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I have a huge point of view issue with this article. the temperament section reads like an advertising brochure. The facts are that german sheppards are known to attack children. http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/Files/Information/Compare.pdf suggests that sheperds are one of the more dangerous dog breeds. You might think that they are 'poorly trained' but that's your opinion, the facts are that this breed attacks humans and it should be reflected on wikipedia.
There have been several global jurisdictions that have banned the german shepard, and i think this article needs to explore why that is. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=german+shepherd+banned&btnG=Search&meta= Obviously this article has been written by German Sheppard lovers. It's time it was reformed to reflect truth. It is the opinion of New Zealand Kennel Club that this dog might be all right, but this is clearly a contested issue and the article needs to reflect this --124.168.45.182 (talk) 13:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
German Shepherds are EXTREMELY popular in Russia and ex-USSR! i just wanted to say this ) --KpoT (talk) 13:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently wrapping up a detailed review of this article (my first, incidentally). My initial impression is that the article has some problems with neutrality and may not meet Good Article criteria yet. I will explain when I have the full review posted, so please stay tuned. Morrand (talk) 15:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Here it is. I hope this is helpful.Morrand (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Although this article is close to good status, it isn't quite there yet. There are some problems with reaching a neutral tone in the article, and some of the images need to be related better to the topic. One image needs to be justified or deleted to correct a fair-use problem. Given these problems, the article is not yet ready to be promoted, but given its overall quality, it is not reasonable to fail it immediately. Therefore, it will be on hold for at least a week to allow time for improvement, with particular attention to the following items (subject to further discussion):
The prose is mostly clear, and grammar and spelling are good, but there are some style problems. For example, ". . . the breed is among the top most registered in most registries." The phrasing most registered in most registries sounds redundant. Could this be rephrased to something like, ". . . the breed is among the most registered."?
References to "The Kennel Club," though they seem to be technically correct as that is the name of the organization, should specify the UK Kennel Club in order to avoid confusion with others. One photo refers to "The Kennel Club (UK)" and that may demonstrate the best solution.
There are several comma splices in the article. In each case, and I am quoting my old grammar text here, there are two main clauses linked by only a comma. For example:
In each case, the run-on sentence should either be split up, or one main clause subordinated to the other, in order to improve clarity. For example, write, "The ears stand large and erect, open at the front and parallel. They often are pulled back during movement." Or, "The ears . . . the front and parallel, but they often are pulled back . . . ."
The lead section unambiguously defines the subject of the article. It does not establish the notability of the subject in the first sentence, but it does later in the lead paragraph. The lead includes citations; perhaps, more than necessary, but this is not a fault (per WP:LEADCITE). The article is around 24 KB (3150 words) for which a two-paragraph lead would be appropriate per WP:LEAD. However, the current lead seems to do the job adequately and wouldn't disqualify the article for GA status.
The layout is acceptable. The use of sections and subsections in "History" is good, but some subsections under "Description" seem too short, and it may be better to combine those. "Temperament", "Health," etc. are short, but probably justifiably so because they are distinct topics. Appendices are in correct order per MoS. Images are positioned well, though from "Description" through "Health" there seem to be so many that they are out of position with the text.
There is some jargon, though generally linked out to a definition (withers, for example) and in the context is appropriate (in this case, as an indirect quote of a Kennel Club standard).
"It is believed that careless breeding has promoted disease and other defects," without stating by whom, is not a good construction. The guide at WP:WEASEL is a wreck right now, so I can't point to that in good faith, but its basic point—that phrases like "it is believed that . . ." tend to undermine neutrality—still seems to be valid.
This article has many, many references. The reference format closely follows the style guide for shortened footnotes. Just about every sentence--in some cases, every phrase--is cited in-line from somewhere, and while that is encouraged by the Manual of Style, condensing the footnotes would help improve readability. One exception to the ample referencing is at the end of the "In Popular Culture" section, where there are no citations given. There are wikilinks to the appropriate articles, though, so that suffices.
I did not find any original research in the article, and the regular editors seem to be actively eliminating it as it comes up. With all of the citations given, there seems to be no room for original research anyway.
The article defines the breed and gives some examples of its importance, which address most aspects of the topic (but see below under "Neutrality"). It stays close to topic, with little to no wandering of focus. Summary style is used well to avoid excursions (for example, by linking out to the dysplasia articles rather than explaining dysplasia in this article).
The article does not appear to be acceptably neutral. For example: ". . . the appendage 'wolf dog' caused discontent after media capitalised on the name to run a scare campaign advertising that 'half-wolves' had been let loose in Britain." It seems true that the dogs are not half-wolves (as explained further in the Talk page) but as worded (capitalised, scare campaign, advertising) this is not acceptably neutral. An alternative: ". . . as the name, 'wolf dog,' led many people to believe that Alsatian wolf dogs were wolf-dog hybrids" (assuming the reference supports this interpretation).
There also needs to be some coverage of the German Shepherd's reputation for aggression, given how widely it seems to be believed. For example, Cesar Millan (in Cesar's Way) lists German Shepherd Dogs among the breeds often found in shelters after being abandoned by dog-fighters. Even though the reputation is most likely undeserved, it does need to be addressed in the article body, just as it was addressed on the Talk page. The most reputable source that I could find (with a quick search) saying that German Shepherd Dogs are dangerous is the Petcare Information and Advisory Service of Australia (see [1]). (It would be fair, however, to then explain that GSDs are not inherently dangerous: "Aggression and attacks on people are largely due to poor breeding, handling and training." Dog Breed Information, [2])
In short, some of the comments in the article Talk, suggesting that the article is tilted towards fans of the breed, appear to be justified, and this is the main concern that keeps me from promoting the article to GA status right now.
