This Wikimedia Commons photo(scroll down for three cropped versions) is an official photo of the Trump campaign. So it would probably be the best one to put at the top, right? I will propose to do so, because it's obviously a vast improvement over the one at the top now. It can always be changed again, but I think an official photo is far preferable to a photo that is not official.Anythingyouwant (talk) 12:13, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- Not tiptop.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- It's official, and it's an improvement. Right? Shall we go with the full picture, or a cropped one? I favor the full one, because that's really the official one.Anythingyouwant (talk) 12:51, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- It's not official. They simply took the photo from my Flickr, and it is not superior to the C photo above. It's the work of a webmaster simply looking for photos to use, and in one case if you scroll down further on that page you can see a scrolling arrow on the right side of the photo, where they quite obviously just screenshotted their screen and inserted the photo. Calibrador (talk) 14:03, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Calibrador: Nothing at the donaldjtrump.com site suggests that your March 2013 photo was taken by the Trump campaign (which didn't even exist back then). From June 2015 on, however, this photo actually has been (in both the legal sense and the Wikipedian sense) one of the "official" photos published (or republished) by the campaign.
- See Black's Law Dictionary ("official. Authorized or approved by a proper authority <a company's official policy>"). If you say "it's not official", you're (in theory) making a claim that you're a proper "authority" -- meaning, that the Trump campaign has delegated to you the power to act legally on its behalf. (Black's.)
- More on this interesting issue at Spotlight on Gage Skidmore, Political Photographer, Creative Commons (June 17, 2016). --Dervorguilla (talk) 12:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Anythingyouwant, I agree that the official photo of the campaign is a good compromise. The cropped version should be used for infoboxes and other areas where a Trump photo needs to be within a box of some type within an article. I still prefer the current, longstanding image in the Trump article infobox, but the cropped version of the one you have brought here is a good replacement. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- If it's cropped though, the flag becomes much less visible, and you lose some of the officialness. Whether it's the work of a rogue webmaster or the work of a coordinated campaign hierarchy, it's what they've decided to use, at least for now. Note that they have cropped the photo slightly at the bottom, so we could too.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:37, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
There is zero support for my suggestion here. In contrast, there was clear consensus for image C above, so I will go ahead and insert it. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 23:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- No, there wasn't clear consensus for C over any other photo. In fact, from what I can see, it's 9 for C and 9 for E (AKA "current photo"). That's not a consensus by any sense of the imagination. Even 8:10 wouldn't be a clear consensus. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:57, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
User:Winkelvi, please revert yourself. As to image C versus E, the tally is an overwhelming landslide, 12 to 7, meaning over 63% favor C. Preferring C over E:
- Jean-Jacques Georges
- Snake bgd
- Calibrador
- Anythingyouwant
- MrX
- Display name 99
- ShadowDragon343
- Devorguilla (-1 for C versus -5 for E)
- TexasMan34
- Zigzig20s
- TL565
- Darthbotto
Preferring E over C:
- Writegeist
- Winkelvi
- Chase
- Proud user
- CFredkin
- JFG
- KnowledgeKid87
- Davey2010
Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Update: Now 13 to 7 (65%) favoring C. If we factor in the ambiguous comments from Objective3000 and Buster7, we have 64% favoring C.- MrX 02:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Look again. There are comments by editors who expressly stated they preferred E or stated they didn't know what was wrong with keeping the current photo. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:41, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Winkelvi: Besides those listed above, who else had made a comment that should be considered as preferring one photo over another?- MrX 01:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- As I already stated, look at the discussion entire. Before the !votes started. Some are interspersed, but the opinons for the photo that was already present are there. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- User:Winkelvi, do you intend to keep on reverting the image, without naming anyone who's not on the two lists that I compiled?Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:19, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Did you look for the other opinions stating they wanted the original photo to remain? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:21, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I looked for all opinions comparing C to E.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Since you are having trouble counting, I'll go the good samaritan route and assist you: Writegeist, Chase, MelanieN (she noted another photo was "pretty good" but expressed her desire for the current photo to remain), Proud user, CFredkin, JFG, Knowledgekid87, Objective3000, Winkelvi for E. Snake bgd did not express favor for C, he simply said he thought the photo should be updated - that's minus one from your list; Dervoguilla likes D, so that's another off your list. Which brings us to 9 for E, 10 for C. Not a "landslide", not even a consensus - we don't count votes. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- MelanieN should not be counted for either pic unless she clarifies; she said "I don't think we should use either of these pictures [A or B]. Can't we find one where his eyes are open? The one currently in the article infobox is better than either of these." and then when C was presented she said "Yes, this one is pretty good." Objective3000 merely said "Support whatever is already there without looking. How many times has this discussion restarted?" which indicates that Objective3000 did not compare the two pics and would be happy with leaving either one there. Snake bgd said "Agreed it should be updated" in response to "I like this one [C] better : it could actually replace the current one in the infobox." Dervoguilla liked B and D, but also definitely expressed a preference for C over E: "Pic A: +3. Pic B: +5. Pic C: -1. Pic D: +1. Pic E (current): -5." So, I think you're clearly wrong on all counts, User:Winkelvi.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:17, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Anythingyouwant: I updated my analysis yesterday. "Points: Microphone absent = +1. Eyebrows not elevated = +1. Low-contrast background = +1. Teeth, eyes, gaze, date = 0 (inconsistent). Scores: Pic A: +3. Pic B: +3. Pic C: +1. Pic D: +2.5. Pic E: +1. Pic F: +1."
