example. I also believe the requirement itself is a good idea; if all we have is raw data on a topic then we are not able to put it in context with explanations referenced to independent sources, as required by WP:INDISCRIMINATE, and we are not able to provide the interpretation and context that is required for an article to provide encyclopedic coverage of a topic. Further, the sole use of primary sources often causes issues; such sources often require a degree of interpretation to comprehend and this has resulted in the creation of articles that claim, for example, a petrol station is a village. We can minimize such mistakes by reminding editors that they need also need to use secondary sources in their article creations. BilledMammal (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per NEXIST, we don't actually have to be currently using a source for it to count towards notability. That being said anyone asserting that the topic is notable on NEXIST grounds actually needs to be able to present the sources... The only real caveat I would carve out would be for topic where their primary language of coverage is likely other than English (a Kyrgyz parliamentarian for example), in that cases coverage can be presumed to exist if nobody present has the language skills to confirm one way or another whether it does or doesn't. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  While we don't need to be using the source for it to count towards notability we do need to be using at least one secondary source to comply with WP:OR; I think it would be helpful to provide a reminder of that - particularly since even when articles covered by NGEO are challenged editors forget this requirement. BilledMammal (talk) 17:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ehh, I think its more a user behavior issue if someone is creating articles without reliable secondary sources. My understanding is that the vast vast majority of articles which are largely unsourced were created more than a decade ago, not recently. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, it's still quite common today; for example, I recently came across someone creating hundreds of articles on hromada's sourced solely to the same primary source, and someone else creating hundreds of articles on Indian villages sourced to the same four censuses; even a quick scroll through recent page creations turned up this article, which is sourced solely to GNIS and the Iranian Census. Given that it is such a common misconception I feel it is more appropriate to characterize it as a communication issue rather than a behavioral issue. BilledMammal (talk) 17:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose As North8000 frequently says, Wikipedia is a fuzzy ecosystem and we ought to be clear and deliberate in how or why we change WP:N. I, for one, believe two things - first that stub articles are appropriate and useful to our project. Some information is better than none. Second, I believe that we should not treat primary sources as black and white. Yes, relying on primary sources is problematic, since primary sources frequently make the thing they are associated with/from look good and more important. However, there are primary sources that are purely factual and should be trusted. Who are the members of a legislature? Who are members of a football squad? Who holds a named professorship? Which businesses are listed on NASDAQ? I am more concerned with improving this project and using common sense than design one-size-fits-all rules that may have unintended consequesnces that make this project less usueful to readers. -— Preceding unsigned comment added by Enos733 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NEXIST. Notability is independent of the sources actually used in an article. (Edit: there's also an interesting point made by Thryduulf just below. There may be a forum shopping issue to dig into.) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  WP:NEXIST is about whether the sourcing is currently on Wikipedia. It is not a pass on it not existing at all.FOARP (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  @FOARP: I might re-read the proposal again. :-) This proposal has nothing to say about sources existing, but would add a new requirement that one be on Wikipedia to count towards notability. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 18:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per all Enos733, The ed17 and Horse Eye's Black. I really don't want to assume bad faith here, but this feels remarkably like trying again to make it easier to delete content that some people do not like when the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Changes to GEOLAND RFC is not going the way they hoped. The existence of a large number of stub articles on geographic places is not a problem that needs solving. Thryduulf (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  The requirement already exists; articles based solely on primary sources can already be deleted, both in this topic area and any other. The difference that this will hopefully make is to reduce the number of articles created in violation of the requirement, by reminding editors who are using NGEO to help determine whether a topic warrants an article that they need to include a secondary source. BilledMammal (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Although I am aware that you believe The requirement already exists, I have not yet seen any evidence that the community supports this view. This is the question I have asked in the discussion section above, and it has not yet been answered. Newimpartial (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  There is no reasonable way to interpret the sections of WP:OR and WP:N that I quoted other than that the requirement exists; if you believe the community no longer supports that requirement then the correct way to address it is an RfC proposing modifications to WP:OR and WP:N. BilledMammal (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Guidelines are not hard and fast rules, by design. WP:N is not absolute. Your interpretation of it is not inherently correct, nor the sole interpretation. oknazevad (talk) 15:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above votes.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support - per WP:WHYN, WP:NOR. Secondary, independent sourcing is required for all articles. No area of Wikipedia is exempt from this requirement as it is needed to maintain WP:NPOV and avoid inaccuracy and hoaxes. WP:NEXIST is an argument as to when it needs to be established, not if it needs to be established - and it needs to be established no later than a primary facile case of it lacking is put forward.FOARP (talk) 18:07, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the overall proposal, per the most of above commenters; it has confused the sourcing used to establish notability with the sourcing used to satisfy WP:V. But I support this secondary idea: "While we don't need to be using the source for it to count towards notability we do need to be using at least one secondary source to comply with WP:OR; I think it would be helpful to provide a reminder of that". A problem with using old census data and the like as the only sources for the existence of something is that micro-local jurisdictions are created and absorbed all the time, sometimes within just a couple of years, and they are not encyclopedic material (WP:NOT#DICTIONARY including a geographic one, WP:NOT#DATABASE, etc.). At best, they should redirect to whatever they merged into or are a subset of, just as we redirect non-notable school titles to notable school districts. But if there isn't even any sourcing available to establish that the little locality presently or recently existed and some basic details about it, other than a mention in a census, then there isn't any basis on which to write anything encyclopedic in the first place, even as a sentence inside another aritcle. I'll repeat part of NGEO: "Even the smallest geographical features usually may be found in numerous reliable sources: you can easily see creeks in maps, sand banks in navigation guides, hamlets in census tables, etc. There may be hundreds of them. They do provide reliable information about the subject. However this guideline specifically excludes them from consideration when establishing notability, because these aggregate sources tell us nothing about why a particular object is distinguished. Still, they do contribute to the satisfaction of the requirement of verifiability." Note in particular hamlets in census tables which is mostly what this is about. NGEO also says: "A feature cannot be notable, under either WP:GNG or any SNG, if the only significant coverage of the feature is in maps, though rare exceptions may apply." The actual rationale for that perhaps overly specific line-item also applies to "if the only coverage of the feature is mention in a census table"; it's just that the RfC that arrived at that exact wording was only considering maps at the time.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and I agree with a lot of SMcCandlish has said. Also I'd maybe some clarity on NEXIST might help, notability isn't depend on the references in the article, but those references do need to exist and be proven to exist at AfD. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Per policy, articles must be based on non-primary sources. This is an independent criterion from establishment of notability. While I acknowledge the concerns of @Horse Eye's Back and @SMcCandlish that presumptions of IRS SIGCOV can be asserted with SNGs and rebuttably protected by NEXIST, the articles themselves must still comply with NOR policy--which means that the content of the article must be based on non-primary sources. In theory, one could achieve this without actually citing the secondary source, as long as the majority of the info is verifiable to a secondary source. However, in practice the NGEO criteria have become totally divorced from any empirical demonstration of predictive power. Even the "evidence" that every subject in some subclass really does meet GNG is often simply a collection of passing mentions in primary news, appearances in primary government docs, and clearly indirect coverage that just bypasses NOTINHERITED. Inclusion of secondary sources, which should be a very easy ask -- and indeed is expected in every other topic area -- is apparently too onerous and time-consuming for geo mass creators in particular. Editors who create each article with individual attention should not have any more of a problem finding secondary sourcing than they would for any other topic from the same region or time period. So the only editors who would be affected by enforcing the secondary basis requirement would be those concerned with rapidly creating boilerplate stubs for every item in a geographical database--and if doing this is so vital to the encyclopedia that we can indefinitely waive all standards for this topic, then it would make a lot more sense to give the task to a bot and free the human editors to work on things that do need human effort. JoelleJay (talk) 19:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is yet another one of BilledMammal's backdoor deletion proposals. Can we ban such proposals already? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  If you think BilledMammal is being disruptive, the noticeboards are thataway. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 20:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose while it is best to have secondary sources it is not quite as easy to locate them as is being suggested above. I once came across a stub about an Iraq town with a population of 46,000 and I couldn't find any secondary sources at all and there wasn't much in primary sources either. In these situations a local editor with access to offline sources would be essential. Beyond adding templates I don't think deletion is appropriate in these circumstances if the details are verified in reliable primary sources, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. An article on a geographical place is going to include the history of that place, if suitable sources exist for that history. I happen to be aware that there are books written by historians that do not contain the level of veneration of secondary sources, and the level of condemnation of primary sources, that appears in our policy. Examples that I have come across include, in particular, "Historical Interpretation" by J J Bagley, "The King's Parliament of England" by G O Sayles, and the introduction to Selincourt's translation of books 21 to 30 of Livy titled "The War with Hannibal" by Betty Radice. In view of what these authors say about primary and secondary sources, I am unable to support the proposed addition to this guideline. If Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are going to animadvert on primary sources of history, I think the starting point should be to find out what historians actually say about those sources. I will not at this time support the addition of any further such animadversions not based on statements made in the verifiable published works of historians. James500 (talk) 22:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the NEXIST argument above; contradictions in Wikipedia policy exist—deal with them instead of digging a deeper hole, per WP:POLCON (which I see was mentioned in the pre-RfC discussion, and then just discarded). I feel like the proposer should also be aware, if they have any hope of passing more proposals, that WP:BLUDGEON can also apply to starting discussions, and not just participating in them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is no clear definition of secondary that we agree on; I've come to realise that the definition differs widely between fields. This level of hostility towards articles that cover topics that verifiably exist, are covered in reliable sources and are generally considered the purview of an encyclopedia is getting really wearying. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose This seems to be a solution to a problem that's already been solved. I understand there were a ton of articles started about cities and/or named places based off of one GNIS or census entry. That created a mess and stirred up some hostile feelings that unfortunately resulted in us losing some good editors. However, that is over and done and dealt with. I can understand a desire to want something in policy to avoid a repeat of history, but let's not impose hard line mandates that could have any number of unintended consequences. Remember what made Wikipedia great was freedom to edit, not endless and ever expanding restrictions.Dave (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose We have long said that WP performs the function of a gazetteer. Until a separate sister project is established by the WMF to do this, it makes sense that we actually include all formally-recognized placed as to serve this purpose. That means we need sourcing to affirm they exist, but not the same type of sourcing expected for notability (non-primary sourcing). Obviously, if that can be added, great, but it should not be a requirement as long as we consider the gazetter function as part of our purpose. (Also, this is the only area that we do have such allowance, so its not likely to spread to other topic areas). --Masem (t) 13:38, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the already mentioned points and and NEXIST. Masterhatch (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Adding more confusion between notability and sourcing type, and more wiki-dogma in place of reasoned evaluation, is not a step in the right direction. The proposal treats "primary" as if it is always an attribute of a source, taken completely out of context. This is incorrect. A source can be primary for some claims and secondary for others. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think everyone would agree that this is the direction individual articles should be moving in over time. However, the notability guideline has always been focused on the subject itself, rather than the article. —siroχo 09:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Notability is an inherent property of the subject of an article and entirely separate from the current state of said article. That is a fundamental principal that this proposal would toss out. If someone sees an article that they think is insufficiently sourced, WP:SOFIXIT still applies, as does WP:BEFORE. oknazevad (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose What novel ideas, syntheses, analyses, evaluations and/or conclusions are present in a geography stub? XOR'easter (talk) 00:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (Non-primary sourcing in NGEO)

See here for the pre-RFC discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• There have been so many proposals relating to notability and deletion recently, I'm losing track... BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Almost all started by or strongly and prolifically endorsed by the same few editors. I would support a moratorium on any new noticeboard-level proposals relating to notability and/or deletion until after all the currently open RFCs and similar discussions about such matters are closed. Thryduulf (talk) 22:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Seconded. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agreed. One at a time? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Support moratorium. The sheer number of proposals, the speed with which they are being proposed, and the sheer number of comments in those discussions by the same few editors, is making it impossible for other editors to get anything useful done elsewhere on the project. James500 (talk) 23:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. couldn't have said it better myself.Dave (talk) 00:46, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

And I note there is now yet another one on extending BLP-type prods to all unreferenced articles, taking place on proposals. It is genuinely hard to keep up with all this and actually do any real work here. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to share a link. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Request for comment: Unreferenced PROD. I'm about to start a formal proposal for a moratorium. Thryduulf (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Espresso Addict, Airshipjungleman29, James500, Moabdave, and Novem Linguae: and anyone else interested, the formal proposal for a moratorium is at: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Temporary moratorium on new proposals regarding deletion, notability and related matters Thryduulf (talk) 01:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: fixing the ping. Thryduulf (talk) 01:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• I think it worth noting here that this discussion was supposed to take place after the other RFC closed - indeed it was agreed on the NGEO page that it would not take place until the other RFC had at least closed. It was then that NewImpartial decided to open their RFC to pre-empt this one and BM open this one. To be honest I would not have opened this RFC now - tit-for-tat is never a good idea.

There's a lot of talk about "the same few editors" above, I haven't counted the number of editors who repeat this particular statement but it does also appear to fall into the definition of "a few". Frankly, there is an increasingly acrimonious discussion between editors who focus is on cleaning articles up and removing inaccurate content, and those whose focus is on generating or defending articles created rapidly and in large numbers based on primary sourcing - you might feel that characterisation is unfair, but it is the effect of the present discussion.

@SMcCandlish - your argument about WP:NEXIST is interesting. Is there a proposal, giving proper weight to WP:NEXIST, that you could support? For example, a requirement that secondary sourcing should at least exist for the article-subject? FOARP (talk) 08:41, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Note that Newimpartial's discussion is not an RFC. Your characterisation of the editors is definitely unfair, but this is the wrong place for discussion of that. Thryduulf (talk) 08:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Forgive me: NewImpartial's question about how to implement policy on the page that says right at the top "this is not the place to resolve disputes over how a policy should be implemented". 08:58, 6 October 2023 (UTC) FOARP (talk) 09:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I didn't have specific wording in mind, and in the P&G sphere I tend to focus on the style matters, so I may not be the best to craft such wording. The exact interplay between various statements in the sourcing and notability policies isn't an area of expertise for me. But I think someone for whom it is could gin up a propposal pretty easily, using what I said above and perhaps your summary "secondary sourcing should at least exist for the article subject". But something like that should surely be proposed after the current furor[e] has died down a bit. There's a clear lack of appetite above for another proposal relating to any of this until after all the concurrent ones are closed. Kind of a WP:TALKFORK problem (even if not strictly WP:MULTI; it's not literally "the same" discussion in multiple places, but a failure to centralize related propositions and consider them together or at least in series).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed that we have had at least one too many discussions on this topic of late. The mass-creation RFC mandated by ARBCOM after the whole Lugnuts farago was supposed to be a centralised discussion of all this, but it simply fell apart without a conclusion.