The article is acceptably stable. Most edits in the past thirty days seem to have been vandalism and subsequent reverts. There has been some editorial debate on the talk page, but it does not seem to have escalated to edit warring. On the whole it appears that the article is being edited in a controlled and deliberate manner, which speaks well for its continued stability and its ability to hold Good Article status once it achieves it.
One image is troublesome from a fair-use standpoint. The photo of Geraldine Dodge needs a better fair-use rationale than "low res, no revenue loss" (as given on the image page); to justify a copyrighted photo, it really needs to cover all ten points listed at WP:FU and also needs a rationale that fits under the fair-use criteria there, not just for the article on Geraldine Dodge but also for its appearance here. The image page also doesn't seem to meet WP:IUP because it does not fully explain the ultimate source of the image. As indicated in the copyright template boilerplate as currently worded, use of the image in the article on Ms. Dodge may qualify as fair use; use of that image elsewhere (such as here) may not. There may not be an easy solution to this problem that will allow the photo to stay.
Otherwise, the photos accompanying the article are both relevant to the topic and fairly used. Some captions need improvement in order to link the image to the text it illustrates. The first two pictures have good captions that describe both the picture and its relevance to the text, as do the last two. Others do not: the caption, "The Kennel Club (UK) standard. . . ." does not explain how the picture illustrates this, and is not tied into the body text. Ideally the Kennel Club standard being illustrated should be mentioned and explained in the body, if the caption is left as is, or some other method of linking image and text used. Similarly, the image of the child and dog is itself good (not to say "cute,") but needs to be tied back to the article with a longer caption, such as, "Shepherds bond well with children they know," which is taken directly from the text.
I notice that this article was last reviewed for WikiProject: Dogs on August 13, 2008, and the B-quality rating was maintained at that time. Since this is a recent nomination for GA, it's entirely plausible that the article has been much improved since then, but the two ratings should be reconciled if this does get promoted. I haven't used the WikiProject's guidelines in this review, but would certainly welcome commentary along those lines from any of the project's reviewers.
It's a little disturbing to see that this article doesn't even mention schutzhund. Schutzhund is a HUGE, HUGE part of this breed, as it was and still is used heavily to determine breeding-worthiness. To see it totally omitted is a shame. Bburton (talk) 18:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Police dogs? I was thinking of adding something to the page about german shepherds as police dogs or how german shepherds are so intelligent--Sheller4 (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything about hindquarter angulation being more a trend in the states as opposed to Europe. Before I got my GSD, my mental image of a GSD had the US typical large sloping rear. 97.121.49.167 (talk) 08:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
It says the weight for males is betwen like 60 and 90 but most german shepards i know are pushing like 110 and their not fat of anything their just big dogs and there very muscular (although they all came from the same father and the dad is huge so i dont know if that makes a diffrence). OIr maybe thats just show dog weight —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.123.156 (talk) 00:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The article says that German Shepherds have a reputation for aggression along with German Shepherds are responsible for more random bitings than any other breed, and have a known tendency to attack smaller breeds of dogs. Both of these points are extremely subjective. First, only poorly bred, poorly trained, and poorly owned GSDs are aggressive. The only other time they seem aggressive is if someone is watching scutzhund and doesn't know the sport at all.
I know of a GSD who has a "Random bite" on his record. This "random bite" was committed after someone had broken into the owner's home (with malicious intentions) and they threatened the owner. The GSD defended the owner and when the police responded - the perp was taken to the hospital with dog bits and the dog was reported with "a bite incident".
As for smaller / other dogs - my own dog has a dog-on-dog bite on her record. Someone refused to leash their pit bull and it attacked me one day - my GSD jumped in (she was on a leash and I was walking her) and pinned the pit bull. Of course, witnesses only saw the end result - my GSD with her paw on the put bull holding it on the ground before it got up and ran away. My dog got charged with the incident when the police were called - even though people admitted that the pit bull was not on a leash.
Good GSDs are not aggressive in any way - they are highly protective. They are the #1 breed for personal protection and either #1 or #2 in the US for military and police work (net to the malinois) and #2 worldwide for police and military (behind the malinois).
Also - the reporting is misleading. If you have a city of 100,000 people and 50,000 own GSDs and one person owns a different breed - if that one different breed bites 5 people the numbers (according to how it is reported) still would make the GSD look worse if .01% bit someone. The statistics should show bites per dog per breed if they want to make it legitimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draggar (talk • contribs) 13:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
That story is relevant to you, but is, in the end, merely an anecdote. I could also tell you the anecdote of how, on my way to the office today, I rode my bike past a woman walking two German Shepherds. Despite the fact that I was a half dozen feet away, one of them lunged for my calf and tore my pants with its teeth. (Whereupon the owner scolded the dog.) Upon visiting this website, I was not surprised to learn of their aggression. I believe they should be banned. 140.209.23.41 (talk) 18:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps rather than a ban, German Shepherd owners should be required to complete some sort of dog training. Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with editing the article, so I'll leave it there. 140.209.23.41 (talk) 16:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The German Shepherd shown in the photograph which accompanies the article has been made to stand in a forced and unnatural stance. I understood that the Kennel Club of Great Britain discouraged this practice because it aggravates the hip problems which some members of the breed are prone to. Regardless of what the Kennel Club think, no normal dog would choose to adopt such a stance. Maybe it would be better to replace the picture with one in which the dog is standing more naturally? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll agree with this - I'm sure Max Von Stephanitz (sp?) is rolling over in his grave seeing the destruction being done to their hips - especially in the American (AKC / non-FCI) ring). Look at the initial lines, even up until the 50s or 60s, they're square like the Belgian shepherds. All you need to do is look at any FCI / SV / Seiger standard and you'll see that the back is not supposed to slope that much.