- The "official photo" (Donald_Trump_speech_2013.jpg) also scores +3. --Dervorguilla (talk) 10:59, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Anythingyouwant, he won't tell you because they aren't there. He just pulled a similar stunt on Talk:Mike Pence. Go ahead and restore the photo. This is a simple case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. TL565 (talk) 02:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Enough already! You are now clearly hampering the process because you don't like it! Stop playing games! TL565 (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Now he's BSing on this page. He just doesn't stop does he? TL565 (talk) 02:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Winkelvi: I did. Besides the users listed above, one dismissed the question entirely (Stemoc); one said "support whatever is already there without looking" (Objective3000); one expressed a preference for a photo that is neither C or E (1990'sguy); one selected C then stuck his comment (Buster7), and one said "Yes, this one is pretty good." referring to C (MelanieN). This seems like a firm consensus to me. Would someone like to do the honors? - MrX 02:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- So... you are seriously asking someone to ignore the discretionary sanctions rule placed on this article or are hoping someone will do it as a proxy? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:03, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Given the evident consensus in the tally of comments above, anyone who places image C into the article will be on solid ground, and if you feel like pursuing some ridiculous quest to obstruct that, you can expect to have your conduct in these related articles thoroughly examined.- MrX 03:12, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- I also must note some of the E votes are just people saying "I don't like Gage Skidmore." and should hold little weight for something like this. TL565 (talk) 03:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @TL565: Is there any evidence of users saying "I don't like Gage Skidmore"? Otherwise this is WP:OR and should hold no weight. Chase (talk) 04:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- One example here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&diff=738465430&oldid=738464393 TL565 (talk) 04:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase my question, Do you have any proof of a user that is stated above in your "consensus" that they said this, otherwise, why state it at all, if we arent using that editor to state our claim? You named someone that doesn't even have anything to do with what is being discussed here. WV didn't even use that user to support his claim. Chase (talk) 04:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Wait, Question!? Why are we discounting the people that preferred a different picture? @Anythingyouwant: Your percentages count for people who had an opinion on either C or E (which the percentage is a little skewed by how you did it). If we took into account everyone's preference, your percentage would be much smaller. Because not just 20 or 22 people had an opinion on a photo. Much more people did. Why aren't we taking their preference into account when discussing majority? Which is what you are trying to establish with this "over 50%" tactic. For example, take into account the Republican Party presidential primaries, 2016. Donald Trump had to receive over 50% of the delegates to get the nomination. Say we only took into account the delegates that voted for trump; Trump received 1,441 delegates (Pic C), Cruz received 555 (Pic E). If you only take into account those delegates, which is what you went ahead and did, Trump won 72% of the vote, but if you take into account the other delagets he actually won 58% of the vote. Do you see how skewed this becomes? Chase (talk) 04:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- When exactly should consensus be declared and who gets to declare it? It's seem to be a vast uphill struggle to get any picture replaced lately and I supported the current photo for a while until now. TL565 (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Which is why another photo shouldn't be instated until this discussion ends. Based on a clear consensus, not by a made up on, or by an uninvolved major third party (administer). Or everyone agrees that a vote is suffieicient, in which case we give everyone the chance to vote, including the people that voted for other picture, if Pic C and E are the final two. There is a reason Pic E is the picture. It withstood long discussions, and it shouldn't be removed easily. Especially with a lessthanorequalto picture. Chase (talk) 04:38, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- The purpose of a discussion is not simply to look at the number of votes, it's to weigh the pros and cons of the arguments and reasons presented by each side. The primary reason given for E, if a reason is even given, is that it is because it's the current photo, and the "current photo is fine." If the current photo was fine, then there would not have been a discussion to attempt to replace it every couple of weeks. Several other of the votes for E either gave no reason, gave the simple explanation of it being "better," or admitted to not even looking at the photos being discussed and supporting E because it is the incumbent photo. On the other hand, a case was made by several of those supporting C for why specifically the photo is better to illustrate the subject as the main photo for the article, all of which you can read above. A consensus doesn't mean 100% of people have to agree, and if one side gives better reasoning and arguments than the other and that is still ignored, then there is a big problem. It's obvious that the consensus exists to replace the photo currently in use. And the only other photo that has received significant consensus is C. Calibrador (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Calibrador: Yes, let's ignore the question that I asked and state thousands of meaningless arguments that don't even relate to the conversation that I proposed. But since you continue to iterate that same argument over and over and over until its beaten to death, honestly, the