I would support workshopping the WP:NEXIST proposal over at NGEO and proposing something based on that back here towards the end of the year/start of the next as a Christmas present for everyone. BM is correct to highlight that we're acting as if secondary sourcing can be abandoned entirely in the NGEO area, but it's also worth saying that WP:NEXIST needs to be given some play since so many articles have been created under the apparent assumption that it basically doesn't matter. I don't believe the doom-laden predictions about mass deletion myself, but clearly enough people do that something needs to be done to assuage their concerns.

@Newimpartial/@BilledMammal - are you guys OK with mutually withdrawing the proposals and going back to the drawing board on this? We could play this out to the end but I don't think it's going well. FOARP (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, I haven't made any proposals, and I also haven't asked a question about how to inplement policy, which was your second attempt to characterize my question and was a second fail.

What I did, was to ask what the status quo is. We have two or three editors who believe it is a certain thing (NOR offers a deletion option unrelated to SYNTH) and we have other editors who don't see it that way. If the status quo really amounts to "the community is divided on this" I would think it helpful to see that documented before anyone draws up a proposal to change the status quo.

Basically, I would like to see what the community - not the five or so most invested editors - think the status quo is before an attempt is made to change it. I am not especially attached to the wording I used in my section above, but I do think that step ought logically to precede any proposals either to implement or to change the status quo. Newimpartial (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

OK NewImpartial, replace "proposal" with "whatever that is" if that fits for you. BM is OK with withdrawing, are you? FOARP (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a reason to "withdraw" the question I asked above, since it still seems pertinent and it doesn’t involve any change to the status quo. If editors have better ideas about how to assess what the status quo actually is, or if there is a SNOW sense that the status quo is "editors can't agree what the status quo is", or some other, better approach has been identified than asking the question I asked above, those would be reasons to shut down the above discussion. So far, I haven't really seen anything that falls in any of those buckets, and I also don't see how leaving the above section open could make anything "worse". Perhaps I am simply lacking imagination at the moment. Newimpartial (talk) 15:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, I think that 'the status quo really amounts to "the community is divided on this"' is pretty well demonstrated by the nature of these discussions. Whether it should be divided or not (based on existing policy and what it all says) is a different matter, but I learned a long time ago not to assert that dispute or uncertainty didn't really exist (in the face of demonstrable actual dispute/uncertainty) on the basis that it shouldn't exist because of policy's clarity. Got myself a reasonably long-term move-ban for taking that kind of stance, back in the day.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

No objection from me; I quite like what SMcCandlish is suggesting. BilledMammal (talk) 14:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Notifications (Non-primary sourcing in NGEO)

@Actualcpscm, BilledMammal, Bkonrad, Davidstewartharvey, FOARP, Firefangledfeathers, Harper J. Cole, Horse Eye's Back, James500, JoelleJay, Mangoe, Masterhatch, Newimpartial, North8000, and The ed17: Notify editors involved in the pre-RFC discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

WP:CONEXCEPT currently reads:

Certain policies and decisions made by the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF), its officers, and the Arbitration Committee of Wikipedia are outside the purview of editor consensus. This does not constitute an exhaustive list as much as a reminder that the decisions taken under this project apply only to the workings of the self-governing community of English Wikipedia.

• The WMF has legal control over, and liability for, Wikipedia. Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees take precedence over, and preempt, consensus. A consensus among editors that any such decision, ruling, or act violates Wikimedia Foundation policies may be communicated to the WMF in writing.
• Office actions are not permitted to be reversed by editors except by prior explicit office permission.
• The English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee may issue binding decisions, within its scope and responsibilities, that override consensus. The committee has a noticeboard, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment, for requests that such decisions be amended, and may amend such decisions at any time.
• Some matters that may seem subject to the consensus of the community at the English-language Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) are in a separate domain. In particular, the community of MediaWiki software developers, including both paid Wikimedia Foundation staff and volunteers, and the sister wikis, are largely separate entities. These independent, co-equal communities operate however they deem necessary or appropriate, such as adding, removing, or changing software features (see meta:Limits to configuration changes), or accepting or rejecting some contributions, even if their actions are not endorsed by editors here.

Should it be changed to:

Certain policies and decisions made by the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF), its officers, and the Arbitration Committee of Wikipedia are outside the purview of editor consensus. This does not constitute an exhaustive list as much as a reminder that the decisions taken under this project apply only to the workings of the self-governing community of English Wikipedia.

• The WMF has legal control over, and liability for, Wikipedia. Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees that are needed to comply with legal obligations take precedence over, and preempt, consensus.
• Office actions are not permitted to be reversed by editors except by prior explicit office permission.
• The English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee may issue binding decisions, within its scope and responsibilities, that override consensus. The committee has a noticeboard, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment, for requests that such decisions be amended, and may amend such decisions at any time.
• Some matters that may seem subject to the consensus of the community at the English-language Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) are in a separate domain. In particular, the community of MediaWiki software developers, including both paid Wikimedia Foundation staff and volunteers, and the sister wikis, are largely separate entities. These independent, co-equal communities operate however they deem necessary or appropriate, such as adding, removing, or changing software features (see meta:Limits to configuration changes), or accepting or rejecting some contributions, even if their actions are not endorsed by editors here.

The section that is proposed to be changed is highlighted in bold. 01:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Related discussions

There are three related discussions that editors involved in this may be interested in; they are listed here.

Survey (CONEXCEPT RFC)

• Support, primarily to make the paragraph consistent with our broader values of collaboration, transparency, and consensus, as well as act as a safeguard against WMF overreach. If the WMF needs to overrule us then they should be able to - but absent any such need they should instead work with us to try to implement a change that they believe is necessary, and they should accept the communities consensus if their change is rejected.
  I also hope that this will serve to improve the long-term relationship between the WMF and the English Wikipedia, by shifting us away from a situation where we are functionally their subordinate and towards a situation where we are their partner. BilledMammal (talk) 01:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Doesn't really go far enough. It should be changed to read that WMF may only overrule the community when it is literally legally required to do so. This isn't a significant change, and it should be one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for the time being, as an example of pursuing something just for "the principle of it" without any information about the actual practical implications.
  Putting aside the quandary of proposing changes to a rule that basically prevents us from changing the rule, what actual problems would this solve? What are the ways the WMF has trumped local consensus in the past which were allowed under the current wording, but would be disallowed under the proposed wording? Especially curious for examples where existing mechanisms failed to achieve a good result. Also, what work are the words "legal" and "obligations" doing here? Legal matters that are not obligatory aren't covered, presumably? So best practices and precautions for following the law don't qualify? Global bans dealing with sensitive personal information, for example, would be subject to an ad hoc !vote with a bunch of volunteers? I'd be curious about what other things would be excluded here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
  • +1. — Frostly (talk) 02:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  WP:FRAMBAN is the most obvious and recent example, I suppose. The Trust & Safety department of the WMF placed several sanctions as office actions, which under this policy the enwiki community couldn't challenge directly (one admin tried and was desysopped for it). The only way we broke the stalemate was by complaining loudly and by the ArbCom of the time going over T&S' heads with a letter to the WMF Board, asking them to give it permission to review the case, which they did. The overall result was an enormous amount of wasted volunteer time and aggrevation over what, in the end, was a transparently bad call by T&S. I'm not sure where I stand on this proposal yet, but I can certainly see how restricting office actions to legal matters would have stopped, or at least made it easier for the community to object to, WMF attempts to intervene in user conduct issues, like FRAMBAN. – Joe (talk) 05:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as factually incorrect. I might not like it, but the board can overrule the community – for legal reasons or otherwise. If the board decides to shut enwiki down tomorrow, it doesn't matter why they made that decision. Enwiki would be shut down tomorrow, and that will not change if this proposal passes. Policies are descriptive, not prescriptive, and we cannot change reality by attempting to live in a fantasy land. HouseBlaster^talk 01:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  The difference it will make is in how they overrule us. Currently, they can overrule us, point to this policy, and per our own policies we have to do what they say - the effort the WMF has to put into overruling us is minimal, and thus the cost of doing so is minimal. However, absent this policy they will need to take direct action to implement the change, and that will be a drain on their resoheaurces.