I recently purchased an eight week old german shepard, can anyone tell me when I can expect her ears to be erect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.62.25 (talk) 04:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Look, it's really very simple.
The two sentences are these: These claims have been refuted on the basis that German Shepherds represent a higher proportion of the population than other breeds. However, reports indicate that Shepherds are over-represented when the statistics take into account the difference in population.
The first and the second sentences are contradictory. The first says someone (who?) refutes the earlier findings that GSDs bit more often that other breeds, arguing that because there are more GSDs than many other dogs, there are more biting incidents. The second sentence cites a report that contradicts that, saying that *even* allowing for the numbers of GSDs, over-representation isn't a factor, and the prevalence of biting incidents is still high.
Unless there's a citation somewhere making the argument enumerated in the first sentence, then that first sentence is speculation. It's opinion and/or original research, but it's not a fact (even by Wikipedia standards). It's this kind of bad writing and lack of logic that drives anyone who actually knows anything about a subject away from Wikipedia. Cheers, Neale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.210.149 (talk) 18:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Here is the response I posted on my talkpage, which hopefully clarifies this: Both sentences are backed up by the same source, that's why it was written the way it is. The source says (paraphrasing because I don't have time to dig out the deadtree source at the moment) "German Shepherds, Rottweilers, (and a few other breeds) cause injuries needing medical attention more than any other breed, they are also the breeds with the highest population counts but if we normalise the population they are over-represented". When I wrote that piece of the article I thought it was important to clarify that GSDs have a high population but there are reports that indicate the attacks:population ratio is higher than other breeds. However, it isn't a statement of definite fact that they are overrepresented its merely a statistic worked out in that particular report (the South Australian Health Commission Injury Surveillance Journal). ♣ Ameliorate! 02:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I am amazed by the poor writing and reference sourcing in this section. A couple references are made to old, Australian-based reports, which include no information about the methodology or validity of the studies. If I have time to do the research I will try, but I imagine there is someone with more knowledge and better acquainted with revising wiki pages than me who could review and update. I think, other than the first sentence, most of the statements here are of questionable integrity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.251.243.83 (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This breed is the main police dog in Brazil. For guard dog, the Fila Brasileiro is the most popular dog in Brazil today. Agre22 (talk) 14:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)agre22
The result of the move request was: Page Not Moved Ronhjones (Talk) 22:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
} German Shepherd Dog → German shepherd dog — per WP:NC; dog is not a proper noun. The New Mikemoral ♪♫ 02:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions."This is because the white coat is more visible, making the dog a poor guard dog..." The capability of a dog being able to guard should not be affected by how visible the dog is. Guard dogs do not engage in commando ninja attacks. One could say that a clearly visible dog would make a better guard dog. I think this needs to be looked at unless there is a citation linking visibility to effectiveness of guarding. Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 16:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be reasonable to include something on the continuing UK controversy between The Kennel Club and many of the UK GSD breed clubs and breeders. Is there anyone in the UK that feels they can write something regarding this issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.205.166 (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm astonished this isn't addressed in the article: there is major controversy in the breed about how the show lines of dog have such sloping backs they are essentially crippled, whereas the working type / non-show lines continue with the straight backs the breed always had with far fewer problems. See: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2844&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=244&f=0 where the problem is specifically stated to be "the tackling of unsoundness in the hindquarters of the breed and in particular in the hocks of some dogs". The issue was raised in [Pedigree Dogs Exposed], which catalysed the debate. The documentary also mentioned that the GSD breed is controversial for culling white dogs, however healthy they are. GM Pink Elephant (talk) 12:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
The breed has been plagued with this "new" standard of Hyper-activity. However, the classic Shepherd is NOT hyper-active. Many breeders have cross bred with Belgian lines of the Malinois and pass them off as German Shepherds. I have owned a few in my younger life and never recall the dog to be hyper. They were protective, and watchful of strangers, but mellow and calm unless provoked or played with. Don't get me wrong, they loved to play, but did not over do it.
The more I look at that source for longevity, I think we're making a mistake by just copying the numbers. First off, the low end of the lifespan we're using comes from the "vet school data" column, and for every breed, the number in that column is dramatically lower than from all other sources. It makes some sense; these are the ages of dogs that died at vet school hospitals. It doesn't say anything about the normal lifespan of the animals; it speaks solely of dogs that were hospitalized, and naturally that number will come out dramatically low. (Not a lot of healthy animals end up in the vet school hospitals, I would think.) I suggest that the low number be omitted; it's simply not useful as a gauge to animal lifespan. Also, we're using uninterpreted raw data; it's original research for our article to conclude from http://users.pullman.com/lostriver/breeddata.htm that the lifespan of a GSD is 7-10 years. All we can reasonably conclude from it is that the average longevity of animals in vet hospitals is 6.8 years (not a very interesting number, actually), while the average longevity of surveyed animals is 9.7 years -- the number given in the last column in that table. I recommend we stick to the dogs-as-pets-and-working animals numbers, not the dogs-dying-in-vet-hospitals number (since most dogs don't die in pet hospitals.) I'd like it even better if we had a real reliable source, since Wikipedia is about the only source suggesting anything as low as a 6.8 year lifespan. --jpgordon::==( o ) 19:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Some defenitely false info in the article
In *Origins*, the first line: In Europe during the 1700 BCE , attempts were being made to standardize breeds.
