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I've read about a lot of famous artists, scientist and philosphers being accused of heresy. But i find nothing about that in this text. Have i've been fed bs all this long?! Shouldn't there be a "group" for those people who have been accused of heresy as well as there is a group for those who for example killed themselves by means of immolation? Anyone who has worked with this article who can explain why notable examples have been left out?
While we can discuss what may or may not be examples of heresy all day long, the FACT of the matter is that the whole discussion of what is or is not "heretical" is purely that of one's personal POV. History does not effectually command what was or was not "truth", it simply records who thought and said what as part of a specific "group thought" or POV. Protestants and our beliefs and doctrines ARE by definition "heretics" from the POV of the Roman Catholic Church. From the POV of Protestants, Roman Catholics are being heretical against the teachings of the Scriptures. From the POV of Christians, Jews are heretical.
It's all completely subjective.
The term itself is simply a pejorative, defamatory and demeaning label that we as Christians "stick" on anyone who disagrees with our POV. It's like calling someone "stupid" for a "fool" or whatever other demeaning label we can assign against another human being and child of God for believing what they do for whatever reason (especially when we ourselves have not fully investigated what another might think and why from their POV). One might consider the words of Messiah before applying the label "heretic" to another fellow brother or sister with whom we might disagree: "... Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,'[an Aramaic term of contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. " (Matt. 5:22 ) --Solascriptura 11:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
The concept of heresy is not subjective at all. In any case, that's a highly controversial claim, and one that neither you, nor (so far as I know) anyone has ever given good reason to believe. I don't think this article should commit itself to such a controversial position. Isn't the point just to explain the meaning of the word? Can't we explain what a heresy is without taking a controversial position on some (alleged) fact about heresy? I think the language about heresy being a subjective term should be eliminated. -- Beau Branson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beau Branson (talk • contribs) 19:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Simply stated heresy is a lie as defined by those who claim to know the whole truth. Therefore, heretics are liars who teach contrary to the truth. Blasphemy is an intentional premeditated insult to God. Apostasy is treason to the beliefs of a group to which one previously belonged. Jose Leo (Joseleo (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC))
The best definition I read of the word heresy looked at its Greek roots and defined it as a process whereas a young person would examine the various philosophies of their time to determine how to live their life thereafter. This of course is a praxis of independent thought, anathema to a Catholic church that insisted on doing the thinking for the faithful. Miklos Legrady. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miklos legrady (talk • contribs) 08:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Further to the discussion some way down the page, I really do think these examples could be better. If the point is to show that 'heresy' can be used outisde of a purely religious context, using Darwin as an example will not do. What immediately springs to mind when seeing 'Darwin' and 'heresy' together is that of his status as a religious heretic, as seen by many Christians. Likewise with Copernicus; these were scientific challenges to religious orthodoxy and as such they were labelled religious heretics. Can not more modern examples be found, that do not involve religion at all? this is absurd — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.220.14 (talk) 06:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
--Whamilton42 13:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I think this is an excellent beginning for this article. I do think that Protestantism probably shouldn't be included in a list of heresies though. As a movement, from the Roman Catholic POV, I would guess that Protestantism involves both heresy and schism, two different offenses. It would be helpful to list specific heresies such as Arianism as such, as long as we identify who consideres them to be heretical. Such things should be bodies or systems of belief; the first three items on the list are good examples. (Arianism, Nestorianism, and I can't remember the third right now.) --Wesley
I guess if the CE lists it as such, and the list is attributed, than I guess I can't really argue with including it. I was thinking that just leaving the church is an act of schism, not by itself an act of heresy. A heresy is a teaching or idea. But I should probably go read the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The Eastern Orthodox Church also uses the term, but with slightly different definitions. I don't think they would call it a "legal judgement" since they generally don't have as much "legal" thinking in their theology. I think that early church historians would use the term when discussing things like Arianism, using the term as it was used in the councils. --Wesley
of Protestant beliefs to be heretical.
Does the Roman Catholic Church really reject the 'universal priesthood of all believers', or simply the idea that such a priesthood of all believers is incompatible with the ordained priesthood? IIRC, the Eastern Orthodox church manages to affirm both, by assigning different definitions and roles to the two priesthoods.