  You're right that they can still do so, but their ability and willingness to do so will be degraded, and I consider that a very positive step. BilledMammal (talk) 02:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  The WMF doesn't like overriding community consensus for fun. Heck, in the post FRAMGATE world, they actively seek consensus where possible. They redesigned banners last year, and were unable to meet their fundraising goal. They opened an RfC before rolling out Vector 2022 (and yes, this counts; enwiki admins closed the two RfCs and determined consensus just like any other RfC; it is only different if we want to ban the foundation from making suggestions). They are already very unwilling to override consensus; all of the stuff at WP:FRAM happened under the current wording. The current policy was sufficient to get the foundation to go from "no appeals, no exceptions" to "ArbCom gets to decide the future of this ban". In sum, they already are already unwilling to override consensus and we already can push back when we feel they have stepped out of line. Actions don't need to be against policy to be "wrong" or open to criticism. HouseBlaster^talk 03:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  To be pedantic, the WMF can force enwiki onto a non-WMF platform tomorrow. Alternative backers will fight for the tens of millions that come through that Donate link in the sidebar. Some candidates may even offer us better terms than the WMF. Certes (talk) 14:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  I would also say that this proposal is a matter that should be discussed at the level of WMF, because it intends to regulate actions of WMF, not of enwiki editors. Janhrach (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with Rhododendrites. I doubt this will have the intended effect, or really any effect at all. — Wug·a·po·des 02:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Policies are decided by consensus. It makes no sense to have a consensus that consensus can be overruled. If the WMF wants to throw its weight around, then that's their decision. But we do not benefit in any way from actively encouraging it. I agree with Seraphimblade that the language could be stronger still, but I'm supporting as this wording is better than the status quo. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Since my return I've been a bit shocked (perhaps naively so) at the veiled and not-so-veiled hostility between en and the Foundation.
  It would be a disruptive, existential crisis for a large group of en editors to fork and leave Wikimedia. But as someone who has a bit of of benefit of distance, reading over the past many years of controversy it's pretty clear that's the rough direction the relationship is going in.
  The benefit of such a change is that it draws a very clear line on the part of the en community, when the Foundation appears unable to do so. This doesn't have a direct effect on Foundation actions. But it makes it clear what actions the en community considers valid, and I hope such clarity can help lower the temperature, where ambiguity has raised it. I'm open to alternatives, but the idea here is a good one. —siroχo 03:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as it removes the ability for the enwiki community to formally protest decisions of the foundation that violate their own policies (Putting aside the quandary of proposing changes to a rule that basically prevents us from changing the rule). Also history suggests that the premise that the effort the WMF has to put into overruling us is minimal is very wrong in any circumstances the community actually cares about. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with what Joe Roe said below, but I'll add that I can't see any situation under the proposed version of CONEXCEPT that the WMF could make such a decision - any such decision would go beyond what is needed to comply with legal obligations - and thus instead of needing to formally protest we just say "no, go get a consensus". BilledMammal (talk) 07:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose, though spiritually I can see where this is coming from. Mostly I subscribe to the Rhodendentries argument on lack of effect, and to use the words of Cullen328 from the paid editing admin disclosure RFC, it's "a solution in search of a problem". With the WMF, it's usually better to WP:Drop the stick when it comes to office actions. I expected of them to uphold the present social contract between editors and the WMF, and so far I think they've done a good job at upholding their end. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:47, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support as a shift in the balance of power toward clearly-defined roles and against nebulous subservience. This may well do nothing, as suggested above, but I don't see how it could harm anything. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Removing a formal process for us to protest out of process CONEXEMPT actions does strike me as harmful. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do we need a formal process? I would've thought it was a given that we can inform the WMF about anything we like "in writing" (how else?), prior permission or not. – Joe (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Oh, I see, there's two separate issues here. I concur there's no reason to remove "A consensus among editors that any such decision, ruling, or act violates Wikimedia Foundation policies may be communicated to the WMF in writing", although it does seem kind of redundant. I still prefer the wording of the first sentence proposed in this RfC to the existing one, though. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Limiting things to where there is a legal obligation may cause problems with things that are legal good practice but not obligations and also enforcement of aspects of the terms of use and codes of conduct that they may not be legally obligated to do. I'm also seeing a complete lack of any evidence of any actual problems caused by the current wording. Thryduulf (talk) 08:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, largely per HouseBlaster and Barkeep. Changing the wording of this policy does not really change anything. It's a statement of fact that the WMF can override policies or consensuses on en.wp if it wishes. Changing the wording will not restrict the WMF's ability to do so. Even if it did, introducing the 'on legal grounds' wording doesn't really help much - legal grounds are themselves complicated, debatable and subject to interpretation - the en.wp community does not really have the level of expertise needed to interpret and debate them. Further, the WMF in practice is pretty keen to engage in dialogue these days and follow community consensus even on things like the fundraising banners (which it wouldn't have done at any previous point in the history of Wikipedia). The Land (talk) 09:12, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Neutral. It doesn't change the reality which is that the WMF can shut enwiki down in the morning if it wanted to. Stifle (talk) 10:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose As it stands the WMF knows that they can override us, but if we disagree with them it will probably be a bit disaster. If we change this, the only different seems to be we've told the WMF you cannot override except in specific circumstances; but we know they still can and if we disagree it will be a bit of a disaster. I'm concerned that with this change rather than us considering, did the WMF have a reason to override us sufficient for us to just accept it; it will become a case of the WMF overrode us and it technically didn't fit the narrow parameters we defined so fuck them no matter that actually they probably did right thing. (I mean I feel there's already something like that but I don't see a reason to make it worse.) Nil Einne (talk) 11:33, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with Thebigugly alien. The WMF should have no need to interfere in community affairs outside of legal problems; the community regulates itself by consensus. The proposed change makes this position clear. Edward-Woodrow • talk 12:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Moot per HouseBlaster. The current reading of the text reflects reality. Changing it would just make the policy of WP:CONEXCEPT substantively incorrect, and I don't see how it helps anyone to tell ourselves to alter policy and scream from the heavens that WMF cannot or should not trump the common wisdom of Wikipedia as much as it can already do, and indeed has done. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per Thebiguglyalien and others. Gradually, over many years, the WMF has expanded dramatically in size and broadened its remit beyond all recognition. Whatever the technical merits of Vector 2022, its appearance and imposition out of nowhere is a perfect example of the WMF's disdain for readers and editors alike. It's time to issue a gentle reminder of why we're here. Certes (talk) 15:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support restricting CONEXCEPT to "legal obligations" instead of the current rule, which can be paraphrased as "whenever the WMF feels it's best." Yes, the web host -- whoever it may be -- will always have legal obligations that the web host must and will follow, even if the user community doesn't agree. That should be the extent of CONEXCEPT. Beyond legal obligations, community consensus should rule. I also support removing the other sentence about lodging a complaint, because it implies that's the only thing the community can do. That sentence doesn't create any formal process, we already have a formal process (RFC), and there is much more the community can do (and has done, eg FRAMGATE, last year's fundraising RfC), than just lodge a complaint. Levivich (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Some oppose voters are pointing out that the web host can do whatever they want, regardless of what rules the user community comes up with. Yeah, that's true. But WP:CONEXCEPT is not a real-life rule, it's a Wikipedia rule (part of the core, foundational policy of this website, WP:CONSENSUS). The purpose of the document isn't to restrict the web host, it's to document what consensus is. Or, in other words, in my view, this proposal is not about what the WMF can do, it's about what the rest of us agree to. So, yeah, the web host can do whatever they want, up to and including pulling the plug and shutting down the whole website. But I support this proposal because I don't agree to the web host being able to overrule consensus, except when due to legal obligations. Levivich (talk) 23:08, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and Moot - There are and will always be issues that are not quite legal obligations that the Wikimedia Foundation should be the one to make decisions on, even if it conflict with individual project's wishes. There are decisions that are good for the Wikimedia movement as a whole that may be disliked by individual project, where it is undesirable for projects to have differing responses. And moot because such a change to the policy would itself falls under the existing policy exemption. -- KTC (talk) 17:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The rule of the the server obviously gives the WMF the ability to override this if they want to, but our policies should reflect the community's desires and should communicate where we stand to the WMF, which would be better with the altered wording. In the past the WMF has stepped in it because they assumed that the existing CONEXCEPT language reflects the uncontroversial consensus of the community, which it absolutely does not; making it clear that the community's desires are that the WMF only override it in cases of legal necessity (and that carelessly overriding community consensus or failing to seek consensus at all for vital changes may result in a drastic blowback) would be preferable, even if the practical reality is of course that whoever controls the physical servers can do what they please. For the people who say that they don't see the problem, just look at the problems caused by WMF actions in the past; the WMF has trusted the previous CONEXCEPT language, which was a mistake because it is wrong - it doesn't reflect community consensus, and it is, in practice, subject to community consensus. And this addresses the other objection people have made above - the text absolutely is incorrect in putting itself above consensus; the very fact that we are having this discussion proves that. As a practical matter the WMF can obviously override any of our consensuses but we have the ability to define what those consensuses are and to make it clear where the lines are that will cause blowback if crossed carelessly; the fact that we have failed to make that clear in the past has benefited neither us nor the WMF. --Aquillion (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Out of scope - As WMF has control over all of Wikipedia, if you are displeased with Wikimedia Foundation actions, the only option you have is the right to fork. WMF will always have control over Wikipedia servers and always will have the ability to make decisions for the entire site, regardless of consensus. Changing this bit of text will not change this fact. Website owners have the right to determine policies for their website. Wikipedia is no exception. The best solution would be to have a WMF-appointed community liaison announce changes ahead of time so that community members can give feedback before they are implemented. That used to be Jimbo, but now Jimbo is quite distanced from Wikipedia in the hierarchy, only being one of several Board of Trustee members. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 20:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Creating a Wikipedia account does not and should not give you any rights. CONEXCEPT is necessary for software changes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  CONEXCEPT will still apply for software changes; the fourth dot point, which deals with that, remains unchanged. BilledMammal (talk) 04:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose I would support changing the first sentence from
  The WMF has legal control over, and liability for, Wikipedia. Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees take precedence over, and preempt, consensus.
  to
  The WMF has legal control over, and liability for, Wikipedia. Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees that are needed to comply with legal it's obligations take precedence over, and preempt, consensus.
  -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:05, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rhododendrites Gamaliel (talk) 23:05, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Opposers. But especially Rhododendrites and the slant of the proposal that only legal "obligations" can overrule community consensus. This is "legalistic" in the bad way (as in, not actually legal, just faux-legal). There are lots of things where, strictly speaking, there isn't a law against doing something, but doing it anyway would be really stupid and could invite legal peril later. As an example, in most contracts, you aren't "obligated" to fulfill your end of the bargain - you can just break it (efficient breach). Does this mean an angry community mob can just be allowed to break unpopular contracts, even if there is a 1 zillion dollar penalty for doing so? Same with privacy concerns - often there's very vague obligations where any one step isn't clearly breaking the law, until some angry government official looking to make a name for themselves takes the collection of decisions and uses it to make a case. SnowFire (talk) 23:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, agreeing with sentiments that this is a solution in search of a problem. Post-FRAM, the foundation will have (what it thinks is) a very good reason to override community consensus if and when it does, demonstrated by the much-appreciated effort by the WMF in fundraising and the Vector RFC (and the time spent on that)(per Houseblaster). In addition, I suspect that T&S learned a lot from fram, and they take the time to regularly meet with arbcom now (I don't think fram is a problem that needs fixing now). Also per sentiments like Thryduulf. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 03:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, for now. There hasn't been another "Fram incident" since, well, the Fram incident, so I would like to at least cautiously hope that lessons were appropriately learned from that. So, let's see if those stay learned. If it turns out they didn't, well, we can always consider stronger medicine at that point (and I'll be the first one supporting it if that day comes), but right now I don't see it being needed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:59, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Something, but not this I think the current wording goes a bit far, in that it says anything WMF does preempts consensus. But the proposed change goes too far in the other direction. IMO the reality is somewhere in between: the WMF has the power to try all sorts of stuff, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't push back if consensus says they've overstepped. Anomie⚔ 07:09, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Would you be suggesting something along the lines of the WMF can preempt consensus, so long as there isn't a consensus against their position? (Ie, a "no consensus" result for something the WMF supports will default in favor of their position, rather than in favor of the status quo)? Combined with ActivelyDisinterested's suggestion I wonder if something like this (subject to copy editing) would be more palatable:

  The WMF has legal control over, and liability for, Wikipedia. Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees presume consensus, but may be overturned by community consensus so long as said decisions, rulings, and acts are not required to comply with the WMF's obligations.

  I think it is too late to switch to for this RFC, but it may be worth considering in a future one? BilledMammal (talk) 07:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Risker, below. --In actu (Guerillero) ^{Parlez Moi} 11:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, principally per Rhododendrites and SnowFire. Restricting the WMF's putative remit to "legal obligations" creates the risk that currently uncontroversial WMF actions, if based on things that are best practice but not strict legal requirements (e.g. pertaining to individuals' privacy), could be turned into major points of contention and cause further friction between the WMF and the enwp community. I also don't find myself convinced that the proposed change in language would substantively change the WMF's ability or willingness to take any given action. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I am concerned that the expression "legal obligations" is being used far too lightly. Particularly for large organisations it may be unclear what is a legal obligation until the courts have decided. How a business should behave will be a policy matter possibly (in the US) up to the Supreme Court. And as for jurisdictions outside the US, such jurisdictions can decide Wikipedia is breaking their laws. It will be a matter of policy whether to continue, so risking fines, sanctions on local editors and internet blocking. WMF, and not volunteer editors, need to bear the weight of all this uncertainty. Thincat (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Snow Oppose. While appropriately located in a policy page, the language in question here is less a reflection of community consensus and more just information relating legal and pragmatic realities that are simply not within the purview of the community to significantly change. We are volunteers with this project; the WMF have a fiduciary role, and they are not just entitled (by both internal and extrinsic factors defining this project's governance) to override volunteer decisions, where they have cause to believe it is in the best interests of project and to prevent certain kinds of harm to it or third parties--they are in fact legally and ethically obligated to do so.
  As Aasim quite aptly states above, anyone who has issues with that largely immutable state of affairs can feel free to stop volunteering their time here and attempt to create a similar project where they can position themselves in a fiduciary role, with all of the accordant responsibilities and authority, but with regard to this project, there are some things that volunteers, no matter how numerous or how dissatisfied, are simply not empowered to change. Therefore the proposal would accomplish nothing except to change the information contained in that section to be less accurate as to the division of authority and responsibilities between the community and the WMF and potentially foster unacceptable disruption.
  The reality is, much as we understandably value the wisdom-of-the-masses/consensus decision making model that defines our editorial and community standards, when it comes to certain activities, the WMF fiduciaries and the staff they designate for T&S and other functions are the final authority, and certain office actions are not permitted to be undone by volunteers--even our most highly positioned. If you are a volunteer on this project, you just have to accept that. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 17:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, the amendment is hopelessly vague on its face, as it is apparently assumes, random, 'nobody knows your a . . ., on the internet, will parse what "legal obligations" are -- no: real, known experts go through lengthy qualifications and long evolving trials to find that out for real and legal issues are constantly evolving. Also, in a system such as this, which is vulnerable to mobocracy, checks and balances are particularly crucial. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. On consideration I believe there are numerous areas where the Foundation is required to take actions that don't fall within a strict definition of "legal obligation". Espresso Addict (talk) 23:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The fact of the matter is that the WMF can pretty much do whatever it pleases, and while this community can complain about and protest against the WMF's actions in the most vehement of terms (and indeed, we have, we do, and we will), we have no authority to force the WMF to do anything. The text of CONEXCEPT should accurately reflect that dynamic. Mz7 (talk) 03:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per Rhododendrites, Houseblaster, and most of the other oppose comments above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, the WMF has the power to overrule the community outside of this narrow restriction. It is used sparingly, but used nonetheless, for example with WP:FRAMBAN and with WP:VECTOR2022, so presumably the WMF wants to keep it around. The proposed change unilaterally enacted by the community would be a symbolic gesture, but its practical impact and enforceability is unclear. I do not view the symbolic gesture as worth the potential for creating more conflict with the WMF. (And since legal issues are under discussion, the WMF would probably appreciate a broad remit if only for potential legal contingencies, and I don't think that is something we would want them to lack.) CMD (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support the role of the WMF should be as limited as legally possible. This is a project made by the community, and the community should be in charge --Ita140188 (talk) 14:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rhododendrites and SnowFire.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per SnowRise "and most of the other oppose comments above." The WMF's position as owner does give them certain rights that includes "final authority". We are not in some battle with the WMF. The editing world of wikipedia has secured a certain collective autonomy. This seems to be a world where each needs the other to advance the goal of a free encyclopedia so there is no reason to poke the bear. The WMF seems to have goals and obligations to ensuring the various projects exists in perpetuity. -- Otr500 (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support One point many of those opposing this change overlook is the qualifying language immediately before this list of exceptions where consensus can be overruled by the Foundation: "This does not constitute an exhaustive list". So if the purview of this exception is reduced, it does not necessarily mean that the Foundation cannot overrule in some area not listed here.
  So what value do these listed exceptions have? IMHO, this does not apply to the Foundation whatever. What these exceptions apply to is what areas the en.wikipedia community may be asked to support some action. As pointed above, some or all of us volunteers could decide in response to some action of the Foundation to fork; this is an extreme act, & should not lightly be done, but if the Foundation attempts to overrule a consensus outside of these 4 areas, we reserve the right to fork over that act.
  I wish these exceptions could limit the powers of the Foundation. One oversight when the Foundation became an actual institution was an binding agreement about exactly what the Foundation would be empowered to do, with everything else being reserved to the various project communities. Had that been done, we could have avoided the Foundation arrogating the rights & duties of we volunteers. But it wasn't, & now we have the situation where the Foundation is free to act capriciously & irresponsibly towards the volunteer communities. For example, turn off the ability to edit articles or any pages & turn all of the projects in a Knowledge Machine. -- llywrch (talk) 06:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose; regardless, this is out of scope. Wikimedia has full control of enwiki, regardless of what we say/want. Sure, it sounds nice, but it functionally does nothing. In these post-FRAMGATE times, WMF has, multiple times, sought out consensus, and while I am not necessarily a fan of their methods in many cases, they have complied with policy, and that is as much as we can reasonably expect. Forcing WMF to leave us alone by changing the rules to make it harder for them to interact with us is a terrifyingly hostile way to go about things, methinks, one that will only add to the WMF-enwiki tension. Cessaune [talk] 16:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Seems like a (symbolic) solution in search of a problem. If this is about WP:FRAMBAN, I would say WP:DROPTHESTICK. Sometimes the WMF's decisions are clueless, but they do own the servers whether we like it or not. Luckily they don't blatantly overrule the community very often (unlike Reddit). Nosferattus (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (CONEXCEPT RFC)

• Does the English Wikipedia even have the power to tell the Foundation (which somewhat owns all of the resources for this project save for the people) what it can and can't do? (I mean, everyone could fork, or everyone could make noise and complain to try to goad the WMF to change its course (reminiscent of how Framgate played out), but short of those two options this strikes me as a bit reminiscent of the ending of You're Not Elected, Charlie Brown: Linus meets with the principal to force him to implement the platform policies Linus had been elected upon, only to leave the room five minutes later and respond to "Well, did you tell him?" with a sheepish "...actually, he told me." 2600:1012:B164:9F55:5845:635D:767C:169B (talk) 02:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• I'm intuitively leaning towards a strong support here, but I'd like more information. I can't think of a legitimate reason for the WMF to overrule en.wiki consensus, other than legal reasons. Can anyone provide an example of a situation where it's legitimate and important, for non-legal reasons, for the WMF to be able to overrule consensus? Pecopteris (talk) 03:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Safety of individuals/groups, site security, ability to operate the website(s); each of them has been in play in dozens of scenarios where the WMF hasn't done what (some) people on English Wikipedia wanted. Risker (talk) 04:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  First would fall under legal, if I have understood correctly what scenarios you are referring to, second and third are technical matters and would fall under Some matters that may seem subject to the consensus of the community at the English-language Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) are in a separate domain. BilledMammal (talk) 06:35, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  No, the first does *not* fall under "legal". And the second and third are both exactly the type of issues that have repeatedly caused invocation of CONEXEPT, to the dismay of the English Wikipedia community. They *are* the real-world examples under which this rule has created tensions between the community and the WMF. It would be helpful if you spent more time learning the history of these policies, and the actual reasons behind them, as it would result in better proposals. Risker (talk) 17:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  The WMF's Trust & Safety team is part of its Legal department, is it not? If so, that would suggest that, yes, trust & safety would fall under "legal."