and later: To combat these differences, the Phylax Society was formed in 1791 with
and: In 1899, Von Stephanitz was attending a dog show when he was shown a dog named Elkein Shekletor. Elkein was 1/4th wolf. Elkein was the ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.93.84 (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Fixed those mentioned above (1800s; 1891; Hektor Linksrhein)
---
Lp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lakiopaalu (talk • contribs) 13:57, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
I could be wrong but I read in a book by animal planet that since their ears are pointed up they allow for good air flow and are less prone to ear infection. Also that they are more likely to get dirt in them and should be cleaned once in a while. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.164.136 (talk) 16:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Over half of the links to breed standards in the infobox are dead links. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contribs. 07:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
It appears that footnote 8 is not enough to establish that wolves were involved in early breeding of the GSD. See: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html where it distinguishes between an old and a new studbook. The old studbook evidently made explicit mention of wolf stock, and the new studbook seems to have hidden this information. P0M (talk) 12:08, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Under "History" is says 'Trey was here', but if I go to the edit tab, it says "===History===", so I'm unable to correct the vandalism.194.28.125.14 (talk) 00:12, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi all, my first Wikipedia edit.
I have updated the main article photo, I have just edited the sharpness slightly and corrected the colour balance to what I believe is more accurate.
==
LaurenceGough (talk) 18:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
This dog was not ".Created by Adolf Hitler to destroy the Jews". The Tag that it is referencing does not even mention anything of this nature. I would edit it myself, but I want to make sure it is done properly> Can someone fix this ignorant mistake? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.231.71.62 (talk) 00:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Their behavior (alpha monitoring, aggressiveness, intelligence) as well as their look seems sort of wolfish. Were the sort of bred back to exhibit wolf traits?
69.255.27.249 (talk) 04:11, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
the article already addresses why they were bred. Wickedjacob (talk) 12:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
A "weasel word" notice has been added. I don't see any weasel words. The section is concise, well cited, and accurate. I am going to remove the notice. If it is re-added, please use this talk page to explain your reasoning. Thank you. Wickedjacob (talk) 12:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
I want to let everyone know what I did and why I did it.
First, I restored the old pic of the GSD on the mountain. My logic for this was that the new picture showed a stacked dog on a show field standing over a frisby. This is a less natural setting for the picture and less ideally representative of the breed. It also lacked the visual weight of magnitude of the mountain picture.
Second, I restored the picture of the sables that were deleted without explanation by the same person who changed the picture of the mountain dog. There were no sables represented on the page with that deletion, but most other major colors allowed by the breed standards are represented in the article; saddle black, blanket black, all black, black/red, black/tan, bicolor.
Third, the pictures were scattered randomly throughout the article on the left and right. I moved pics to the right side for clarity.
Fourth, because I couldn't get the pictures that show the toplines of the show dogs vs the working line dogs to work with two pictures, I combined both open source, free use images that existed before into one to allow clarity in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sablegsd (talk • contribs) 08:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm thinking the "playing" section doesn't belong. It's pretty much material for a how-to guide, and isn't specific to GSD's anyway (many breeds need active play, and some need a heck of a lot more than a GSD.) --jpgordon::==( o ) 17:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC) german sheperds are the best dogs in the universe ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.213.220 (talk) 15:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, the title. The Dogs/Dogs breeds taskforce recommends "The article for each breed shall be titled based on the apparently most-common official breed name from the major registries." At the least, the introductory term for the breed should be the official name of the breed. Every authoritative book on the breed, and every Breed Standard in the English-speaking world uses the words "German Shepherd Dog".
Secondly, the first sentence. The definitive article, "The", followed by the partial name of the breed followed by the breed-name translated into German. Because the definitive article is present, the translation into German should follow the normal principles and be "[Der] deutsche Schaferhund", not "deutscher".
Thirdly, other parts of the first paragraph. The name, "Alsatian Wolf Dog", was used for a brief period and is now archaic - used only in a historical context. In the present day, the German Shepherd Dog is not also known as the Alsatian Wolf Dog. The Kennel Club in the UK re-named the breed "Alsatian (German Shepherd Dog)" and later, in 1978, changed it to "German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian)". It is currently "German Shepherd Dog". The use of the breed-name "Alsatian" was not limited to the UK. Canine Control Bodies throughout the world have dealt differently with the naming of the breed.
The German Shepherd Dog is not in the Herding Group in every country around the world. In a few countries, it is in the Working Group.
I don't know how the Article became so badly downgraded: C-Class for quality. On reading the article, I concur with the poor grading. Going through the history and this page, I suggest that the article has been vandalised by pedants to the extent that any substantive contributions are frightened away.
One of the sources cited a number of times, does not exist as far as I can ascertain. If it does exist, it is a little-known book, and may not be authoritative. A search of the ISBN reveals a different book; same publisher, same year, but different title and different author. Conan, Michel (2000). The German Shepherd Handbook. Hauppauge, NY: Barron's. ISBN 0-7641-1332-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.181.236.146 (talk) 06:14, 28 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.181.236.157 (talk)
The article is lacking the very fundamental information that the sheperds breed in former East Germany were very different. The lines had eliminated Hip problems and the dogs were very strongly breed towards power and health. After the Wall fell, both lines started to mix up. Today only very few pure East German lines remain.91.39.123.104 (talk) 23:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I think you are right. I have made an attempt to describe different types and styles of GSD, but don't know any reliable sources with a neutral POV apart from a couple of webpages. Any help would be appreciated. 49.181.236.156 (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
One can't start the article with the popular culture, popularity and a history section that is so infinitely long with so many black and white pictures– before the breed standard appearance and temperament. Also, images and galleries are not discouraged, and collectively do have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Galleries are indeed not discouraged, and this is a misunderstanding that still lingers around, since 2005-6. -> Please see also this discussion here, Talk:Charles Marion Russell.