current photo doesn't need to have a reason for support. It's already had a discussion about it and has had stated reason's why it is a good photo and should be on the article. If anything, the arguments for the photo being presented should have better reasoning. It has passed the test of getting onto the article yet through a discussion. Consensus has NOT been reached to replace the current photo with photo C. Also, you are the one that counted votes for photo C and for photo E. Please refer to my first statement of how your majority consensus is biased. You can't pick and choose to benefit your preference, thats not how wikipedia works. Chase (talk) 08:06, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- To be honest I could not follow your incoherent, rambling analogy. I must be stupid, sorry for my ignorance. Calibrador (talk) 08:08, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Now you are just being hostile. My point was that out of all the people that were stating a preference, you were taking a portion of those to skew a percentage in your favor, and leaving out the people that chose a different picture. Taking into account ALL of the preferences would have changed your percentage. Chase (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- I don't even know what you are referring to, I only came up with one count/summary as a part of an off-hand comment, and it wasn't meant as any sort of official tally. Calibrador (talk) 08:15, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- If it wasn't meant to be anything official why have you used it to refer to a consensus and implementing it into the article? Chase (talk) 08:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Used what? I never used a tally as the basis for the existence of consensus. Refer to my argument above that you claimed I've made over and over and over and over again. Calibrador (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Here; The majority you were speaking of is obviously the percentage and votes that were arrange by Anythingyouwant. Chase (talk) 08:30, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- I did not use Anythingyouwant's list, I've barely even glanced at it only to look at the substantive conversation taking place below it, I used common sense. Calibrador (talk) 08:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- I can't believe the most controversial discussion about Trump on Wikipedia is about changing a goddamn picture. How long should this drag on? TL565 (talk) 13:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
This has all the earmarks of an "official" RfC. An RfC can - and often does - go on for up to 30 days. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:15, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Winkelvi: Per WP:CON policy, this is a consensus-building discussion, not an RfC. For helpful background material see WP:TALKDONTREVERT policy. A consensus-building discussion tries to resolve a dispute in a way that reflects the encyclopedia's goals and policies while angering as few contributors as possible. Editors with good social and negotiation skills are more likely to succeed. --Dervorguilla (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Sanity plea
The notion that it's about quality of arguments is great, when there is some basis in p&g for any argument, or when there is a uninvolved closer to make that call. It's completely worthless when all arguments are subjective, even when claimed to be otherwise, and all participants are responsible for evaluation of all arguments. That simply does not work, ever. I guarantee that I will always see my arguments as more weighty than those of my opponents—that's why they are my arguments—and I would expect no different from them. As I read it, we're wasting time analyzing editors' ambiguous comments. Part of the solution is to remove the ambiguity, a simple poll, where the preference is clearly stated using boldface at the start of the !vote. Follow that with your reasoning, which only purpose is to try to influence other !votes. Ping all previous commenters on the issue. After perhaps ten days, count the !votes, implement the majority preference, and move the fuck on. If you want to allow multiple weighted choices, give each !voter 6 votes that they can distribute as desired between 1, 2, or 3 choices. I am uninvolved here, and I don't have much of an opinion, but I would be happy to set up and administer said poll. Just tell me what pics to include, and whether to use weighted multiple choices. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: A directly related discussion is underway at the Consensus policy talk page. Comments welcome. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- There ain't no sanity clause!--Jack Upland (talk) 09:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Dervorguilla: Thanks, I think I'll sit out the policy debate, at least for now. Can't say I really understand how current policy bears on this poll, but I do know that things went a lot smoother when it was used to decide the last Hillary photo dispute. That's good enough for me. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:28, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I thought the consensus was for picture C? Zigzig20s ( talk) 11:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- There should be but certain people are determined to drag this as long as possible so it gets archived and swept under the rug. TL565 (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well, this really has to end. If there is consensus for Picture C, we need to update the infobox and be done with it. HRC has a US flag in the background and so should Trump. We want Wikipedia to be seen as a reliable, non-partisan source of information. Right now both candidates are not treated equally as far as their infobox pictures go, and that makes Wikipedia look bad. Those of us who love Wikipedia--please let us stand with the consensus and go with Picture C. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:50, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- (0) @Zigzig20s: Former Senator Clinton's official senatorial image in her politician infobox is not a Wikipedian precedent for Trump's personal image in his person infobox.