  Anyway, hard to see why/how the safety of individuals/groups, site security, or ability to operate the website(s), would require overruling consensus. Levivich (talk) 18:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Trust and safety currently is part of legal. But that hasn't always been the case. If that's the way people are interpreting legal that's pretty reassuring compared to the way I did

  I thought the revised wording would only cover things like following laws (eg DMCA) or following a court order. This would omit a variety of actions currently taken to protect editors, such as from authoritarian regimes (where the action might actually be illegal) but is following through on the safety part trust and safety. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Maybe "legal obligation" isn't the best phrasing. But the proposal is about overruling consensus. The WMF doesn't need to overrule consensus in order to protect editors from authoritarian regimes, or to protect editors' privacy, and so forth. Those are all things that consensus exists for. I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where the WMF would need to act contrary to consensus for some reason other than fulfilling a legal obligation.

  So, for example, if the community decided to allow copywritten images to be uploaded, copyright law be damned, the WMF might step in and say no to that, and I would agree the WMF (as web host) should be allowed to make that decision. But if the WMF oversights something to protect editors' privacy, or globally locks someone they've determined is a bad actor, none of that involves overruling consensus; to the contrary, those are examples of the WMF following consensus. If the WMF enforces the TOU, that's not overruling consensus, that's following consensus, because the TOU (arguably) has consensus.

  To use a real-world analogy, pretty much all modern democracies have a "nobody is above the law" principle enshrined in their laws. There is an exception to this, which is the declaring of martial law, allowing the government to exercise extraordinary police powers in times of emergency -- powers that would otherwise be illegal. But it has to be a real emergency. So I see CONEXCEPT as analogous to that. As written, CONEXCEPT places the WMF "above the law" of consensus. I'd like to see it limited to something akin to "in times of emergency." Maybe "legal obligations" aren't the best words for conveying that. But I'm rather surprised that editors aren't, at least in principle, agreeing that the WMF is not "above the law" of consensus, but should only overrule consensus in emergency cases. Levivich (talk) 17:51, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Modern democracies don't use consensus decision making because it scales upwards poorly. On English Wikipedia, almost all major changes are stalemated by its consensus-based decision-making traditions. Organizations generally don't use consensus decision making by its entire membership both due to the scale problem, and because it's more effective to delegate decisions to a smaller group of people, with the membership setting direction. English Wikipedia has additional issues to overcome: truly getting the views of a representative sample of the community, which includes readers as well as editors, is very difficult. For a healthy collaboration, the community needs to engage throughout the objective-setting process to guide the organization on the path it desires. isaacl (talk) 22:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  Actually it's about decisions that cannot be subject to consensus. Sometimes that means overruling consensus. More often it means that consensus can't overrule it. The actions I'm aware of, but NDA'ed from specifically documenting, around editor safety would fall into this second category. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 08:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'd say the job of executing the terms of service is mostly operational. Terms of Service are legally binding (both ways). A user could sue the foundation for NOT upholding them and that definitely would then involve the legal department. The judge would throw you into mediation faster than you can introduce yourself to said judge, but still. A department called 'Legal' doesn't just do things that are 'a legal obligation' of the foundation. For instance enforcing the trademarks is done by the legal department, but not a legal obligation of the foundation. It is an obligation if you want to keep your exclusive rights, but there isn't anything requiring the foundation to perpetually keep a trademark for Wikipedia. If the board tells the Legal department to let go of these trademarks, they can be let go. Executing that is a legal obligation of the employees designated to execute this (by their bosses), under the terms of the job contract and function of the employee.

  "Legally obliged" is probably a pretty narrow scope of the foundation's activities; very broadly stay within your legal purpose as an org, organise the required votes, do proper bookkeeping, fulfil contracts you agreed to and respond to and take action on legal demands with basis in law and you are pretty much done. If you've ever been part of a mostly dormant org or association, you will know that there is very little that is actually required to simply exist. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:25, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Risker, I'd be interested to know more about what you see as your second two examples. I don't recall the community ever having reached a consensus that Wikipedia should be insecure or inoperable, the WMF overruling that, and anyone being upset about that, and that's quite the astonishing claim. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

  Hi Seraphimblade. There was a point in time where there was a strong push to make 2FA available to anyone, which got promptly shut down. I don't recall that there was a consensus level, because things moved very quickly to illustrate why it is a bad idea. It is a security issue, it is also a user accessibility issue, and it is mostly an issue that the software was never designed for global use, and it is currently maintained only by volunteers. It was originally designed with the intention of only being used by the small number of developers who had full access to MediaWiki core software, and was subsequently expanded to WMF staff. Many years later, it was made optionally available to all administrators, and is now required for stewards and interface admins. The kicker is that there is no proper support for users who encounter difficulty with the extension. In the earlier days, everyone who had it personally knew someone who could vouch for them in order to get their 2FA reset. Today, not even all admins on all projects can say that. Instead of having a big long discussion or RFC about something like this, it's much more effective to simply say "not gonna happen" right off the bat. (As an aside, I've been reliably informed that this extension is high on the priority list for review and potential redevelopment, which could change this situation.) There are other examples I've seen over the years, all of which were stopped early.

  The most recent widely known and discussed example is the graph extension, with a very significant number of users on multiple projects expressing dismay about its removal. This was also a definite security issue, and was clearly labeled as such; as such, it's a global CONEXEPT situation. Risker (talk) 01:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

  As a fresh example, please see Challenging Disinformation in the Wikimedia Ecosystem. This includes a bundle of WMF initiatives including:

  1. Disinformation Response Taskforces focussed on prominent elections or geopolitical events
  2. WikiCred, a project aimed at training media professionals how to use Wikipedia
  3. Knowledge Integrity Risk Observatory

  As these seem to be concerned with content and are based outside individual projects such as this, they seem to have potential to generate conflict when establishing consensus for contentious topics.

  Andrew🐉(talk) 14:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• I wish there was a decent solution to the ongoing problem of conflict between the WMF and the Wikipedia community. I think there's some cultural incompatibility -- the WMF is a traditional hierarchical voluntary sector organisation, while the Wikipedia community's an opinionated anarchy; the WMF's made up of voluntary sector people, who care and want to make a difference to the world, while the Wikipedia community's made up of exhausted people whose patience is constantly tested by playing whack-a-mole with vandals and marketers. We think differently because we live in different worlds. I think this is a conflict that'll come to a head again in future. But I can't see the point in us passing a resolution that the WMF should voluntarily give us its power. They won't do that. If this looks like passing they'll treat it as a PR problem and send someone to give us warm words and start a discussion about how to begin to plan a consultation.—S Marshall T/C 09:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you're overestimating how much the WMF would care or react. To me, this change is useful in that it would convey the preferences of the Wikipedia community and would draw more clear-cut lines to establish that if the WMF goes past them they're going it alone, without community support and with the potential for blowback; but I'm under no illusions that the WMF will take this as any more than a suggestion or a community request. I just think it's worth having something like that, because previously the WMF has acted with the assumption that it can do whatever it wants without community protest and that clearly hasn't worked for either party. --Aquillion (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I suspect that this change is useful is more a matter of personal opinion rather than, at least at this stage, a matter of community consensus. It seems unlikely that WMF has an assumption that it can do whatever it wants without community protest but I dare say we could note that protest is probable under some circumstances. If some editors are profoundly dissatisfied with English Wikipedia top-level governance they could fork it like Wikipedia en español did to Enciclopedia Libre Universal en Español. That would demonstrate where community consensus lies better than an RFC. Thincat (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I've found it a bit curious that the WMF is not run as some sort of cooperative. Is this feasible and worthwhile? Shells-shells (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to? Sunnya343 (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I wanted to clarify that the central question is whether airport articles should mention every single flight that the airport offers (no matter the way that the information is presented). I said "tables" specifically because that's the format currently used by all of the articles. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Virtually all airport articles contain tables showing all the cities that passenger airlines fly to. Some articles also have tables for cargo destinations. Here are a few examples: Tehran-Mehrabad, London-Heathrow, New York, Jakarta. In 2017, we had two RfCs at WikiProject Airports on this topic: one that determined we should keep the tables, and one on how to reference them. However, I am concerned the results of those RfCs may be cases of WP:CONLEVEL. I think it would be useful to hear more opinions from the wider Wikipedia community. Sunnya343 (talk) 16:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Notices placed at WikiProject Airports, WikiProject Aviation, and the talk pages of editors who participated in the two RfCs above and the following discussions on lists of airline destinations: 2018 RfC and 2023 AfD.

• No. An article should certainly discuss an airport's current operations, but the listing of every single flight that is running as of today's date is inappropriate for this encyclopedia. Airlines frequently make changes to their schedules, and Wikipedia is not meant to be a news service that documents all of these changes. I also consider the lists indiscriminate; in the overall history of an airport, there is no reason why today's particular list of destinations is more noteworthy than the one from last month or two months ago. Few to no independent sources exist for most of the routes, demonstrating that they are not significant enough to merit inclusion in an article. The references that do exist generally are just covering the recent inauguration or upcoming termination of the flight - one of those frequent changes to airline schedules. Sunnya343 (talk) 15:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  (I wanted to present a more clear argument above based on policies. The following is my original comment, where I describe the impractical nature of attempting to maintain and reference up-to-date lists of destinations.) I'd say there are three general categories of sources for the tables:

  1. Secondary Independent sources - Only exist for a small fraction of routes.
  2. Booking engines or flight schedules on airline websites - These require you to input the origin, destination, and a random date to see if the airline flies between the two cities. For routes listed as seasonal, I suppose you'd have to search for flights on random dates in different months.
  3. Flight-tracking websites - FlightRadar24 will show you a map of routes from an airport (example). You have to click on each destination to see which airlines fly to it.
  I have not encountered another type of Wikipedia article that includes sources like #2 and #3 above - databases that you have to navigate to verify each destination. I don't know if they are considered acceptable references.

  When an airline announces a new destination, editors will add it to the list with a reference. However, once the new flight begins, that reference is often removed (probably to avoid citation clutter). Still, what this means is that timetable references in the right-most column (see the New York-JFK article) are taking precedence over what may have been secondary third-party sources supporting individual destinations. I've also noticed that the timetable sources usually have access-dates going back several years, even though editors continue to update the lists. So there is a discrepancy. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but theoretically, every time you make a change to the list, you should go through the timetable and verify every other destination, and then change the access-date...

  Ultimately, I believe the fact that there are no secondary independent sources for most of these destinations demonstrates that listing all of them isn't encyclopedic. Primary Non-independent sources are certainly allowed, but I don't think it's OK for large portions of an article to rely on them exclusively. It may be appropriate to replace the tables with a few paragraphs that summarize the airport's operations, supported primarily by secondary third-party sources. Below is a rough draft for the Indianapolis airport article.

I agree in general but in my experience almost all routes will have secondary sources especially international ones. For example I bet I can find coverage for every single route out of Taoyuan International Airport. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I've personally found those tables to be useful and feel it would be a waste to have them deleted. Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Is that what I'm agreeing with? My understanding is that Sunnya343 is opposed to the whole RfC in general hence why they voted "oppose" instead of yes or no. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm simply making my point without !voting. If you like I will outdent. Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

My apologies, I thought it was a direct response to me. Re-reading @Sunnya343:'s post their meaning does actually appear ambiguous and I'd like some clarification on that, so this was helpful for me regardless of whether it was intended. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, I'll change it to "No" (as in no, I don't think the tables should be included). Sunnya343 (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I did misunderstand a bit what you were saying but I still don't think we're actually that far apart position wise... 45% and 55% are close despite one being a yes and one being a no. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Sunnya343 (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Sunnya343, the sources you list in your example are almost all WP:PRIMARYNEWS sources. Did you mean that you wanted Wikipedia:Independent sources? Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent. I'd also add that Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean good. Wikipedia requires 100% use of reliable sources, not 100% use of secondary ones or 100% use of independent ones. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realize those were primary sources. I would say then that the "Airlines and destinations" section should be based mainly on reliable independent sources. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

In my (US-focused) experience, every single time an airline adds a new destination (or a new airline), it's reported in the newspaper(s) for the airport's area. I therefore expect that it would be possible to provide a citation to an independent source for every destination (at least for a US airport). But – is it actually better? I'm not sure about that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you about certain destinations, such as a new flight to a foreign city. But if we take the Indianapolis airport as an example, you'd be hard-pressed to find third-party sources for the more mundane domestic routes, e.g. American Airlines' flights to Charlotte and Phoenix. I think you have a point about newspaper articles and other independent sources perhaps not being better than non-independent sources in this context, where we only seek to reference the cities an airline flies to. What I'm arguing is that the lack of independent sources for many of the destinations is an indication that it is not notable to mention each and every one in an article. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You will often find coverage of mundane domestic routes (even legacy ones), especially around mundane incidents. Here is Indianapolis to Charlotte[13] for example. I would also note that all of these routes were non-mundane once and almost certainly received coverage in the local paper when they launched even if that was in the 70s and it will be harder to find. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:38, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

If you can find reliable secondary coverage for each what would be the policy grounded basis for not including some of them? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

(Responding to your two comments above) You have a point. But I would say, compare your source on the Indianapolis-Charlotte route to this one that describes the airport's first transatlantic flight. Your source is not focused on the Charlotte route itself. I think this excerpt from the essay WP:TMI would apply: Advocates of adding a lot of details may argue that all of these details are reliably sourced. Even though the details may be reliably sourced, one must not lose sight of the need for balance. I'd also argue that per WP:NOTNEWS, we do not need to cover the launch of every single flight from an airport. Sunnya343 (talk) 15:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Which of the four points of NOTNEWS would that be per? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring to #2, in particular: While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. You'll notice for example that in this table, the launch, resumption, and termination of various routes is mentioned. Sunnya343 (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