Images are typically interspersed individually throughout an article near the relevant text (see WP:MOSIMAGES). However, the use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. This is typical for dog articles.
Hafspajen (talk) 02:54, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Hafspajen and 49.181.236.157 - I have just restored the article back to the version of 04.14 19 April; I am not advocating that this is the correct version but it is taking it back to a stable version.
@IP 49.181, please consider registering an account and come to this talk page to discuss changes. You have done a lot of work improving the article but the way to address the concerns Hafspajen raised is to have a discussion on this talk page, not to undo all the work you have undertaken. I have always found Hafspajen to be helpful and willing to discuss matters and he does seem to have tried to initiate discussion here in the section above.
Can we try to work this out here, please? SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
The following appeared on my talk page whilst I was beginning a section on Elbow Dysplasia schemes:
LOL, 49.181.236.157 (talk) 09:06, 20 April 2014 (UTC) (formerly User:49.181.236.146)
This edit request to German Shepherd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have a great picture of my german shephard dog Asko. It would be an honor to share it with the world. FragX (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Post it here, but it has to be a just as good or better quality picture than we already have. Hafspajen (talk) 20:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
If you're going to use shepherd in the name of this dog it should not be "Shepherd" but "shepherd". Since when did the name of this dog count as a proper noun? It should be "German shepherd" not "German Shepherd". Jodosma (talk) 20:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I wish to engage a discussion, and don't want to make edits without discussing first. But I think that using the AKC breed standard to describe the dog has certain POV problems. The AKC does not own dogdom, they are simply one interest group and many breeders and owners of dogs do not conform to kennel club definitions, which tend to put aestheticism over everything else. This is especially a problem with working breeds, whose talents and character may be more important than appearance alone.
I don't want to take away from the AKC or any other kennel club,they are knowledgeable people, but they are hardly without strong views about how the breed should proceed in the future that isn't necessarily shared by the vast majority of GSD owners. German Shepherds are not a product of the AKC and their's is but one albeit important view of what a German Shepherd - or any other dog - is. So any description of the breed based on AKC aesthetics should be identified as such, as a specific rather than a generalized viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.100.185.215 (talk) 22:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Are you talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd#mediaviewer/File:GermanShep1_wb.jpg
Can we agree that an image that represents the breed better than the current one should be found?
Dogperson3d (talk) 21:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
No mention of The Littlest Hobo? 174.91.7.64 (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Done by another editor some time ago. 49.181.236.156 (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Would it be clearer if this section was changed into a list form from the current paragraph form? As an example Rough Collie page uses the list form in this section and I think it's much easier to follow and comprehend than this one. Popular Culture Scientist (talk) 12:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Is there any real reason German Shepherd redirects here, German Shepherd Dog. Why isn't German Shepherd the location of the article? -Deathsythe (talk) 19:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved all, boldly assuming that the target for the last move should be White Shepherd. Favonian (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
– The current names are blatant transgressions of WP:COMMONNAME. Most reliable sources, both dog-specialized and general, give the name of the breed as "German Shepherd" or usually as "German shepherd" outside of dog-specific publications (that capitalization fetish is hardly universal, even in dog publications; I don't want to address the capitalization issue at this time, because it's still under discussion at WT:MOSCAPS more broadly, and I doubt consensus will be reached without a site-wide RfC advertised via WP:VPP and WP:CD). "German shepherd dog" (lower case) could make sense in prose, but only when used in a context in which one might misunderstand "German shepherd" as a reference to sheep-herders from Deutschland. It's totally redundant when used with the capitalized version "German Shepherd", and redundant 9 times out of 10 even in lower case. If there is any case in which disambiguation is needed somehow, use " (dog)". This would then match the practice used for all other domestic animals (e.g. Siamese (cat), and so on). "Dog", "Cat", "Horse", etc., are not added except in the unusual case that it's almost universally used that way for the particular breed in spoken and written English. E.g., no one says "I have a Norwegian Forest and an American Quarter. But no one says "I have a Beagle Dog and a German Shepherd Dog". The opposite is generally true of dog types and landraces, e.g. mountain dog, sled dog, etc., which should not be renamed. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 09:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, "the proper name" argument here is weak. One could take the hair-splitting, nit-picking position that the "proper" names of various breeds of cat are Siamese Cat, Manx Cat, Himalayan Cat, etc., and some breed registries do in fact use these overwrought names, as if they can't remember what kind of registry they are, or think their members will forget what kind of animal pedigree they are submitting. And some cat books do likewise; my shelf has The Manx Cat by D. W. Kerruish on it. But none of these articles are at such an article name, despite them being more ambiguous without "Cat" than German Shepherd is without "Dog". The only exceptions are breeds with "cat" as an integral part of a compounded formal name (Ocicat) or where use is nearly 100% consistent in including "Cat" (capitalized or not) – the only example I can think of is Norwegian Forest Cat, obviously because use of "forest" adjectivally (done because "foresty" isn't a word) is too ambiguous for nearly everyone. (In Category:Cat breeds, I see one article, the last, that needs renaming, and two that are landraces that should have " cat" and should not be in that category.) There's a similar pattern evident in horse/pony/donkey, cavy/Guinea pig, rabbit, pig, etc. article naming (often using "Breedname animaltype" instead of "Breedname (animaltype)"; the disambig style needs to be made consistent). Why should dog articles be magically different? It's pure over-disambiguation to satisfy specialist geek-out tendencies. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contribs. 07:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Missing from all this ignorant discussion is the fact that the name comes from the German: Deutsche Schaferhund. "Hund" is part of the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.84.7 (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
You only have a look at a list of required products:
• meat;
• bones (except fish and tubular bones);
• seafood;
• eggs: boiled eggs, crushed egg crack;
• curd;
• porridge: buckwheat porridge and made of finely ground barley porridge;
• grated or chopped vegetables (carrot, zucchini, pumpkin, cabbage);
• fruit.
