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I would characterize Orfeo ed Euridice as Gluck's only well-known work. Given that, I question whether he should be portrayed as "one of the most important opera composers of the classical era", unless there's something about his operas that influenced later composers. Does anyone disagree? -- Ortonmc 06:32, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Is the "Willibald" an important part of his name? Wouldn't Christoph Gluck (with an umlaut) be a more common article title? RickK 06:35, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This is a mistaken claim based on a flawed article by Gerhard Croll. The wealth of Gluck's bride was rather modest.--91.115.57.135 (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Christoph Willibald Gluck | |
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Gluck, detail of a portrait by Joseph Duplessis, dated 1775 (Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna) | |
Background information | |
Birth name | Christoph Willibald Gluck |
Origin | Bavaria, Germany ![]() |
Occupation(s) | Composer pianist |
In view of the strong consensus against using popular music infoboxes for major composers I am moving the Gluck infobox here (complete with flags, 'occupation' pianist etc.) for comments. I am leaving the picture in place. Thank you. --Kleinzach 01:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a decent bio; its works list is incomplete, and (partly per above discussion) the importance of his reforms seems to me to be a little understated. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 22:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Since it is still unknown when and where Gluck's parents got married, this claim is pure speculation.--Suessmayr (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
This is false. Gluck's remains were disinterred in 1890.--Suessmayr (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Czech, German and French WPs all identify Gluck as German.
Given that in the late 18th century, the ethnically German linguistic and cultural realm, taken broadly, included what later became the German Reich, plus parts of Austria-Hungary (including parts of Bohemia) – and given that Gluck was born in Bavaria – the following, seemingly polemical footnote has been excised:
The sources mentioned exhibit disagreement over geographic semantics, not ethnic identity. Sca (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Why dont you want to call him "german"? Gluck was born in a place that was and still is the centre of Bavaria. His parents were Alexander Johannes Gluck, born in Neustadt/Waldnaab (now and then Bavaria), and Maria Walburga (her family name is unknown). We know two grandparents, the parents of Alexander Johannes: Hans Adam, whose birth place is unknown and who worked as forester in various places in Upper Palatinate, now and then Bavaria, and Anna Maria Köttnath. We know her father, Philipp Köttnath, born in Erbendorf in Upper Palatinate. And we know Hans Adams father, Simon Gluck, born in Rokycany near Plzn, Bohemia. So, Gluck himself and his father were born in Bavaria, probably his mother too, because it was common then that a couple marries and settles in the wife's home village. Additionally Walburga was Patron saint of their region. One of the two known paternal great grandparents was born in Upper Palatinate, too. That leaves just one Bohemian-born great-grantparent, who had a german first name and familiy name, too. The source i used is: Gerhard and Renate Croll "Gluck - Sein Leben, seine Musik", pages 11-17. According to this book and to the International Gluck Society, Gluck spent his childhood in Bohemia among German native speakers, and since his mother must have been german as well, it is highly unlikely that Czech was Glucks first language or that he spoke German "poorly", and there is no source that documents a single czech word written by Gluck, while there are texts by him in German, French and Italian (Croll, page 17).--Malzkorn (talk) 10:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I am Czech, a patriot, but I have never heard about him as a Czech. Yes, he lived for time in Bohemia (as many many other Germans), but it doesn’t make him less German than, say, Goethe (who spend a lot of time in Mariánské lázně (Marienbad)), or Caspar David Friedrich (many of his paintings were made in Českosaské Švýcarsko (Böhmische Schweiz)), not mentioning Mahler, Freud, Husserl, who were born in Bohemia. 83.208.252.159 (talk) 23:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Gluck's obsequies on 17 November 1787 at the Paulanerkirche included no music at all. He was consecrated "in der Stille" (in silence). His De profundis was only performed on 8 April 1788 as part of Gluck's Requiem mass at the Kirche am Hof.--Suessmayr~enwiki (talk) 15:24, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Christoph Willibald Gluck/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
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==Composers Project Assessment of Christoph Willibald Gluck: 2009-02-21==