That part of 2 is about inclusion of articles on Wikipedia, that is WP:NOTABILITY not about what to include in articles. The only part of 2 which is not about notability is "Also, while including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information." which does not support your argument that it be treated differently. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I see your point. What I will say is that I'm focusing on the general notion of what sort of information belongs in the encyclopedia. The paragraph at the beginning of the section (WP:NOTEVERYTHING), especially the sentence A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject, addresses both the creation of articles on different subjects and the content of those articles. Do you really believe we ought to mention that Delta Air Lines is resuming flights from Indianapolis to Salt Lake City, or that Korean Air is ending service from Seoul to Tashkent? Sunnya343 (talk) 17:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I struck the words above based on this excerpt from WP:N: [These guidelines on notability] do not limit the content of an article or list... For Wikipedia's policies regarding content, see Neutral point of view, Verifiability, No original research, What Wikipedia is not,... Sunnya343 (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, airport articles should include such tables when including a table would be due (closed airports don't need to have an empty table for example). A table should not preclude prose coverage of routes nor should prose coverage of routes preclude a table, there is room for both and both are often due. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• No comment there should not be WP:CREEP on this fairly minor point of discussion; as HEB noted above, prose coverage does not preclude tables and vice versa. Of course, all the usual guidelines relating to weight and reliable referencing (I'm thinking specifically of WP:BURDEN and WP:ONUS) should still be considered, but there is no need to prescribe a "yes" or "no" answer to this question. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:48, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• The tables are fine if they are based in secondary sources rather than original research using booking systems and the like. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 18:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• No, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. My feeling is that this is both a) sometimes impractical, b) hard to source reliably, and c) verging on a WP:NOTGUIDE violation, which is the main reason for my opposition. Edward-Woodrow • talk 19:03, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Partial A list of airlines that routinely serve the airport makes sense, but the list of cities probably does not since this is a function of the airline, not the airport, and can change regularly. That said, outside of table, one can describe in prose the general profile of cities that it serves - I can see this for small regional airports to say what cities that they link to. But this should be by the airport in general, and not because Airline X goes to one place and Airline Y goes to another. --Masem (t) 19:45, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  Let me add another notch against city listings. We're supposed to be writing content as an encyclopedia that will stand the test of time, not what is just currently the situation. A list of airlines that an airport serves will not routinely change, and if there are major departures, that will likely be a discussion in prose. But for the most part, the cities that each airline services changes year-to-year if not more frequent, so it is not very useful information in the long-term. The only arguments that are being given to keep those cities are from a WP:NOT#GUIDE standpoint. Masem (t) 03:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• No, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTTRAVEL, and WP:OR. First, these lists relying almost without exception on WP:OR; entries are typically unsourced, and when they are sourced the reference is usually something like this. Second, they are indiscriminate and are are not put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources as required by WP:INDISCRIMINATE; they are just lists of where an individual can travel to and on which carrier. This brings us to WP:NOTTRAVEL; these lists are travel guides, telling people how to get from a to b, and not content that belongs on an encyclopedia.

This isn't to say that we can't include information on the airlines and destinations at an airport; to provide information that is actually beneficial to our reader and complies with our policies we can use the section to discuss how the number of airlines operating from an airport changed over time, as well as the number of destinations. For example, using prose we could show how Heathrow went from a small airfield to a global hub, including covering the impact of events like the pandemic, all of which is encyclopedic content and none of which can be done with tables. BilledMammal (talk) 20:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

• Yes - this is one of the key aspects of airports, namely what connections to other airports they have. If the info is only embedded in prose, the risk of outdated creep increases. --Soman (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Espresso Addict, Kusma, Soman, and Reywas92: (Replying to you all at once because I feel your arguments are similar) The same could be said of airlines - that we should have a list of the cities they currently serve because it's a key aspect of them. But there is consensus not to mantain lists of airline destinations on Wikipedia. I don't see how we can disapprove of full lists of airline destinations, and at the same time allow complete lists of each airline's destinations from an airport. Sunnya343 (talk) 22:38, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  It seems to work and not cause any problems. Airline destination lists were also separate articles. It is perfectly acceptable to have rules that allow content in one form but not in a different one. —Kusma (talk) 05:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Generally yes per Horse Eye Black and Soman. Obviously everything must be verifiable, and in some cases it will be better covered on a separate article to the main airport article. In some cases there should be a history of notable carriers and destinations as the goal is an encyclopaedic coverage of the airport and its history rather than a contemporary travel guide. However the current services are an encyclopaedic aspect of the airport. Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Thryduulf: When you say "in some cases it will be better covered on a separate article to the main airport article", where else do you believe the information should go?

  One could also argue that the current destinations of an airline are encyclopedic; however, the consensus of this RfC (reaffirmed by this AfD) was that Wikipedia should not have complete lists of airline destinations. I agree with Beeblebrox when they say, There is an important distinction between information and knowledge. Wikipedia strives to provide knowledge, and is explicitly not a directory or catalog, which is just information. Sunnya343 (talk) 14:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  where else do you believe the information should go? it depends how information about the airport is covered, and how much information there is. For example a major airport that has a long history and lots of detail may need spin-off articles per WP:SUMMARY and the list of destinations may be better in (or indeed as) one of them, in other cases it may be better to have an "Air travel in X" article covering multiple airports. Basically, being overly prescriptive could cause problems.

  Whether airlines do or should have complete destination lists is not relevant to coverage of airports. I'm sorry I didn't comment in that RFC, but as should have been easily predictable based on other contemporary discussions the consensus is being over-applied to excise encyclopaedic related content. Thryduulf (talk) 15:16, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• No per WP:NOTGUIDE and WP:NOTDB. These are things that change all the time. There are websites which do an admirable job of tracking all this stuff. Our job is to be an encyclopedia, not a airline database. RoySmith (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• I feel these tables semi-duplicate list of airline destinations, something long described as WP:NOT. Also if no other sources are describing this information, beyond primary sources, then are they WP:DUE. If they are going to be included they need to be properly referenced with something better than a ticket system that needs to work through to see if the route is currently nrunning or not. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:28, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, generally this is relevant and encyclopedic information, and it should be included if you can source it (including to the airport's own website, which is reliable despite not being independent). I arrived at this general conclusion by thinking about how important it is to understanding the subject of the article (i.e., the airport). If you want to understand the airport in context, you need to know some basic, objective/universal facts. These include: Is there scheduled passenger service at all? How many passengers use this airport? How many airports does it connect to? Are those connected airports nearby, or does it have long-distance/international flights? There is a big difference between "one daily flight to the next city" and "direct flights from ten countries", and providing the lists makes it easy to see whatever level of granularity the reader is interested in (e.g., how many destinations, how many countries, whether they're all short flights, etc.). Similarly, you can't understand an airport unless you understand whether one airline holds a monopoly there. On the other hand, does it need to be presented in the exact form of a table? Meh, I don't think that matters. A table is a perfectly fine form for this, if there are more than about three airlines or destinations to be presented, but a bulleted list is also fine, and if the list is very small, then plain old prose text is good, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  Is there scheduled passenger service at all? How many passengers use this airport? How many airports does it connect to? Are those connected airports nearby, or does it have long-distance/international flights? These questions are all better answered with prose; take Heathrow Airport#Airlines and destinations for an example. It doesn't answer the question "How many passengers use this airport", and while theory it could provide answer to the questions of "How many airports does it connect to" and "Are those connected airports nearby, or does it have long-distance/international flights", in practice it does not - we can't expect our readers to count the airports listed, and nor can we expect them to carefully analyze which airports the flights go to to assess what types of flights that leave the airport. It does answer the question "Is there scheduled passenger service at all", but it would be hard to include information on the airlines and destinations serviced by the airport without doing so.

  What would be better for the reader is to say something like In 2022, 35,000,000 people used the airport, with flights to 200 airports in 90 countries. On the average day 120 flights departed; 40% of the flights were shorthaul, 20% were medium haul, 30% were long haul, and 10% were ultra-long haul. British airways accounted for 60% of all flights. - and that's just what I threw together in 30 seconds. An editor working to improve the article could provide far more benefit to the reader than that. BilledMammal (talk) 00:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  I would expect some of these questions to be answered elsewhere in the article, e.g., in Heathrow Airport#Air traffic and statistics, which begins with a description of its passenger traffic. (Note that you have quoted from a list of "some basic, objective/universal facts" that IMO readers need to know to understand the subject, and not from a list of things that I think belongs specifically in a list of destinations served.)

  Statements like "40% of the flights were shorthaul" and "British airways accounted for 60% of all flights" are good, but not necessarily what the reader wants to know, especially if the flight pattern is weird ("40% are shorthaul, and none of them go to the neighboring region that the governor is touting in his plan for promoting business in your state"). I think that a both/and approach would be better than an either/or approach. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes. The tables give a clear view of many encyclopedic aspects of airports, in particular their connectivity, that would be unacceptably vague if relegated to a prose "description." While some of the data may be sourced from databases, it is definitely verifiable, and no one seems to be suggesting that it cannot be kept accurate. CapitalSasha ~ talk 22:46, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  @CapitalSasha: Here's an example of (what I consider to be) the difficulties of using databases as references. This is an excerpt from the table in the Los Angeles airport article:

  Airlines	Destinations	Refs
  Delta Air Lines	Atlanta, Auckland (begins October 28, 2023),[1] Austin, Boston, Cancún, Cincinnati, Dallas/Fort Worth, Dallas–Love	[2]

  When the flight to Auckland begins, should I remove the reference attached to it, since the timetable is already cited in the "References" column? But on what grounds can I remove a valid reference? If I leave it there, then I don't see what's stopping an editor from adding references to all the other destinations:

An example of the above can be seen in the Flydubai row of the Dubai airport table.

@Sunnya343: What's the problem with just using the timetable when the Auckland flight starts? CapitalSasha ~ talk 22:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I suppose it would be OK. But pretty much all articles on Wikipedia include information that is supported by more than one reference. I can't think of any other place in this encyclopedia where you can remove one of two references - and in this case, what would the justification be, to make the table look better? Sunnya343 (talk) 23:11, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that if a reference is really redundant or out of date then there is no issue with removing it.... CapitalSasha ~ talk 23:22, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you. But by removing those references, we are prioritizing the timetables over third-party sources. It's true that the timetables are only being used to support basic facts, but articles are supposed to be based on independent sources. And as WhatamIdoing pointed out, both the timetables and the newspaper articles describing new routes are all primary sources, and I don't believe we should be including such large amounts of information supported only by primary sources.

Another issue is that the timetable reference above has an access-date of April 7, 2018. But we just included a destination that began after that date. So I guess I have to check all the other destinations in the timetable, make sure Delta still flies to them, and change the access-date. Who is really going to do this, and is this how a Wikipedia article should be? This might seem like a minor critique, but I believe it helps shows the problem with having these tables and trying to keep them up-to-date. Sunnya343 (talk) 00:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, a newspaper article describing a new route is not a primary source. For example, this recent local news piece about new international routes is a secondary source. Primary sources may be the airport's press release and the airline's press release. But there's nothing wrong with using the non-independent sources - while an article as a whole needs secondary sources for notability and some interpretations, to suggest they can't be used for this type of section is simply false. If anything, these could be more accurate than a secondary source because it's straight from the horse's mouth. We sometimes avoid WP:PRIMARY sources because they may require WP writers' original research to interpret or summarize, but none of what's cautioned about there is happening for this, or even a timetable. Things change and may not always be perfectly up-to-date, but so what? This is a wiki, and there are a lot of interested users who actually seem to be doing a pretty good job on these to stay current, there aren't daily changes on most pages. Everything is still perfectly verifiable, even if the accessdate in the reference is old. Reywas92^Talk 01:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Reywas92, I think you will want to read WP:PRIMARYNEWS and WP:LINKSINACHAIN. A newspaper article that repeats someone else's information, without adding its own analysis, means the newspaper article is still a primary source. As the article Secondary source puts it, "Secondary sources involve generalization, analysis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information." It's not enough to merely be the second link in a chain.

Having said that, I agree with you that this kind of basic information isn't really what we need either a secondary or an independent source for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Sort of. I don't see why it's needful to have a complete list, but to me, it seems appropriate and encyclopaedic to provide some indication of which areas an airport serves.—S Marshall T/C 23:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, this information is encyclopedic and as WhatamIdoing writes very important to understanding the nature of the airport. Sourcing to the airport website is sufficiently reliable. Agree that the list need not be exhaustive and need not necessarily be tabulated. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:29, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• No the fact that these are not easily found and sourced to independent or secondary sources demonstrates that as a general rule they are run afoul of DIRECTORY and NOTGUIDE. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 02:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  @David Fuchs: is that a fact? It doesn't appear to be true so it doesn't seem like it could possibly be factual. The vast majority of these are easily sourced to secondary independent sources, on what basis do you draw your unique conclusion? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• Allow destination lists. They are central to what airports do, and generally well maintained and up to date. Old Britannicas feature this type of information about seaports, so there is some precedent for calling it "encyclopedic". We also don't have to delete information only because it is useful to have. —Kusma (talk) 02:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Allow, again This is getting tiresome, already recently at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_167#RfC:_Ariport_destination_tables and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airports/Archive_19#RFC_on_Maps_and_Airline_&_Destination_Tables. That an airport is a gateway to numerous destinations –and which airports – is obviously highly relevant to the airport, and it is perfectly acceptable and informative to include this content in the articles. It is risible to say this is indiscriminate or original research to include information that is easily verified in airline timetables and other sites. I have yet to see an example of users fighting over someone making up routes because there are in fact ways to look this up. These are not travel guides because they are not instructions, unencyclopedic details, or a guide at all! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reywas92 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Just because data is easily available doesn't mean it isn't indiscriminate - although based on the sparsity of sources at Heathrow Airport#Airlines and destinations I'm not convinced it is easily accessible.

  That an airport is a gateway to numerous destinations –and which airports – is obviously highly relevant to the airport, and it is perfectly acceptable and informative to include this content in the articles. Why are the specific airports that Heathrow is a gateway to highly relevant? As an experiment, I tried to find sources that discuss that the connection between Zakynthos International Airport and Heathrow Airport; Google news returns nothing, and while Google books returns a few dozen sources that mention both none of them even mention a connection between the two. Similarly, Google scholar returns five sources, but again there is no mention of a connection.

  If reliable sources don't consider this relevant, why should we?

