This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: No consensus, 21 January 2024, see discussion. no consensus, 5 August 2021, see discussion.

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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

I added the COI tag, based on the semi-declared COI by the page's creator, and the possible COI by the most recent major contributor. BilledMammal (talk) 00:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anassjerjawi: I think this org was also known as "Euromid Observer for Human Rights", the org that was initially declared unlawful by the Israeli MOD and to which the current naming was added. (https://www.euromid.org/en redirects to the current name). If that is the case, then the history founding and so on needs updating to explain that background.

Ramy Abdu was chairman then as well. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-gaza-city-gaza-strip-palestinian-territory-21st-sep-2014-dr-ramy-abdu-73592109.html Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have some questions about WP:DUE and WP:INDISCRIMINATE for the section "Migrants and Refugees". The information is verifiable but we can't, as INDISCRIMINATE requires, put the data in context with explanations referenced to independent sources as EMHRM's work is cited, but not covered. Because of this, we also have to ask whether we are giving due weight to the work by covering it when other organizations only cite it.

There was also an element of WP:OVERCITING in the section, such as a link to the homepage of an organization included as a reference that I have now removed. This is possibly a product of the involved COI, as documented above. In relation to this, it is worth mentioning that the final source is a private video, added by said individual with a COI - while our lack of access to said sources doesn't preclude their use, our inability to verify a source added by a user with a COI is at a minimum problematic. BilledMammal (talk) 11:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of response, and the continued issues involved with the section, I've removed it. If someone wants to restore it, lets have a discussion about whether it has sufficient coverage first. BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I already took out the video as inappropriate, the mass removal of other material seems quite unnecessary and I have reverted same until there is clarity as to why properly sourced and relevant material should be removed.Selfstudier (talk) 10:06, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I explained that; above:

"The information is verifiable but we can't, as INDISCRIMINATE requires, put the data in context with explanations referenced to independent sources as EMHRM's work is cited, but not covered."

I then continued:

"Because of this, we also have to ask whether we are giving due weight to the work by covering it when other organizations only cite it."

Incidentally, it seems a little bad form to object now, rather than leaving a comment the last time you came by. BilledMammal (talk) 10:44, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the video which was the only valid complaint made and that is still the case so no comment is/was required. I have the distinct impression that rather than trying to improve the article you are seeking instead to post fact justify your prior deletion proposal, it would be better if you allowed the dust to settle and revisit this after some time has elapsed. Give other editors an opportunity to chip in and see if the article can be improved.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Selfstudier (talk • contribs) 10:55, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One can improve articles by both adding appropriate content, and removing inappropriate content. I do both, and I believe you do too - and just as I wouldn't cast aspersions on you for doing so, I would ask that you do the same.

Now, to focus on this section, I recognize that you disagree with me, but it is a little bit difficult to have a discussion unless you are willing to explain why you disagree. BilledMammal (talk) 11:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you have specific issues with some material in the article, either tag it or explain it properly. Mass removing sourced material is rarely the right thing to be doing.Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I could explain the section properly, I would - but that requires sources I have not been able to find.

We are both here for the same purpose; to build the encyclopaedia. Sometimes, that means editors disagree, but in such circumstances the editors are expected to communicate. I have communicated my position, and I would ask, in the spirit of collaboration, that you do the same. BilledMammal (talk) 11:31, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have already replied, several times. Your reasons for reverting the material are invalid.Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the rationale for removal. This is not "data" in the sense used in INDISCRIMINATE. It is a narrative account of the activities of the organisation. If it would benefit from more context, this could be added, but too much detail would be undue. The only issue I see is that not everything is equally strongly sourced, but if there's problems with the sources which are contested it might be better to discuss these case by case. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would disagree; "data" is described as a collection individual facts, such as "EUHRM presented X report", "EUHRM present Y report". Whether these are presented in a list or as prose doesn't make much difference, we still need explanations referenced to independent sources, explanations that we don't have as while the reports have been cited, they haven't been covered. With that said, I appreciate that you have justified your position, and while I continue to disagree I'm willing to leave it as is for now and see where it goes. BilledMammal (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can/should we remove the COI tage here? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If there are no recent edits by editors with a CoI, I don't see why not. Of course, we should be prepared to re-add it if that situation were to change. Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the tag. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This revert ignores WP:BRD in order to serve the interests of an editor with an obvious and clear agenda, and a pointy edit to boot, deciding only just now, while there is a deletion discussion ongoing, that the article is not neutral. Selfstudier (talk) 13:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the template, please keep in mind the instructions regarding removing it.

To have a neutral article about this organization we need significant and independent coverage of this organization; otherwise, we're just regurgitating how the organization presents itself.

Please, show me this coverage; then we can add it to the article and resolve the issue. BilledMammal (talk) 13:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there were no sources at all, an NPOV tag would require evidence of non-neutrality. It is the tagger who has to provide justification for a tag. Where is it? Zero^talk 13:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The justification is that there are no independent sources, and it's impossible to write a neutral article without independent sources. I think that's self-evident; how neutral do you think Julius Caesar would be if our only source with WP:SIGCOV on him was Commentarii de Bello Gallico? BilledMammal (talk) 14:07, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the Commentarii was the only source on Julius Caesar, we would still have an article on him and an NPOV tag would be vigorously opposed. You misunderstand the notion of neutrality, which is with respect to the sources we have and not with respect to our suspicions of what other sources might have if only we can find them. Zero^talk 00:40, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DUE weight is a NPOV issue. If something has no coverage (or plainly insufficient coverage), including it is WP:UNDUE and is therefore a neutrality issue. --Aquillion (talk) 18:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]