This is an assessment of article Christoph Willibald Gluck by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== ===Summary=== This is a reasonable composer biography. It covers his professional and musical accomplishments well; there is limited discussion of personal items (marriage is the only notable personal item mentioned). I'm a bit surprised that, given his relative importance in the history of opera, more is not made of this -- it isn't even mentioned in the lead. Influences on following generations are mentioned, but the significance of his reforms seems in some ways actually understated. (Maybe I'm too used to reading articles that have too many peacock terms in them.) The works list given here is clearly incomplete; the German WP entry for Gluck lists more works (but it isn't clear to me that it's list is complete). The article has no inline citations, not even for quotations. Article is B-class; good, but room for a few improvements. Magic♪piano 22:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 22:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I think it should be added that Upper Palatinate was part of "Germany", the german speaking lands, back in Gluck's days, too. As well as it was a part of Bavaria, then, as it is now. Maybe you could write "Upper Palatinate (now part of Germany, then part of the Holy Roman Empire)" or just "Upper Palatinate (now and then part of Bavaria)"?--Malzkorn (talk) 11:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Germany and Italy did not exist before the Congress of Vienna in 1815. Will you change all those articles too?Taksen (talk) 04:56, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
According to the German Wikipedia, which is often more trustworthy than the English one:
"Gluck was born as the first of nine children. As the place of birth is usually given Erasbach.[2] He was baptized on 4. July 1714 in Weidenwang,[3] at that time belonging to the parish Erasbach. Since the place of birth in baptismal registers is not given,[4] it is, up to today, speculated.[5][6]"
The uncertainty is not about being German, but about being born in Erasbach where he was not baptized. These two villages are 2,2 km distance from each other.[2] Church records in the 18th century almost never tell us where one was born, but were one was baptized! Only three years later the family moved to Bohemia, all Habsburg empire.Taksen (talk) 12:51, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
(talk) 19:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC) There were no nations, Gluck was born in a principality that does not exist anymore, still in the German-speaking part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. It is safe to say he was German and it is hard to imagine he could not speak German; in the 19th century, 99% of the Bohemians near the border spoke German, not Czech. None of his letters are in Czech, some in Italian, but we cannot say he was Italian or Czech, like Smetana or Dvorak. If someone was born in 18th century Prussia or Hamburg, we say he was German. Why make an exception for Gluck?Taksen (talk) 05:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Taksen, Regarding nationality, of the three nationalities attributed to Gluck in reliable sources (German, Bohemian, and Austrian), the last seems to be the one mentioned the least often. That is why I removed it. Some sources omit his nationality altogether (for example, the biographical notice by Julian Rushton in The Viking Opera Guide, now the The New Penguin Opera Guide), which is what we have done in the past. This seems like the most neutral approach to me. Why do we have to give his nationality, when whatever one we choose will in some way be unsatisfactory? --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I found this in [3] written by Felix Bamberg. "Von Salieri hat er [Gluck] später gesagt, daß dieser allein ihm seine Manieren ablerne, da kein Deutscher von ihm lernen wollte." I would like to know which book on Gluck Bamberg used. Then there is the text on Gluck's stone in Zentralfriedhof [4]. I dislike Heartz, he introduced nonsense.Taksen (talk) 05:58, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
An American who does not know that near the Czech border German was spoken is not very reliable. Why should we trust Salieri, there is no evidence he was right. I would not go on holidays with Heartz or you. We would get lost easily.Taksen (talk) 20:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
First of all, Gluck was baptized on the 4th, nobody knows when he was born. The Czech Wikipedia says Gluck was a German composer, and has a lot of reliable details on his father's patrons. His great-grandfather came from Rokycany. Gluck grew up in a German-speaking area in North Bohemia, close to the border. To be a Bohemian does not necessarily mean one spoke Czech. There were also German-speaking Bohemians, near the border almost 99%. It is highly likely his father, (grandfather), neighbours, teachers spoke German; they were colonists, and stuck to their language. I added more from Anton Schmid and Ignaz von Mosel.Taksen (talk) 14:28, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I am sorry for you but this article was very superficial and unsatisfying. Besides it had almost no pictures. I changed that. There is no birth certificate, in my experience nobody will be able to find it, so is nonsense to add a date, like 2 July. Robl may like to think he was born on the 4th, but he cannot prove it. Did he talk to a doctor or the priest? No, it is interpretation.