  Based on this, I also support this proposal on the grounds of WP:BALASP; we are giving undue weight to an aspect of the topic that reliable sources give no weight to. BilledMammal (talk) 03:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  While there's not always in-depth coverage of individual routes – though the introduction or cancelletion of routes are often covered in travel media (and it's disingenuous to search academic article) – that's downright false to say sources "give no weight to" an airport's destinations. Some for Heathrow include [14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22]. That's just risible to say no one cares about the entire point of an airport – getting to specific other places. How can this possibly be indiscriminate? Simple inclusion standard: Can you fly from one airport to another? There's no unrelated overlapping criteria, subjectivity, or excessive number of items for this objective, narrowly defined, and finite concept. Reywas92^Talk 23:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Websites like flightsfrom.com, directline-flights.co.uk, and the blog London Air Travel are not the type of source we should be using on Wikipedia. Sunnya343 (talk) 00:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  it's disingenuous to search academic article Why? In any case, I searched academic articles, news articles, and books.

  While there's not always in-depth coverage of individual routes ... that's downright false to say sources "give no weight to" an airport's destinations You've constructed a bit of a strawman here; you argued that the specific airports that an airport is a "gateway" to are highly relevant. I demonstrated that they weren't, by providing an example of a pairing - picked at random - that sources give no weight to. I'm not sure how you can claim that my comment is "downright false".

  How can this possibly be indiscriminate? Indiscriminate; done without careful judgement. Including every route, regardless of whether sources consider that route relevant or irrelevant, is done without careful judgement. BilledMammal (talk) 23:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  When I go to the airport, there's a big board with all the flights and destinations – that's what the purpose of the place is and what people are often interested in when they come to these articles. Is going after London_King's_Cross_railway_station#Services and Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)#Services next? I don't think Google Scholar talks much about Amtrak's Texas Eagle... Is the real complaint just that air routes aren't as permanent as train tracks so some change more frequently? Reywas92^Talk 00:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  that's what the purpose of the place is and what people are often interested in when they come to these articles.^{[citation needed]} And I still don't understand why we would want to have a manually updated, single-point-in-time snapshot, of what services are offered (contrary to WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which says Listings to be avoided include .... services), rather than an encyclopedic long-term summary. BilledMammal (talk) 23:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes. This is not indiscriminate info, as there's a very specific inclusion criteria. And being primary sourced is not disqualifying. Primary sources are perfectly acceptable for establishing matters of uncontroversial fact. oknazevad (talk) 14:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with you that the tables are discriminate - they list all the destinations currently operating. But airport articles are not supposed to be directories that note each and every destination, no matter how trivial. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Your comment is begging the question and presumptive. This RFC is specifically to ask and answer whether or not such material is appropriate for articles. If the consensus is yes, then the guideline should be modified to note that consensus. Assuming existing guidelines automatically represent current and broader consensus is a perennial issue. Consensus can change, and arguing that the new consensus doesn't comply with older guidelines is without merit as an argument. oknazevad (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  How else am I supposed to justify my point of view that the lists are not appropriate for Wikipedia articles, if I am not allowed to cite existing Wikipedia policies? Is this not what you yourself are doing when you make references to WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:PRIMARY? WP:PG says, Wikipedia's policy and guideline pages describe its principles and agreed-upon best practices. I am trying to make an argument based on those principles and best practices. If you have a concern with a policy itself, you should start a separate discussion (example). Sunnya343 (talk) 02:27, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Since the discussion is about the scope and content of the guideline itself, saying what the guideline contains doesn't actually contribute to the discussion of what it should be. Saying you think the guideline is fine as is and why does. oknazevad (talk) 22:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  On second thought, I concur with JoelleJay and others that the information is indiscriminate. The tables list all destinations as of [insert today's date], and this information changes frequently. In the entire history of an airport, what makes today's list of destinations so notable, and not the one two months ago?

  Say that two months ago, an airport lost its only international flight. Because the emphasis is on maintaining up-to-date lists, an editor decides to simply delete the foreign destination. Sure, you can still mention the flight in the "History" section of the article, but you've nevertheless removed it from the table because you believe today's particular list of destinations is more noteworthy. FOARP said the following in an AfD on the lists of airline destinations, but I believe it applies to these tables as well: Since [the lists] can only be true on a particular, randomly-selected day, they are ephemeral and impossible to maintain given the way airline schedules change constantly, but if you did try to do keep them up to date, what you would have would essentially be an airline news-service, and Wikipedia is not news. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• No, per @BilledMammal, @RoySmith, and @David Fuchs. I cannot see how these lists/tables of the airlines/destinations serviced by an airport provide so much utility and encyclopedic value as to override our policies on indiscriminate info, NOTDB, BALANCE, NOTNEWS, and OR. Items on these lists may be ephemeral and quickly out of date, and if their only sourcing is non-independent or primary then having such detailed tables for them arguably violates the Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. policy in PRIMARY. Of course any routes that have enough coverage to be part of a BALANCED article can be discussed, but creating exhaustive lists or tables simply for completion's sake, or for needless consistency between articles, regardless of how well the entries are sourced, should not be normalized. JoelleJay (talk) 18:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Sort of We should provided enough details on destinations to allow readers to have a good understanding of the airports reach. For smaller regional airports this will likely be the complete list, whereas for large international airports perhaps condensing it into countries served would be more useful. As an aside, another thing to consider is to remove what destinations a particular airline serves, this starts intruding into making a product guide and introduces duplication if multiple airlines serve a single destination. Jumpytoo Talk 19:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, the tables should stay – from a user standpoint, I've found them very helpful. At very least, if the tables are removed from Wikipedia, they should be moved elsewhere (Wikivoyage perhaps?) Codeofdusk (talk) 21:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Codeofdusk: yes, Wikivoyage is the wiki for readers and users desiring for travel information, not encyclopedic information. See my vote+comment below. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes—There's nothing wrong with the prior RfC on this matter. Airports, like other transportation destinations, are primarily useful for their specific connections to specific places.--Carwil (talk) 16:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• With my reader hat on, definitely yes - these are surprisingly useful. With my editor hat on, there is an obvious "...assuming they can be sourced", but this should not be difficult in most cases. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Andrew Gray: What do you mean by these are surprisingly useful to readers?

  I agree that many destinations can be sourced with timetables and similar references (although I noted my concerns about this above in my response to CapitalSasha), but I believe Wikipedia is not supposed to be a directory of all destinations from an airport, nor is it meant to be a news site that seeks to maintain a current list of all destinations and makes note of the launch, resumption, and discontinuation of individual flights. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Sunnya343 The use is I think in simply having that readable list of "where can you fly to from ---" without needing to go through individual airport websites. A reader can use it for various things, be that figuring out travel planning (I want to avoid a local domestic flight, does that place have any direct flights from Europe? Are they only seasonal?) or more general background reading (what places actually let commercial airlines fly to Pyongyang? Is some pair of cities very heavily served from that airport? Are the international flights only to one or two countries and what does that imply? Which airline clearly dominates the market here?). I think I've read it for some version of all of these over the years. Anecdotal I know, but hopefully informative.

  A lot of this can indeed be covered in text but it'd be awkward to try and pre-emptively address all those questions (as @WhatamIdoing I think noted above).

  In terms of suitability, I think I take an expansive approach to things like NOTDIRECTORY: the fact that we've been happily doing it for untold years means that we seem to implicitly consider that within the remit of permitted things, in much the same way we consider it eg appropriate to have a comprehensive list of film credits for an actor even when it's "policeman #3". You can certainly interpret the guidelines in such a way as to rule those both out, and I don't think you're wrong to read them that way, but ideally I feel our interpretation of them should be informed (and in many cases led) by what community practice is. Andrew Gray (talk) 12:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  No one should be using Wikipedia articles on airports to plan their travel. We are explicitly not a travel guide, our information can be decades out of date or plainly wrong, and numerous sites like Google Flights are freely available to use for most airlines. JoelleJay (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  To clarify, when I say "travel planning" I'm meaning something that might be better described as reading with the intention of eventually travelling, the sort of initial familiarisation reading people do well in advance of booking travel, rather than the detailed Google Flights type planning that involves "right, if we take Air France then there would be a connection in Frankfurt". I wouldn't expect anyone to use it for that. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  But...what would readers actually be getting out of this content? Why would anyone be looking up which particular airports service airlines that go to particular other airports at any point in their planning? It would be way more effort to try to reconstruct flight paths based on a rarely-updated table of destinations on the wiki pages of individual airports than to just...go to Google Flights and plug in e.g. Pyongyang as the origin, set the destination as "anywhere", and select "nonstop only", which will yield all the locations that will send planes directly to Pyongyang in the next six months. Apparently roundtrip goes as low as $161 from Tokyo... JoelleJay (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  You can disbelieve me if you want, but I'm pretty sure that I personally did that a few weeks ago (can't remember what prompted it, probably read something about someone travelling to NK and was curious; never underestimate idle curiosity...)

  I knew Wikipedia would have that table, and it was likely to be reasonably up-to-date (not updated this month, fine, but probably correct to a year or so) - YMMV, of course, but I wouldn't have gone to a flight search site because, well, I wouldn't want to wade through ads and a clunky interface to find the answer and then spend extra time figuring out if it was actually answering the question I'd meant to ask.

  On that note, GF would give you the wrong answer: it doesn't think Pyongyang Airport exists, so the flights it quotes are from the wrong side of the DMZ. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ok, I guess in the extremely unusual situation where an airport has very restricted commercial accessibility it might be easier to use something other than a standard flight planner, but I would not have expected to find this info on Wikipedia and definitely would not expect it to be updated... I would just google which airlines/airports serve NK and go to their websites. JoelleJay (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• No - they are poorly maintained and often out of date. There is no way any reader is going to rely on Wikipedia for accurate and up to date information in this area. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:26, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• No. Poorly-sourced and badly-maintained lists like these are worse than useless, in contexts where people might be misguidedly attempting to use Wikipedia to plan travel. Wikipedia should not be trying to substitute itself for better sources of information, even disregarding the obvious WP:NOT issues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do you have an example of one of these tables that is incorrect? CapitalSasha ~ talk 02:07, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Based on the airline destination list issue the problems are typically:

  - WP:CRYSTAL pronouncements about planned services that may not happen.

  - Long-out-of-date data.

  - Broken links.

  - Unreliable/non-independent sourcing.

  - Original research based on comparing the routes displayed as available on different days. FOARP (talk) 11:50, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• No, not in this form. A general overview of an airport's airlines and connections over its history would be relevant. But a continuously updated point-in-time snapshot of every current airline and every current connections feels more like the function of a travel guide than an encyclopedia article taking a long-term, historical view.--Trystan (talk) 00:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV can cover relevant concerns. Making a blanket rule banning such information is unnecessary WP:CREEP. —siroχo 00:45, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Not in this form - an overview of the major destinations served by a airport, sourced to an independent source seems fine. There we are talking about essentially transport infrastructure. Compiling exhaustive lists of all destinations served from airline websites, almost always including WP:CRYSTAL-style information about planned routes that may not happen, and which anyway change quickly, is creating a service-directory and promotional content, both barred by WP:NOT. Moreover it is essentially discussing the airlines, not the airport. FOARP (talk) 04:57, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