I'd like to remind those who edit this page, and other pages referring to "heresies", that the Catholic historical position is a POV which must be noted as such when writing Wikipedia. It is disharmonious with NPOV to describe so-called "heretical" religious beliefs as being wrong, or un-Christian, or rejections of faith. (It is, of course, necessary to accurately report the Catholic POV that heresies exist and are such, though.) This applies equally to "historical" controversies as to more current issues such as Protestantism. --FOo
RK -- Could you please use α β γ type Greek character entities? (E.g.: αβγ ... χψω) The numerical ones are dependent upon your character map and do not display correctly on many browsers/platforms, whereas any conforming browser should display the "spelled out" ones correctly. These are also easier for others to read and understand in the page source than the numerical ones. --FOo
heresy was considered an offense punishable by clerical or secular powers
"Heresy is a value-judgment" is a bit sappy, and passive tense is a symptom of dodging the issue as ever ("heresy was considered an offense punishable...") but there are certain axioms that need to be worked out here, and then set into the entry's opening paragraphs. Please treat the following as stubs to work on: The Catholic Encyclopedia has a useful long entry of "Heresy" as you may imagine: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm Wetman 18:27, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Heresy depends on dogma. Without promulgated dogma arrived at by ecumenical understanding and officially promulgated, no opinions are yet "heretical."
Heresy, like orthodoxy, evolves in history. (The opposing view, namely that dogma exists outside of time from the Beginning and is merely sequentially revealed needs to be expressed in its own paragraph.) No statements about what a community believes make sense outside a historical framework.
Heresy exists within theology
(Your axiom goes here)
I started trying to fix the bad history and speculation in the following paragraph, but I think it may be better off deleted.
First, the "process of legitimation" was in full swing by middle to late first century when Paul wrote the epistles that comprise a large part of the New Testament. On many occasions, he defends his own apostleship, and urges Christians in various places to beware of false teachers, or of anything contrary to what was handed to them. The letters of John and Jude also warn of false teachers. Beyond these, Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertullian wrote their respective treatises against heresies in the second century. At the time Christianity was outlawed; the Church clearly managed to label its enemies as heretics without persecuting them. Assuming those two things always went together is what is anachronistic here. As for whether the word "heretic" had such negative associations, most or all of these writers used enough other, er, descriptive language to ensure the negative connotations were not lost on their readers. Besides, this article is primarily about heresy the concept, not heresy the word.
So, any objections to removing the paragraph, or suggestions for salvaging it? Wesley 03:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Several other religions have concepts of heresy. The Church of Scientology uses the term "squirreling" to refer to unauthorized alterations of its teachings or methods.
The Church of Scientology is a legal U.S. establishment of a cult. Many countries do not recognize the Church of Scientology as a religion and, in some cases, federal action has been taken to remove the Church of Scientology from their borders. This is a poor example for the Other religions section of heresy. Considering that there are many actual religions in the world, find something better and leave the Church of Scientology controversy to the Talk:Scientology group. Adraeus 21:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(2004) The term heresy is increasingly used to mean the holding of ideas that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge; thus, religion is not a necessary component of the term's definition. For example, Charles Darwin of evolution fame is considered a heretic of his day.
I removed this here because "heresy" just is not used in this way by grown-ups, and the slightly tongue-in-cheek use of "heresy" in science, to make a point about its rigidly-held beliefs, has already been touched on in the Bob Bakker mention. More could be added to that comparison of "bad science" to religion. But there's nothing that scientists regard as "heretical" about Darwin, unless the word is to lose all point--- which may be the intention here. Wetman 10:13, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Fortunately, the definition of the term heresy is gradually moving towards general applicability. Religion is not a necessary component of the definition. Wikipedia is not a podium for your personal beliefs. By the way, Charles Darwin was considered a heretic in his day as were Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and others. Additionally, the definition of heresy as it applies in modern contexts is supported by etymological research. I'm re-adding the section regardless of your dogma and will continue to re-add it every time you remove it. Your removal was wrong and I suggest you refrain from speaking on behalf of "grown-ups." All you need is a [good dictionary] ([1] [2] [3]. If such a definition is alien to you or doesn't conform to your perception of the topic, then I think the term has met its objective. Adraeus
00:34, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that this use of the term "heresy" — to refer, e.g., to a scientific innovator — is a metaphor. It is intended to allude to both the difference between the person's views and the mainstream, and the boldness of such a person in propounding these views despite their unpopularity or even despite forceful opposition. It is certainly a very colorful metaphor, and various writers have played upon it extensively, adding "inquisitions" and "orthodoxies" and so forth to stories about resistance to new or unproven ideas. (Consider Robert Anton Wilson's The New Inquisition for one example.)