In the first two months it’s necessary to feed the puppy six times a day, and then every month cut up to two times after it is six months old. Don’t forget about the free access to clean water.
[1]
Vavan4uk (talk) 20:19, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
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Forgive my computer ineptness... I am of the old school, long-hand and struggling typist. I have some corrective comments to make in the Wikipedia section on the breed. It doesn't look like this format will accept photos... how can I input both comments and pictures? I have been "a GSD guy" since the mid-1940s, a long-time SV Zuchtrichter, prolific breeder, etc. Your help and advice would be appreciated. Here `tis:
I will try to send my comments to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_Shepherd as well, but I will also attempt to paste it below your note or attach it to this memo. (Apparently, the e-mail format doesn't include the photos, so please tell me how I can send those and to whom.)
Re: [ Ticket#2015090710006884 ] Suggestion to propose specific changes to the German Shepherd Dog listing. on the article's talk page at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_Shepherd>. Sent via juno 8 Sept 2015. Suggestions from Fred Lanting, a.k.a. “Mr.GSD” and author of books on the breed as well as many other subjects: 1. Please replace the photo that now pictures a dog with an extremely steep pelvis and a low withers. I am attaching a couple of better photos, showing correct toplines. These are my own dogs, so there’s no copyright problem.
German Shepherd Dog (original and German name: Deutscher Schäferhund)
2. Corrections to current Wikipedia list: “Traits” -- Under “Coat”, add: “Long coats allowed as of 2010.” Acceptable colors for the show ring (SV Standard): Sable (grau), Black-&-Tan (two types: saddle, and “bi-color” marked like a Rottweiler), Solid black. No brindles. White markings penalized. Litter size: Historic average slightly over 7; rarely over 12 pups. In the paragraph on its name, please add: “Worldwide, it is the most popular (numerous) breed.”
Under DESCRIPTION, please note: Change the wording under the picture to: Many or most GSDs have black masks. In a later paragraph about “a variety of colors”, add “All, except the white dog population and severely faded dogs, have variable amounts of black in their coats.” At the end of that paragraph, change the wording after “serious faults” and substitute this: “White GSDs are accepted in UKC shows and they also have their own clubs and shows.”
In the next paragraph (coat length), delete “making the long-hair variety rarer”. It is less common, but NOT because of it being recessive… B&T is recessive to sable, but far more common! CORRECTION should be made in the following sentences: “Treatment of the long-hair variation differs across standards; they are accepted but [do not compete] with standard coated dogs under the German [SV system]. and UK Kennel Clubs [drop that and substitute]: The Kennel Club (“The KC”) of Great Britain allows longcoats to compete equally in the conformation (“show”) ring. While they can compete with standard coated dogs, [it is] considered a fault in the American Kennel Club, but not in the United Kennel Club (UKC), which is the second-largest registry in the Americas. (If you wish, I could furnish a photo of a top-winning longcoat GSD.)
Intelligence
[I suggest you add a sentence]: However, intelligence can be defined as the ability of an individual to survive in its environment, so a Beagle may be more “intelligent” than a GSD when it comes to hunting rabbits. Man mistakes rapport and willingness to obey for intelligence.
Temperament
I strongly suggest you drop the sentence: “They are not inclined to become immediate friends with strangers.[17]” GSDs may not be Golden Retrievers, but a normal upbringing will result in a people-friendly dog in almost all cases. Exceptions should be culled from any breeding possibility.
Change: Aggression and biting “Well-trained and socialized German Shepherds have a reputation of being very safe. However, in the United States, one 1996 source suggested that German Shepherds are responsible for more reported bitings than any other breed and have a tendency to attack smaller breeds of dogs.[19]” The reasons for more bite reports: People are not likely to report a bite from a Toy Poodle or Chihuahua; the GSD is much more numerous than most other breeds, so of course, the number of incidents will be greater.
For the same reasons, I urge you to drop the following sentence: “An Australian report from 1999 provides statistics showing that German Shepherds are the breed third most likely to attack a person in some Australian locales.[20]”
Under the heading, “Use as working dog”: In the section dealing with guide dogs, you should add: The majority of dogs at The Seeing Eye, Inc. (oldest and largest blind-guide school in the USA) are German Shepherd Dogs. And just before “History”, there is a spelling error: “One Mexican German Sheppard, Zuyaqui, was…”
In the breed history section you mention the Altdeutsche Schäferhunde. If you are interested, you may use the photo I have inserted below, of one of the few remaining such dogs, owned by an old shepherd I visited on one of my many annual trips to Europe. This one in Exloo, Netherlands is 13 years old in the picture and only then retiring (a white GSD was being trained to take his place… also pictured, at work): (2 photos)
Under the heading, “Popularity”, you need to correct “When the UK Kennel first accepted registrations” to: “The Kennel Club in the UK…” The name of that registry has all 3 words, “The Kennel Club”.