  Reliable sources like [23][24][25] do not violate CRYSTAL. There's no speculation, these are legitimate announced plans with approvals that rarely get reversed. Addressing the fact that they can change – and not that regularly – is the beauty of a wiki. Reywas92^Talk 04:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  These are: (1 and 2) airline websites that are obviously not independent of the subject and (3) essentially a news-ticker blog. Flight plans change week-to-week, as a perusal of e.g., the BA website news section shows. FOARP (talk) 08:46, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• yes such tables should be allowed or to a limited extent encouraged. Particularly for smaller airports, the information is useful and maintainable. However for major international hubs, it probably will not be complete or up-to-date. So major airports could have a reduced summary of long running or major routes. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:23, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• No/ disallow per NOT. These ubiquitous lists exemplify everything we do not stand for: NOTNEWS, INDISCRIMINATE and NOTDIR. Also RECENT, for as the nom noted, this excludes previous versions on no other grounds than to be up to date. Whereas an encyclopedia should take a long-term, historical perspective where necessary. Plenty of policies back their exclusion. This would not preclude keeping information of genuinely encyclopedic interest (to be assessed on a talk page-by-talk page basis, perhaps). Serial 15:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• No in this current form (airline+destination tables) in all airport articles. That is the job of Wikivoyage. Both Wikipedia and Wikivoyage provide meaningful information, but Wikipedia is geared towards encyclopedic information, not information exclusive for travellers or readers planning to travel. WP:NOTGUIDE. Migrate all tables to Wikivoyage. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. Frostly (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. At a glance, looking at how large the destination table gives us an idea how well served the airport is. And I would recommend listing this suggestion under WP:PERENNIAL because it is proposed at least once a year for last 3 years with no traction each time. I wouldn't oppose if this data is imported and made available in Wikidata before removing it from Wikipedia. But until then, it should stay. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 05:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Your accurate characterization of this information as data underscores a larger point. Allow me to pose a rhetorical question. What if we made a tool that imported all the data from airline flight schedules into airport articles, and we configured it to update the lists regularly? That way we would always have up-to-date information... However, articles are not supposed to be repositories of raw data. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  But we're proposing to delete the data first before it even has a chance to be exported to Wikidata. This is like telling someone that Commons can be used to upload photos but deletes the local copy first. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 14:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• No for all of the different reasons cited by others already that Wikipedia is NOT. And a maintenance nightmare.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SandyGeorgia (talk • contribs) 18:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes The routes for an airport are sensible content and, per WP:CREEP, what we don't need are petty rules to micro-manage the form of presentation. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• No. The RfC is about current airlines which currently "serve" the airport. This is constantly changing and, per WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, etc. etc. this information is not appropriate to an encyclopedia. I am sure that some "yes" voters find it useful, but that is not the point; useful stuff does exist elsewhere on the Internet, but that is no reason to maintain a live copy here. The previous RfC, earlier this year, showed a clear consensus, and just because one editor missed that discussion is no reason to revisit it so soon. This RfC borders on WP:DISRUPTION. Of course, illustrative remarks on major and historic destinations, backed in depth by multiple independent WP:RS are quite a different matter, but are not the subject of this RfC. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do you oppose listing the current (ever changing) squad in an article about a professional sports team? —Kusma (talk) 09:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Nearly every pro sports team has a per year/season article where the roster for that year is given. That type of resolution works for sports since these are typically always noted. But I can't ever see support for a case like "2023 in Chicago O'Hara Activity" which would be the equivalent here. Masem (t) 17:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  That query is just a red herring: sports teams are not airports, and the points of interest are not comparable, per Masem. Specifically, if you want to cite/verify the lineup of Pro Team X back in 1953 there is likely plenty of RS, but if you want to do so for Airport Y you will be lucky to find anything at all. So we get WP:NOTABILITY, WP:UNDUE, etc. weighing in too. Just because there are fans here on Wikipedia does not mean that there is a verifiable fan base out there in WP:RS land. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Steelpillow: Did you mean to link to this RfC from August 2023? That one was on the lists of airline destinations (example), whereas the present discussion is about the lists in airport articles (example). If you apply what you said to the latter type of list, I actually agree with you, but that's besides the point. I started this RfC here at the Village Pump because I felt the previous discussion at WikiProject Airports was a case of local consensus. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Apologies, I did get my RfC's mixed up. Thank you for spotting it. But both support the case that these kinds of list are inappropriate to this encyclopedia. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• No Lists of destinations by airline are very volatile, and do not belong ion an encyclopedia. I have largely given up on reviewing changes to airport articles because of the constant churning to destinations, which can be difficult to verify. - Donald Albury 19:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• No. NODIRECTORY, NOTDATABASE, NOTINDISCRIMINATE, basically, and it all changes too frequently. The very fact that many of our readers might think that the information is reliable and current, instead of incomplete and months out-of-date anyway, is itself problematic. This is not the kind of informational purpose that an encyclopedia serves, and there are oodles and oodles of travel-related sites that already fill this niche (never mind that WMF even seems to be running one itself at Wikitravel.org already).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  I would be happy to use one of the "oodles and oodles of travel-related sites" for my travel planning instead of Wikipedia, but I am not aware of any place that tells me in an easily accessible way what the direct connections from any given airport are. @SMcCandlish, if there are so many, I am sure it will be easy for you to point me to one. —Kusma (talk) 09:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  [26][27], etc. And even if some informational niche gap could be identified does not mean that WP should fill it anyway; this is the main reason we have WP:NOT policy in the first place.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  These are all terrible (ad-ridden and full of stuff like sales links that do not help answer my question). And the point of WP:NOT is not actually "this is useful, so we must kill it". —Kusma (talk) 14:23, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with SMcCandlish, but I will say, why don't you just consult one of Flightradar24's route maps for that purpose, like this one? Come to think of it, the lists in airport articles are basically attempts to duplicate the entire content of those Flightradar24 maps, which are more up-to-date anyway. Sunnya343 (talk) 01:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Why would you even need to know the list of direct connections from given airports? Do you plan your trips by looking up what places some airport has non-stop service to and then choosing one of them? Why not use google flights instead...? Also the flysfo.com link with a list of all the SFO destinations has zero ads... JoelleJay (talk) 01:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Why not use google flights instead...? Because not every airline is on Google Flights. And that's just in the US. We haven't gotten to developing countries. Are you confident in telling me what airlines and flights fly out of Mogadishu Airport with links to the announcements? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  As a contributor to an encyclopedia article, I'm not interested in mentioning every airline and flight out of the Mogadishu airport as of October 2023. I won't rehash my arguments in my !vote above, but one reason is that the body of reliable, independent sources does not cover that information in depth. On the other hand, I might note that Mogadishu has direct flights to the Middle East,[28] or that Turkish Airlines was the first major airline to begin flying to the city since the onset of the Somali Civil War 20 years prior.[29][30][31] Sunnya343 (talk) 03:20, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• No. We settled this already. Nothing has changed, and WikiProject RfCs are a joke. --James (^talk/_contribs) 20:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  That was a different question, about lists on airline articles. The question regarding airport articles has not been asked. Thryduulf (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  In my opinion, the same logic applies here. --James (^talk/_contribs) 18:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• No – WP:NOTDATABASE, WP:NOTTRAVEL, these lists are often quite volatile and difficult to properly maintain, and the fact that Wikivoyage exists. I did sample some major US airports and did not see lists of destinations on those articles, but there is no reason they cannot be created and maintained there with a cross-wiki link in the enWiki article. I presume the purpose of Wikivoyage is to serve as the very travel guide enWiki is not supposed to be. If there are particularly interesting things about an airport, such as the aforementioned fact that KIND only has CYYZ and MMUN as international destinations, then those can be mentioned in prose. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• No. A few very notable mentions are ok, but not a complete list. A lot of these lists aren't verifiable and the extend of what is considered a destination often involves adding references from booking sites, which becomes promotional. We have WikiVoyage for this purpose. Ajf773 (talk) 08:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  With these and related articles where such lists mushroom up, perhaps we could do with a WP:NOTWIKIVOYAGE meme. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• No. An encyclopedia summarizes. It has no business providing a comprehensive account of all the destinations served by an airport. It doesn't serve researchers, since it lacks any context or analysis, it is just raw information. It doesn't serve general readers, unless they are extremely bored. It doesn't serve historians, since it is only a snapshot of current arrangements (that it will invariably be out of date is already covered by the Wikipedia disclaimer). Edson Makatar (talk) 13:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, obviously – The list of reachable destinations is naturally part of key information that a reader expects from airport articles. Even if Wikipedia is not a travel guide, it certainly is a go-to place to understand the local geography and potential connections in places you are not familiar with... or for that matter even for places you ARE familiar with. Wikipedia has a distinct advantage over travel-booking engines, in that the information is clearly and predictably laid out for a quick glance by human eyes instead of being buried in cookie acceptance requests, promotional offerings and ungodly "connections" through creative routes that only a database engine can imagine inflicting on a naive traveller. Yes, Wikipedia, please tell me whether I can fly direct from Phnom Penh to Yangon instead of spending 27 hours on a bus ride through the jungle. I'll figure out in a minute how to buy my tickets elsewhere, as you conveniently list which airlines may be able to serve me. Per WP:Readers first, Remember that the main purpose of Wikipedia is to provide useful articles for readers! — JFG ^talk 13:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, Wikipedia, please tell me whether I can fly direct from Phnom Penh to Yangon instead of spending 27 hours on a bus ride through the jungle. Per WP:NOTGUIDE, this is not our purpose. If someone wants to determine this they can go to Wikivoyage, or to any one of the dozens of websites that, upon being told you want to fly from Phnom Penh to Yangon, will provide you a complete and up to date list of flights and booking options. BilledMammal (talk) 13:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Our purpose (at least mine) does not include ideological adherence to a pure vision of WP:NOTGUIDE, though. (Otherwise we would have long since deleted classic violations like the lists of United States network television schedules). That something is useful is not a reason to delete it (weird that this needs to be said). —Kusma (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  The issue of television schedules has been debated before (5+ years I believe), which is why the wording for that in NOT is clarified as such. Its why these are generally allowed as talking about a given year's television season as to compare the blocks of prime time programming between the major networks as these trends are themselves notable. But not the specific week-to-week scheduling or things like daytime programming. There's a clear refinement there. The same can be done for airports - there are broad ways to discuss airlines and main routes but that do not rely on trying to keep up with day-to-day operations. Masem (t) 23:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  You can just visit the RGN website's flight schedule and see that Myanmar Airways International provides service to PNH Mondays and Sundays...which you can confirm at the MAI site. JoelleJay (talk) 02:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Being useful is not a sole reason to keep info. It would be extremely useful if we could supply medical advice to our readers, but even if we kept that strictly to MEDRS sourcing, that's still a huge minefield that we avoid it all together. Our first purpose is an encyclopedia, and NOT is what sets the bounds for what that should not cover. Masem (t) 18:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes Keep them available for readers to enjoy. I have been trying to keep them up to date and accurate for the airports in the Oceania region for 15 years. They can be maintained with the right sources and they have been allowed on Wikipedia almost since the beginning. A lot of people will miss them when they are removed but won't know why as they are not too involved with the Wikipedia policy. So will never know why they will be no longer on Airport pages CHCBOY (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes informative, encyclopedic. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes Easy to source, from someone who started out working those tables, encyclopedic and should be kept. 47.227.95.73 (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
• No Wikipedia is not a travel guide, WP:NOTGUIDE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratnahastin (talk • contribs) 01:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, a rare case I disagree with SMcC. I love this discussion, as it combines many fine things about Wikipedia: meticulous attention to certain details; a desire to capture parallel details about every entry in a category; a desire to be concisely useful and maintainable as a public resource. The whole purpose of an airport is to host airlines taking people and things to other cities, so it is a significant detail. Destination tables are moderately long, need occasional but not continuous updating, and are maintained by a community of passionate enthusiasts — I see no reason not to include them. (This does not strike me as what NOTDIR or NOTGUIDE were created to avoid.) For the sake of making the freshness of information clear, it might help to have a standard template that includes a "last updated" footnote at the bottom of such tables with a link to a canonical source for anything without its own ref. – SJ + 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, because non-stop destinations are useful information about an airport – what places does it directly connect to? Breaking it down by airline is even more helpful to determine WHO flies a specific route, instead of just saying there's a non-stop connection to X destination by some air carrier. Additionally, airport websites are not always the most frequently updated with their destination offerings, nor do they always differentiate between seasonal and year-round service. Panthercoffee72 (talk) 20:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes for me case-by-case makes the most encyclopedic sense; in general I would expect commercial airports with a handful of destinations would be the most suitable -- it really matters to understanding such a topic what three, or six, or nine places you can get to (indeed, it is perhaps the most informative thing to really understand the operation at all). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. There appear to be many Yes !votes here which really mean No. The OP has made it clear that "the central question is whether airport articles should mention every single flight that the airport offers". Many of those "Yes" votes are qualified as, for example, "every route" or "case by case", so what they really mean is "No, not every single flight indiscriminately". — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  An outcome of "no" will be interpreted as a justification for indiscriminately removing entire lists, which is not what any of those qualified "yes" !votes want (nor at least some of those with bolded "no" comments). Thryduulf (talk) 18:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  My impression is that the people who !voted "no" (and many of those who made a qualified "yes" !vote) do not seek to simply remove a list and leave it at that, but to provide instead a description of the airport's operations that is in line with Wikipedia policies. Sunnya343 (talk) 03:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Some who voted "no" and some who voted "yes" do think a prose replacement and/or a prose supplement to a partial list will be appropriate, but lists (comprehensive and otherwise) will be removed without replacement using this RFC as a justification if the outcome is "no", even though that is not the desire of most. Thryduulf (talk) 09:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Mass excision of lists without a sincere effort to replace them would not be productive, but disruptive, and such behavior should be dealt with accordingly. Sunnya343 (talk) 14:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Except such mass removals are almost always the result of an RFC with a closure that something doesn't belong. And any attempt to push back against such mass removals results in not only the removed simply pointing to the RFC as justification with no nuance, but offer results in the person saying correctly that mass removal is a bad idea having to defend themself at ANI. Thryduulf is right. The strict binary of wording of the RFC would absolutely result in a mass removal with no sense of subtly whatsoever. oknazevad (talk) 14:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed, this is why I raised issues with the phasing of the question all the way at the beginning. I'm not sure I could blame the removal on disruptive users I think the blame falls squarely on the wording of the RfC. @Sunnya343: this means that if such mass excision happens it will be on your head alone. You can not, as you do here, simply pass the buck to other editors and claim that its them who is disruptive for your mistake. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  "It will be on your head alone"? What nonsense. It would be on the head of everybody who helped build the consensus - which usually means most of us - and especially on the wording of the closure. And many of us would not be sorry to see a clean slate and a fresh start on the well-sourced ones. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  How am I supposed to incorporate every possible nuance into the RfC statement and still comply with WP:RFCBRIEF? The nuances arise over the course of the discussion and should be incorporated into the closing summary, as Steelpillow noted. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  A question closer to "what should lists of destinations in airport articles include?" with a list of options, including (but not necessarily limited to) "nothing" (i.e. remove the lists), "an up-to-date list of all destinations", and "a representative sample of destinations" would allow for much greater nuance and much less scope for overzealous content removal. That you needed to clarify the question so soon after asking it is not evidence of a well-workshopped proposal. Thryduulf (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Close poorly phrased RFC and start over. It isn't clear from the wording whether we're discussing requiring these tables or banning them. I don't think anyone's going to !vote for saying the tables "should" always appear; that's not the same as putting in a rule against them. --Trovatore (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  How is the wording different from this RfC, which editors did not have difficulty understanding: Should Wikipedia have and maintain complete lists of airline destinations? In the same vein as the latter discussion, the present RfC is asking whether the complete lists of airlines and destinations in airport articles belong in Wikipedia. The paragraph that begins with Virtually all airport articles should make this clear. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Appears to be substantially different from "Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to?" the key difference being "all the airlines" which the first question doesn't ask at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  The first question asks whether Wikipedia should have complete lists of airline destinations (example). My question asks if airport articles should have complete lists of airlines and destinations - i.e. "all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to". Sunnya343 (talk) 23:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Sunnya343: The problem is with the interpretation of the word "should", where a yes answer could be taken as meaning that these lists should always appear, and no could be taken as meaning that they should never appear. That's a bad question and basically invalidates the whole RfC. You need to close it and start over, asking a question more focused on what you mean. If you think that maybe we should ban the lists, you should ask if we should ban the lists. If you think they should always appear, you should ask whether they should always appear. --Trovatore (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  There are, at a basic level, multiple options for how lists/tables of destinations could be handled.

  1. Never allowed.
  2. Exceptionally allowed. Exceptions would require discussion at an individual article level, with a presumption against inclusion
  3. Discouraged. Most articles should not have a list/table, but there are some airports where it is justified.
  4. Neutral. Neither required nor prohibited, with no general presumption for or against inclusion.
  5. Encouraged. Most articles should have such a list/table, but sometimes it makes sense not have one.
  6. Almost always required. Exceptions are possible and would require discussion on each article, with a presumption in favour of inclusion.
  7. Required. Every article about an airport with scheduled flights should have list and/or table of the airlines and destinations.

  It should also be made clear that there are multiple types of list/table, none of which are mutually exclusive (even on a single article) and the consensus regarding each might be different:

  1. Complete, listing every airline and destination.
  2. Comprehensive, including most but not necessarily all.
  3. Representative, a sample giving an overview of the types of airlines and destinations and their relative proportions
  4. Most significant only.

  Finally, each of those four types could be for the rolling now, for a specific moment in time or covering a period of time (e.g. a single year through to a decade or so, possibly more). An article may have more than one (e.g. a complete list for now and a representative list for each prior era of operations).

  This discussion reduces all this to a single question and assumes that everybody is talking about the same thing. Thryduulf (talk) 16:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  The other RfC statement also includes the word should, yet editors raised no concerns about its meaning. The outcome of that RfC was clear enough for three subsequent discussions to reaffirm it (1, 2, 3). I have contacted the people who started those discussions to seek their input.