(The metaphor is also, oddly enough, sometimes applied to innovators who were throughout their working lives considered respected parts of the establishment, such as Sir Isaac Newton, mentioned above.)
In any event, I have to wonder about the importance of describing metaphorical uses such as this in a Wikipedia article — particularly if the metaphor is so contentious. As silly as it may be to argue over whether Darwin "was" a scientific heretic (since it is only a metaphor anyway, since science, business, etc. do not operate by canon law) it may indicate that this is not a matter upon which Wikipedia needs to speak conclusively. —FOo 06:18, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, Fubar Obfusco, but that is incorrect. The described definition of heresy is not a metaphor. It is an actual definition. Webster: "heresy", Princeton WordNet: "heresy". The term heresy is not limited to religious contexts; thus, canon law and "respect" (refer: your comment about Isaac Newton) has nothing to do with this definition of heresy. Presenting an objective and unambiguous model of reality is within the scope of Wikipedia. If you choose to present a topic from one side, in this case religion, you've devalued Wikipedia.
This definition is a logical definition and applies to both religious and other contexts. heretic is defined as "a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion.)" unorthodox has two similar definitions: a) "independent in behavior or thought" (with maverick and irregular as synonyms), and b) "breaking with convention or tradition." So now, heretic is defined as "a person who holds (irregular, maverick, unorthodox) opinions in any field ..." We also find that the antonym of unorthodox is orthodox which is defined as "adhering to what is commonly accepted" and orthodoxy as "a belief or orientation agreeing with conventional standards." Now we have heretical as "independent of behavioral or intellectual constraint imposed by conventional standards", heretic as "a person who holds opinions contrary to the status quo ..." and finally heresy as "a holding of ideas, not necessarily beliefs, that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge" or as "any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position." Heresy can then be likened to a process of continual innovation. It is a constant disagreement with what is.
By the way, for those of you that are religionists simply arguing against what you perceive as an attack from science on a religious concept, understand this: science is not a competing religion. Adraeus 09:24, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Stbalbach: I disagree with your addition to contemporary heresy in which you consistently refer to the usage of heresy as a metaphor. It is not a metaphor. It's merely an alternate definition often forgot by those too caught up in heresy's etymological religious roots. Adraeus 04:17, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(Not able to refrrain from contributing to a lapsed controversy.) This modern use of the word belongs in a dictionary rather than in an encyclopedia entry. Heresy is used only very loosely of scientists etc as a graphic way of indicating divergence from what is standard (only by journalists sexing up a science column?), where it could be replaced with terms like radical, crackpot, maverick etc (each of course with differing tone and implication). But there is no phenomenon of "heresy" and it is not a label that will be used regularly of anyone. Notably 'heretic' is only used predicatively, not attributively: someone might say so-and-so's views were heresy (perhaps with slight mockery of "the establishment's" ruffled feathers), but when was the last time you heard anyone say we 'the heretic Dwarwin' or 'Heretics should not be given research grants.' Flounderer 23:42, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bit about the Italian language calling "eretico" a Protestant, because it's simply false - the common word is "Protestante". Alfio 20:18, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I can't even see the TOC because the opening overview has become as long as the article its self and scrolled the TOC off the screen. The first paragraph should be about 3 or 4 sentences that defines what it is and a high level broad overview with no details. The rest of it needs to be integrated into the article body. Stbalbach 20:55, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"an opinion of private men different from that of the catholick and orthodox church" [Johnson], c.1225, from O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Gk. word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in Eng. bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages. Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein Adraeus 04:18, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
OED3_Atheism.html - saved directly from the OED v3 software. Adraeus 09:56, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Heretics do not define their beliefs as heretical; instead, heretics view opposing orthodoxy as heretical."