For additional reading and to reference my comments, you may notate the following books:
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). The Total German Shepherd Dog -- by Fred Lanting; ISBN #0-86667-056-4
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Canine Hip Dysplasia and Other Orthopedic Disorders -- by Fred Lanting; ISBN #0-9764685-0-6
For many of my numerous published articles (magazines and websites) on the breed, see: http://siriusdog.com/article/author/Fred+Lanting
Fred Lanting, Consultant, judge
Original Message ----------From: Wikipedia information team <info-en@wikimedia.org>
To: mr.gsd@juno.com Subject: Re: [Ticket#2015090710006884] Suggestion: update the German Shepherd Dog listing
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 19:54:35 +0000
Dear Fred Lanting, my suggestion would be to propose specific changes on the article's talk page at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_Shepherd>. Please note that Wikipedia articles are not written based on experts' opinions, but based on reliable published sources. Your book thus will be more helpful as a reference than your personal expertise. Yours sincerely, Ingo Schroder -- Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/
---
09/07/2015 09:19 - Fred Lanting Mr.GSD wrote: Ladies and gentlemen: I had not previously looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd , but in perusing it, I saw several minor errors, and one glaring omission, the latter being that you have not referenced the leading book on the breed, "The Total German Shepherd Dog", published by Hoflin Publ. Ltd., (previously by Alpine Publ.). As I have judged and lectured in more than 30 countries, I have the credentials (see attached) that should be included in your wiki article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd. I have been known as "Mister German Shepherd Dog (Mr.GSD) worldwide since the early 1970s. I would be willing to review and detail (modify) the current wiki piece. To whom may I send suggested changes? Fred 50.21.144.17 (talk) 15:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Mr.GSD@Juno.com Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).
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Is in not true the German Shepherd and Alsation are not indeed the same thing? I believe German Shepherds to generally be of a more pure breed from German Lineage amd Alsations to be bred from a more English lineage to look the same as a German Shepherd. I have generally, for one this found Alsations to have a more pointy snout and to be more, generally speaking fair in colour.
If someone could either comfirm this, or set me straight, I would greatly appreciate it. RyanvR
I don't have the sources on me, but they are indeed the same dog. The British changed the name from GSD to Alsatian after WWII because of anti German feelings. Many other countries did aswell, however, many have since changed the name back to GSD.
In response to appearance, some breeds do vary slightly from country yo country. I believe the English line of Labrador Retrievers are a bit taller and not as stocky as their American counter parts. 173.61.237.150 (talk) 04:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
"Alsatian" is still the popular name for this breed in Britain, despite anything the The Kennel Club may say. The usage is certainly not historical, as the article suggests. --Ef80 (talk) 21:26, 22 September 2016 (UTC) I am British and have owned two GSD'S I would disagree that 'Alsatian' is the popular name. The name German shepherd is more commonly used in everyday speech Alsatian is an alternative and declining name that is less popular than GSD in British English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
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The references include Coren, Strickland, von Stephanitz, Kern, Francis G. (1990), and Choron, without saying which of their books or other publications were the source. I guessed for Coren and Strickland, but someone with access to their books needs to figure out which books are meant and give full publication details. I wanted to put in Human-animal communication#Working Dogs a sentence about how the dogs communicate to their trainers, especially to report back after they are sent to scout, and Coren and Strickland probably address this, but that would need correct references. Kim9988 (talk) 22:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
I think some improvements to this page would be explaining the different types of coloration and having pictures of other types including; bicolor and white German Shepherds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niccotrone (talk • contribs) 21:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
If you work with Shepherd at first time, it would be better to hire an experienced instructor. You can begin training with a two-month old puppy, put it through feeding, so that your pet will have an incentive to get sweets for following an order.
If you decided to train your "German" all by yourself, we suggest you to have a look at basic mistakes are made in the process of training.
Educating a future champion such commands as "Sit!", "Stop!" and "Down" don't make such mistakes:
• the order is followed after the direct effects;
• strong jerk of the leash and arm-twisting;
• the order is followed staticky and under the same circumstances;
• lack of command and gestures;
• long-term studies.
Is that back-coated or black-coated?
Hello, I was wondering why this article has been added to the category "wolf-dog hybrids"? The nickname "Alsatian Wolfdog" (or for instance in Finnish, "susikoira" - literally "wolf dog") has came from the GSD's appearance, especially in the time when they were often more or less greyish sable/ greyish agouti in colour, not because of "crossbreeding with a wolf". --Canarian (talk) 17:06, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
It seems a bit odd that Hitler's dog is first in the history section, it has nothing to do with the history of the breed. At best that paragraph should be moved to notable individuals section. 81.164.190.175 (talk) 20:15, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
The wording of the aggression and biting section seems to be slightly unclear. I believe that what they are claiming is that once the high number of German Shepherds as pets was taken into account, the large number of the reports on biting and aggression made sense due to the big population. The percentage and ranking was then comparatively decreased significantly. This seems to be what is intended, but the wording made me question whether or not this was clear. Cranein (talk) 01:10, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
I propose merging King Shepherd into this article. Currently the King Shepherd article contains only two varifiable sources, one is an obscure dog registry and the other is a mention in a magazine article which does not describe it as an independent breed, just a sounder version of the German Shepherd, further they are yet to be recognised by any of the major kennel clubs. Cavalryman (talk) 02:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
I propose also merging Berger Blanc Suisse (White Swiss Shepherd Dog) into this article. Despite being recognised by a number of kennel clubs, as with the White Shepherd above there are a remarkable lack of attributable secondary sources available for these dogs. The merger will maintain the page history and as sources become available the article can be recreated. Cavalryman (talk) 10:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC).
We need a broader -- not just on this page -- discussion of what the threshold is for breeds as opposed to species. I agree with El cid here; recognition by a major breed organization should suffice even if there are sparse sources. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
William Harristalk 23:34, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Sometimes, understanding is best achieved by presenting the material on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so. There are other times when it is better to cover notable topics, that clearly should be included in Wikipedia, as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context. A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic.