  The question is quite straightforward. Either you believe Wikipedia should maintain the current, complete lists of airlines and destinations found in all airport articles, or you do not. If you !vote "Yes", you provide your reasoning. If you !vote "No", you are free to explain what sort of information should be provided instead, as many editors have done. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Needs further clarification. It should not be required, but does not prohibit mentions either. Senorangel (talk) 02:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

• No hopelessly outdated in most articles WP:NOTGUIDE.Moxy- 23:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. I don't buy the WP:NOTGUIDE argument one bit. It's encyclopedic info relating to which airlines serve the airport (along with other airports that can be reached directly from that airport, which can often be found in RS). That is essential info relating to an airport's operation - much like we would not have a road article that fails to list what towns the road serves, or a railway station article that doesn't mention what railway lines actually stop there. What would bring this into NOTGUIDE territory are timetables, flight numbers, gate numbers, etc. Epicgenius (talk) 13:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  Roads and train tracks are essentially permanent and thus once down, they won't change. The airlines that serve an airport, and moreso the list of cities they serve, are extremely flexible since planes are not required to travel fixed paths. Masem (t) 02:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Good point; it could be harder to maintain articles like that. I still think airline/destination lists can be included if supported by RS; though I don't think their usage should be banned (or conversely, mandated), as the destinations served by an airport are still valuable pieces of information relating to the airport's very operations. If an airport only has flights to one or two other airports, for example, it would not serve the WP:READER well to not mention that. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:12, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  To add, the equivalent of airports/airlines to roads would be bus and train routes, which are subject to daily changes. And which we don't include. Masem (t) 02:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Epicgenius: I agree 100% with your sentiment regarding an airport with few flights. For example, it would be silly to insist that you may not explicitly mention the three flights available at the Kalamazoo airport. I'm sure you will find a good number of RS that discuss them in detail, given their significance to a small airport like Kalamazoo's. The Newark airport is a different story. But even then, there are some noteworthy routes that we should describe in the article, such as the nonstop flight to Singapore, which is the longest in the world.[32][33]

  Is that what you thought when you read the RfC question and clarification - that if you !vote "No", it means you believe that explicitly mentioning any current destinations should be forbidden? (Not asking sarcastically.) Because that's not what I meant. I didn't think it was necessary to include that nuance since this RfC on a similar topic did not either, and editors seemed to understand. Sunnya343 (talk) 14:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for the response @Sunnya343. I will admit that I interpreted the question "Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to?" as having two choices—yes, we should allow them to be included, and no, we should not allow them to be included. My position is that the tables could be included if sources support them, but that the tables shouldn't be mandatory (which I supposed would be the subject of a later discussion). Epicgenius (talk) 15:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes - It's an integral part of the importance of an airport. It includes information that goes into airport size, airline market share, and more. Since the dawn of Wikipedia we've had these tables and I'm not sure why some people keep going after them. ✈ mike_gigs ^talk_contribs 14:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• No - We're not a directory and this comes off as way too promotional. It's like listing the menus of restaurants, or listing all the different model bulbs made by General Electric. It comes off as not only unencyclopedic but as an advertisement for these facilities. There's a fine line between giving a basic summary highlighting what a business does and promoting what they do. This seems to cross it by a mile. Zaereth (talk) 03:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. The destinations that an airport serves are just as relevant as the destinations that a road or railway serves. It is true that these airport destinations change more easily than roads or railways, and so needs more frequent updating, but the content is usually easily verifiable through airport websites and airline timetables. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  As an aviation enthusiast who used to edit these lists frequently, I have found that the easiest way to verify their contents is to check Flightradar24. The website is convenient in that it compiles data from different airline timetables and other sources. If we take the Chongqing airport table as an example, it's easy to type "CKG-CAN" (the airport codes for Chongqing and Guangzhou) in the search box and click on Flight AQ 1200 to confirm that 9 Air flies between those cities. You can do the same for the rest of the destinations in the table. There was a time when I would pull up one of Flightradar24's route maps for an airport, write down all of the airlines and destinations, and add that information to articles in the Spanish Wikipedia that previously lacked such lists. Eventually I paused to reflect. What is the point of meticulously copying all of this information from one website to another, especially given how often it changes?

  Railway services are major pieces of infrastructure that receive extensive coverage in the body of published sources. For instance, the services at Cleveland Lakefront Station are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles. If one of these ended, it would be a major event that we would describe in the station's article. On the other hand, when Lufthansa ends its Frankfurt–Erbil service or British Airways stops flying from Doha to London-Gatwick, we will simply delete the destination from the table; that information will be removed from the article forever. In other words, we're not meaningfully building or expanding the article, but continually hitting the "refresh" button on the list of destinations. Providing information that is transient and at this level of granularity is a job better suited to a constantly updated database like Flightradar24, than to an encyclopedia article. Sunnya343 (talk) 22:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes: WP:V and WP:CREEP are each valid counters to the WP:INDISCRIMINATE claims, and simply because some articles lack the proper sourcing does not mean that it doesn't exist. Let'srun (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes Certainly they may need better sourcing, but that can come in the course of article improvement, and it's useful to have.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes Without expounding further....as many excellent reasons cited above. But the same expectations and content rules should be applied as consistently as the rest of Wikipedia (well sourced, cited, maintained etc...) (If it is unmaintained / not well sourced - it should be either repaired or deleted just like every other wikipedia article. DigitalExpat (talk) 06:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Vote to close this RFC - upon rereading, there's been excellent valid points raised about the flawed nature of the question in this RG and it is unlikely to be able to drive to a productive conclusion. Some very experienced wiki editors have given good points here and they have largely been ignored or taken as an argument. I would suggest a more productive RFC would be on the Aviation Wiki talk pages on perhaps 'how best to source flight information' (eg OAG and Cirium as proof of routes instead of FR24 that just says a plane flew from A to B within the last 30days). To contradict my vote above, upon reread of this long (and growing) RFC, it is a flawed question and unanswerable as evidenced by the above. (PS - if we source superior resources like Cirium based data,it would tell us that EWR-SIN is not the "longest flight", but is the 2nd longest.) Cheers! DigitalExpat (talk) 02:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Qualified yes For major airports like Heathrow, or Chicago IMHO it's not necessary: one can assume that there are many flights to & from many places involving those airports. However, when it comes to less trafficked airports, where there might be only one or two carriers that service it, it becomes important not only to potential travelers, but as an indicator of how busy that airport is. Further, the airports I have in mind are those in second or third-tier cities in Africa or Asia -- only as an afterthought I realized this could apply to the US & Western Europe. (IIRC, all cities in Oregon except Portland have at most one carrier serving their airport, which is the case for most states in the US.) As for the issue of maintainability, we have that same issue with countless articles, & the only solution is for more eyes & editors. If we start accepting that as an unqualified reason to omit information, we might as well go on a deletion spree thru the rest of Wikipedia. -- llywrch (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• No, not at all, per SMcCandlish and Moxy. The fact that readers trust us for this, is a problem in itself, when these very long tables are poorly maintained. Disallowed by several sections of WP:NOT (heck, even WP:NOTPRICE: "products and services" / "availability information"). Information cannot be defining (or encyclopedic) if it changes frequently, and we shouldn't be maintaining carbon copies of info findable on other websites (like the airport's site, or flightradar24). Destinations are determined by airlines, not airports, so this would make less sense than lists of airline destinations, which there is already consensus against. DFlhb (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• Include in some way, either in the article or as a soft redirect to WikiVoyage. I think that ultimately it's more useful to keep them despite the strong NOTDIRECTORY argument as it would better assist readers (per the essay Wikipedia:Readers first), but if they have to go, consider soft redirecting our readers to WikiVoyage as a middle ground. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. I think the most compelling argument for me was given by Kusma: this is traditionally within the scope of an encyclopedia. Streamline8988 (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (airlines and destinations)

• I have a problem with the framing of this question, "Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to?" is so vague that we all appear to be voting on different proposals. @Sunnya343: can you clarify whether by "all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to" you mean all which we can reliably source or is it a rhetorical question? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm asking whether airport articles should mention every single flight that the airport offers, which is what it appears the articles are trying to do. I specifically mentioned "tables" because that is the format used by all the articles, but the central question is what I said in the previous sentence. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  If they're going to mention some of them, and a complete list is possible, then why shouldn't we have a complete list? What's the advantage to having a partial list? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  In my rough draft for the Indianapolis airport article (which is just an idea, I'm not saying this is exactly how it should be), I do explicitly mention Toronto and Cancun, but that's because those are the airport's only two international destinations. If the airport had 10 or 15 international destinations, I personally wouldn't list all of them. So I'd say it comes down to the judgment of the editor(s), just like in other articles, where you have to decide whether or not to include certain details. I think WP:NOTEVERYTHING would apply. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Does it come down to judgement or does it come down to what the sources cover? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  I still believe it comes down to judgment, and that WP:TMI is relevant here. Sunnya343 (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2023 (UTC) Actually, I think it's more nuanced. Please see the paragraph I wrote on October 7 after !voting "No". Sunnya343 (talk) 03:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  TMI is a WP:ESSAY, WP:NPOV is a WP:POLICY. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:46, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  You're right. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the need to mention every flight then. Sunnya343 (talk) 18:37, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  You're disagreeing with a straw man, that is not my position and never has been. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Then what exactly is your position? I thought you were saying that because third-party sources can be found for every destination, we should include them all. Sunnya343 (talk) 22:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Nowhere did I say that and I'm not really sure where you would get that I did from. I said that "airport articles should include such tables when including a table would be due (closed airports don't need to have an empty table for example). A table should not preclude prose coverage of routes nor should prose coverage of routes preclude a table, there is room for both and both are often due." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Theoretically these tables might be able to be maintained to adequate sourcing levels, but this will not ever happen in practice. It's thousands of airports with shifting schedules and much fewer editors. The route and destination tables of most airport articles I watch are maintained by unsourced and often unexplained edits which add or remove routes and airlines. Obviously no-one checks these, and no-one has time to check them all, and even if someone did check them at some point it's entirely possible the situation might have changed. That is not to say the edits are not in good faith, much seem likely to be accurate, but it can be hard to know. Sometimes sources are added, which will note route opening, but these routes are as subject to change and removal as the unsourced ones. Many seem to find the tables useful, so I'm hesitant to oppose. I find the tables occasionally informative if indiscriminate. However, I read them with the knowledge that they are a mixture of incomplete, out of date, and possibly unsubstantiated information. I do not know if we should assume the same from our readers. CMD (talk) 02:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• I am pretty sure there was a major deletion discussion and reversion a few years back, on exactly this topic. Would it be relevant to this question? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  You might be thinking of this RfC on the lists of airline destinations. Sunnya343 (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, that was really weird. We got a consensus to delete destination lists, then I got yelled for actually doing it. I still firmly belive that per WP:NOTDIRECTORY we shouldn't be hosting these schedules at all. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• I would suggest that rather than attempting the impossible task of maintaining a complete and current list of airlines and destinations, we provide a snapshot of the typical operations of a given airport with respect to this information. That way, nothing needs to be updated, so long as we can accurately say that a particular set of this information from a particular date is exemplary for that airport. BD2412 T 18:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  But what encyclopedic purpose would that serve?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  The purpose would be to illustrate the typical activity of a given airport at a given time. This is not much different from showing a picture of a tiger in the Tiger article. No single picture will be illustrative of every possible instance of a tiger, but the snapshot is still informative. BD2412 T 02:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  "a snapshot" and "at a given time" immediately runs against the fact we are an encyclopedia, that we are supposed to be looking reasonably long-term/enduring factors, and not what happens day to day. We can add and update that long-term coverage as it happens, but we should be far away from trying to keep WP up to date with information that is changing in the short term, as would be the case of an airport's destination list. Masem (t) 02:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  As I said, it is the same as having a photograph of a tiger. Or, for that matter, a photograph of the airport itself, since airports tend to undergo steady renovations, extensions, and so forth. BD2412 T 01:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  The matter of determining whether the list from a particular date is exemplary for the airport sounds arbitrary to me. Additionally, people will see an outdated list in the article and inevitably attempt to make corrections, and you will have to find a way to justify reverting all of their edits. Sunnya343 (talk) 01:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  If someone updates then they will either be correct to a new as-of date or they will be incorrect. If they are incorrect then either revert them as incorrect (as is frequently done across the encyclopaedia today) or correct them (as is frequently done across the encyclopaedia today), if the updates are correct leave them. If reverted then the project is no different to how it was before, no gain no loss. If the article is now more up-to-date then the project has benefited. Thryduulf (talk) 02:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  My comment above addresses BD2412's proposal, which, as I understand it, is to have a complete list of destinations from a particular date that is considered exemplary for the airport. Therefore, nothing [would need] to be updated (that is, until editors somehow decide the list is no longer exemplary). Let's say the list of destinations from July 2023 is deemed exemplary. If a person makes a single change today, the list will no longer be a snapshot from July 2023. You can either revert that edit or update the entire list every time someone modifies it, which would defeat the purpose of BD2412's strategy. In conclusion, this proposal would be difficult to carry out. Sunnya343 (talk) 02:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Look, it's a tautology. A list that is exemplary for its time will always be exemplary for its time. For example, a list (or a prose description) that demonstrates the height of activity of a particular airport in the 1970s will always demonstrate the height of activity of that particular airport in the 1970s. BD2412 T 02:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think I understand what you were saying now. Nevertheless, two questions remain: a) How often would you "refresh" the entire list, and b) How would you respond to editors who just think the list is outdated and (in good faith) proceed to make individual corrections (e.g. today British Airways ended service to Zakynthos, tomorrow Ryanair starts flying to Warsaw) - i.e. the status quo.

  In any case, a complete list of destinations at a single point in time is far beyond what's necessary to communicate the scale of an airport's activity. See the paragraph I wrote in the HAL Airport article that starts with On the civilian front for, in my opinion, an example of how to convey that information without providing an exhaustive list of destinations. Sunnya343 (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Except a tiger doesn't change its stripes every quarter. Honestly, the comparison to a tiger is rather bizarre and suggests that there isn't a common understanding of what this discussion is about. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 06:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Orange Suede Sofa: no, that is not what I am saying at all. I am not saying that a given airport is like a specific tiger on a specific day. I am saying that there are thousands of tigers in the world, and we choose one picture of one tiger to represent all of the topic, Tiger, although there will be many tigers that do not look like the one selected. BD2412 T 03:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)