Another thing is that you like to think that what is printed is true. We all know that is not the case. Information needs to be checked and reevaluated. That Gluck was a Czech-speaking Bohemian is nonsense; he was a German-speaking Bohemian. If Gluck grew up in any other part of Bohemia, I would accept that he was Czech-speaking, but not if one grew up in small towns in the north near the German border, where the majority of the population (99%) had a German origin.
Many people think Wikipedia is not a reliable source. I added many (new) details, because I don't want to read over and over the same information on Gluck. What I did was looking for reasons why the Glucks moved so often and to my surprise, I found some explanations on Wikipedia itself or on the web. I am a geographer, so I come to different conclusions than musicologists. I am not very interested in his music and will hardly touch the rest of the article. Have a nice evening.Taksen (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Before Napoleon, the day of birth was not recorded. Every historian knows that. We should not give a birthdate when it cannot be found in the archives. It is unsafe; unless you found a diary or an autobiography. Alois Fuchs, whoever he is, published it in a newspaper. When people are repeating the same for 170 years, it will look like the truth, but it isn't. I am sure you cannot find the original or a copy in the Austrian Archives.
The owner of Wikipedia likes to think that amateurs can have more knowledge than professors on a subject. N.B. Robl is a family doctor and has a degree. Still four sections have no references. How would you call that? I think it is typewriting, it does not look like research at all.Taksen (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
It Kamnitz they know Gluck lived there, but they use the wrong years, so I did not add the source. In Kreibitz they don't know that the Glucks lived there. Is it one of the persisting mistakes? About Kinsky's estate very little is known, it would help if we found more details. https://www.rodoni.ch/proscenio/cartellone/orphee/agluck.html This Swiss website has interesting details, from Gluck himself, but where did they find it? No source is mentioned.Taksen (talk) 21:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
"The musicians of Bohemia do not make use of the recitative which they call an unnatural song, but beside the airs, they employ speeches or pantomime, almost as in our Comic Operas, we intermingle the singing and the spoken dialogue. This music is performed in a country where the Italian is well known and well executed, it is more animated, more theatrical, and it would suffice to praise it to say that Gluck, Wagensiel, Brixi. They think that they are worthy of their talents, and that the Bohemian music is so strange to the Italian that there are few who do not claim to be part of it, as soon as they come to know it. ... of a people, but to perfect their own, which must be the thoughts and efforts of every artist."Taksen (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I translate the sentence referring to Gluck a bit differently:
--Robert.Allen (talk) 09:54, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Joseph Siffred Duplessis - Christoph Willibald Gluck - Google Art Project.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 2, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-07-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 03:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I removed the tag put there by someone who is an expert on birthdays. Please stick to your business instead of panicking, just one day before 2 July. Besides I don't believe in this date. It possible to proof he was baptized on the 4th, but there is no document available that shows he was born on the 2nd. Moreover, we don't need headmasters, we need people that add referenced content. It is a cheap act. Since someone started this article, I assume 16 years ago, there were only 15 references, one per year. I added 35 in two months time. The subject operatic reform is very difficult, even scholars are still busy to find out what happened as a lot of sources burnt. Besides, there are hundreds/thousands/ten thousand articles with too little references on the English Wikipedia. They look like the authors have been showing their skill in typewriting (to keep it friendly).Taksen (talk) 21:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)Taksen (talk) 22:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
For everybody born in Europe before 1810 there is no birthday known, only a baptism record in churches was kept, unless someone (the parents) kept a diary or wrote it down somewhere. People did not "exist" before they were baptized. So 4 July is more reliable than 2 July.Taksen (talk) 22:48, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
The name of the Viennese street where Gluck lived and died is Wiedner Hauptstraße. There is no "Wiedener" Hauptstraße. Gluck's exhumation on 29 September 1890 was widely reported in countless newspapers, for instance in the Neue Freie Presse of this day. Why brainless Wikipedia bots are fighting against an increase of documented information in articles, is beyond me.--Suessmayr (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)