This follows on from this post. I recently removed from this article some ill-written content sourced mainly to perfectdogbreeds.com; part of my edit summary was "in what world is perfectdogbreeds.com an independent reliable source?" That edit was reverted (with some corrections to the text). So the question is: do we want an encyclopaedia sourced to perfectdogbreeds.com and other junk sources of that kind, or do we want to follow policy and stick to those that meet our definition of a reliable source? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
I propose merging Shiloh Shepherd dog into this article. Currently the Shiloh Shepherd article contains a number of primary sources including multiple citations from the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC), but there is nothing truly reliable about this as a breed, further they are yet to be recognised by any of the major kennel clubs. Cavalryman (talk) 02:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
I propose to merge East-European Shepherd into this article. Currently the East-European Shepherd article contains no sources, the only source I could find was two mentions in David Hancock’s Dogs of the shepherds, both describing it as a variant of the German Shepherd. Both quotes:
Cavalryman (talk) 09:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC).
References
I propose merging White Shepherd into this article. Despite being recognised by the United Kennel Club there is a remarkable lack of attributable sources available for these dogs, currently the White Shepherd article contains almost no RS about the breed, nearly all of the sources that would pass as reliable are referencing examples of white coloured German Shepherds, only the Stockdog Savvy book makes (a truely fleeting) mention of it as a breed based on the GSD. As above it appears to be WP:TOOSOON and in time when more sources become available it can be un-merged. Cavalryman (talk) 01:12, 3 March 2020 (UTC).
User:Lard Almighty, regarding you revert of my edits:
I wouldn't necessarily see it as reliable in any discussion of breed characteristics (although the BBC has been mentioned as a source in the controversy section) but as a reference for the numbers killed at Auschwitz it is perfectly reliable.. I think that's pretty clear. In many articles there are things that are mentioned that go beyond the main scope of the article (in this case the characteristics of a dog breed) and which can be sourced to sources that might not be considered reliable/reputable to back up points relating the main scope of the article but which are reliable/reputable when it comes to backing up other statements (in this case, how many people were killed at Auschwitz, and activity in which GS dogs were involved). Lard Almighty (talk) 10:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
The outline of the dog is difficult to make out and makes the dog's head look skinny and unnatural. I don't know if it's the lighting or what, but I would recommend picking a different photo. Heck, the profile picture of the current photo's uploader would be a better fit than this, or just about any other photo of hers.
For reference, I'm referring to this photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Angel_(8352423165).jpg 68.49.40.87 (talk) 02:09, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
I had considered that one but personally think the other I added shows a better proportioned healthier animal. Some of the candidates I found were:
I think we should avoid an example with a back too sloped, it has been a reckless distortion of the showring breeders that has resulted in an unhealthy breed. Cavalryman (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC).
Hi, the bit under Skeletal health and supplementation that says, "Appropriate calcium levels are vital in developing a strong skeletal system and aid in preventing orthopaedic diseases like Canine Hip Dysplasia" is correct but still potentially misleading. Appropriate levels of dietary calcium in large and giant breed puppies is in fact reduced, but the way this sentence is phrased could lead laypeople to the mistaken assumption that they should provide their new GSD puppy with calcium supplementation on top of its AAFCO-certified large breed puppy food, potentially resulting in excess calcium which can cause developmental disorders and joint problems. Many laypeople may not suspect that there is such a thing as too much calcium to feed a growing puppy, given the way added calcium is advertised in foods for human children. I'm sure no one here would want this article to result in a single puppy being harmed by a well-intentioned but ignorant owner! Suggest editing to "Appropriately controlled calcium levels" or "appropriately limited calcium levels", which will instead suggest that there is an upper limit to healthy dietary calcium. User:Kasreyn (not logged in) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:249:800:2B40:3D5F:FCFD:4B40:66E (talk) 23:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
German Shepherd Human; self assessment on raising a German Shepherd What to consider? What training would the pup need? What training would the adult pup need? Puppy milk or mothers milk? How to take care of a German shepherd. Where to look for a German Shepherd? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.223.181.15 (talk) 1:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cavalryman and BarrelProof: Thank you for bringing up this discussion point. I added the ((Use American English)) template without knowing that there was any contention on this issue. I can't see any strong national ties. The Germany article uses British English. The German language article has no language template but appears to use American English.
I would propose using British English here, mainly because I'm British, and there are a LOT of examples of 's/z' spellings in this article, so we do need to impose a template one way or the other.
In my experience, when you propose a discussion, it turns out that most people are not interested, or you end up failing to reach a consensus, so maybe we could have a vote and come to a decision in one week's time?
Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:45, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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If the lupo italiano is not eligible for inclusion, then why does typing it into the search box redirect to the German Shepherd page?
Also, the sources regarding its genetics demonstrate it is not a hybrid (despite what its creator claimed). Indeed, the second source includes a phylogenetic dendrogram demonstrating that it is pretty much just a GSD variant.
Perhaps, for notability reasons, it should be mentioned that the breeding and maintenance of the animal is State-funded. Mariomassone (talk) 10:11, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Are the traits info have vulgar language or not? JaFryingPan (talk) 05:48, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
"Alsatian" was coined initially by the British military to refer to their working German Shepherd Dogs during the First World War. They took umbrage at the name because of who they were fighting. The name stuck in the UK, but started to fall out of fashion in the 1970s. Much petitioning over the years occurred, and the UK Kennel Club finally retired the name "Alsatian" in favor of "German Shepherd Dog" in 2010. While the name "Alsatian" should remain in the article, it should be explained that it is now officially outdated, although many people still use the name "Alsatian", probably out of habit and local tradition. sugarfish (talk) 01:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)