- (0.1) Sadly, Clinton is now suspected of manifesting a growing physical disability to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President. So Trump's pic may soon have to be compared with Sen. Kaine's, not Sen. Clinton's. And Kaine's tie and collar are centered, not askew.
- (1) Willkie's personal image in his person infobox counts as the most analogical Wikipedian precedent for Trump's. Willkie's infobox image has no "US flag in the background"; nor has it since it was created nine years ago.
- (2) The Trump entry in Encyclopædia Britannica counts as the most analogical tertiary source for decisions about the Trump entry in Wikipedia. Its § Politics image (Skidmore, CC by 2.0) does have a "US flag in the background"; its lead image doesn't.
- (3) Nor does the official image in the most official source: Trump's company biography. --Dervorguilla (talk) 07:44, 10 September 2016 (UTC) 04:18, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Photo Support
26% Stated no specific support, but weighed in: Snake bgd, Anythingyouwant, {Dervorguilla}, Graham, MelanieN, Buster Seven, Stemoc, 1990'sguy
- I didn't include people that didn't specifically say Support, for example I like this one or The current one should be changed was not included. Chase (talk) 01:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @CCamp2013: I like this one is a nonconformist way of saying Support and should be treated as such. Assuming it's clear enough which "one" they're referring to. Same for other things such as Yeah I agree, agreeing with a preceding support. The added hassle of parsing all this out, and the potential for ambiguity, are reasons for the structured poll I suggested above, but it's necessary here. The current one should be changed is largely useless for our purposes, unless you wanted to allocate 1⁄4 to each of A, B, C, and D, which in my opinion wouldn't be worth the effort. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:23, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: Most of the ones that said "I like this one" or "yeah I agree" stated it about multiple ones, so that is why they were not included. Until they make it more clear. Chase (talk) 06:26, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @CCamp2013: Then we should start over and do it the right way. Costs very little. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:33, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: I have no problem with that, I was just showing that there was zero consensus established yet. I was also trying to start the discussion about chosing a system to establish the consensus. Chase (talk) 06:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @CCamp2013: I thought I started that discussion in the preceding subsection. I see nothing wrong with a structured poll with weighted multiple choices and pinging of previous participants. The only question remaining in my mind is whether we need two rounds of voting, lest we go with an option that received only 35% of the vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:45, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: I feel like for this picture to acheive consensus, it needs to garner at least
25%50% more than that of the closest percentage or 50%, which ever comes first to determine if the second round needs to be had. If that makes any sense. Chase (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @CCamp2013: If we get ourselves that deep into it, we'll be debating this until Christmas (or least until after the election). Just go with two rounds and be done with it, one round with all 5 choices, and a run-off with the two leaders. One week for each round. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: I am fine with that. That'll make this whole process a lot easier. Chase (talk) 07:01, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's fairly evident who the two leaders are. Calibrador (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @CCamp2013:
Your opinion? ―Mandruss ☎ 07:18, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Never mind. A round 1 might change the voting somewhat by bringing in additional participants, but unlikely enough to change the leaders. I have opened the run-off. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:43, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Adding 'Dervorguilla, ½' to B, 'Dervorguilla, ½' to C; removing from "Stated no specific support". --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:40, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- How about you not include the vote that stated "Vote for whatever is currently there without looking." They did not look at the proposed photos whatsoever, as they admitted. Calibrador (talk) 06:25, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Calibrador: It doesn't matter their reasoning, support is support. Just like supporting a photo because it isn't taken by a certain person is also valid. Chase (talk) 06:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
What is the difference in indication if someone said "Strong Support" vs. "Support"? Calibrador (talk) 06:34, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- In some kinds of discussions, some see a difference, some don't. In something like this, absolutely none. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:35, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Why? Calibrador (talk) 06:44, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- For starters, because it would give some people more say than others in the outcome. If we gave more weight to "Strong Support", I promise you I would !vote "Strong Support", as would anyone else with a lick of common sense. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:48, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- What if some people are more indifferent than others? Calibrador (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- With the weighted-multiple-choice system I described, each !voter would have 6 votes to allocate between 1, 2, or 3 choices. But they wouldn't be required to cast all 6 of their votes. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:52, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- i'll support the current one ..not a fan of images where the person is looking AWAY from the camera and at the same times looks like he just silent-farted, i'll take the one with 1 of the 2..--Stemoc 08:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
|