Please justify this claim that all heretics are unaware of their heresy. Moreover, if this claim is true then "orthodoxy" is a misnomer for simply different opinions. Note this statement's logic:
Clearly, the phrase that explains this logic is "what is to one is not to another." Shouldn't such "original research" be avoided? Adraeus 11:11, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Revising this to incorporate your criticism: A better antithesis in the quote above would be "Heretics do not define their own beliefs as heretical; in fact, minorities in matters of dogma may even hold the majority in error, thus heretical. in other words, movements which have been called heretical that is to say, incorrect may make the very same charge against the mainstream church." Any further objections to this evolving disambiguation? --Wetman 20:45, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I do not think that the discussed sentence means, "Heretics don't think they are weird or different from the mainstream." Rather, I think what is meant is, "The movements which have been called heretical -- that is to say, incorrect -- make the very same charge against the mainstream church."
One implication of this is that, in the ancient church, both "heretics" and "orthodox" believed religious truth to be singular and absolute, rather than multiple and relative as many people believe today. Thus, in order to believe a "heresy" one must at the same time believe that the "orthodox" position is incorrect in both facts and morals -- that the mainstream church believes something false and is being led astray by its leaders. --FOo 23:09, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes. But isn't this implicit in the "an authoritative system of dogma" part? Make the point more strongly if you want. --Wetman 23:38, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Categorization:
Accordingly, this article should not be in Category:Religion if it is also in Category:Religious law. —Ashley Y 03:14, 2005 May 15 (UTC)
I have not involved in any discussions about this article. It looks to me to a good, neutral, well-balanced article. Robert McClenon 01:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I propose moving the discussion from Talk:C.S. Lewis#Possible heretic? to here, in the hope that it may prove more fruitful if discussed in this venue. There is a lot of material there, much of it very chatty - but it involves a new user, whom I hope will be extended the customary grace and guidance toward productive Wikiness if allowed to continue the discussion here. Any objection? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The contents of the Talk:C._S._Lewis#Possible_heretic? page were merged into Heresy. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Im surprised that there is nothing on the recent discovery that Lewis may not have been a Christian at all! If one really goes through all of his writings and centers it together, one can easily find that it was a broad mix of Taoism, Catholic tradition and philosophical jargon. In several pages alone, in Mere Christianity, Lewis depicts Christianity as the "climax of the human mind", as if its the final stage in man's enlightenment process. In several books he denies the Christian doctrine, denies the Bible being literal truth, preaches an uber-universalist way of salvation and says that man is an animal. Now I know that the first reaction to alot of people in here is going to be to his defense and that its his way of interpretation. But even the most liberal of Christians would tell you that CS Lewis was way off on plenty of things.
The man is a heretic and nothing more.
Mythsearcher, you are a number. Although I find that you are my brother in Christ and I would gladly wish to debate this topic in a place where there is more room. For some reason it seems like we're crammed in here. Do you have AIM or Yahoo Messenger? Anyways I will address some of the issues here. First off, I am a Reformed Calvinist Christian, so I am about as conservative as you can get with the Bible, and you can see why I think CS Lewis is a heretic. BUT, and a big BUT, it should be noted that I am very, very careful with who I label a heretic. When it comes to the majority of the people you listed as "possible" heretics, really only Lewis stands out as a real heretic. I feel the others were misguided or wrong, but not heretics. When it comes to Lewis, he is in a class all on his own.
For one, I do have to ask, what your definition is of salvation, the Word of God, creation, and free will? I feel that if we get these out of the way it will better the debate. For now I leave you with a piece right out of Mere Christianity, pg.208-209.
Dont know how to sign in and stuff, so just call me Anon.
"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."
First off what is a "good" pagan? Second, what is a Buddhist of good will? Why did Lewis claim that good pagans before Christ were in the same boat of reaching heaven if they just concentrate on those "truths" that reflect the teachings of Christ? Obviously he means this, if he used the good willed Buddhist as an example of a non-Christian who belongs to Christ without knowing him(Christ). He does not even mention if the Buddhist comes to Christ or not, just that if his focus is on the truths that reflect Christ then he is of God's without knowing anything about Christ. Remember, that he says that they are being led by God's secret influence,(The Holy Spirit?). But not to Christ just the good parts of religion. This is CS Lewis's message throughout most of his books. That Christianity is another step that man has taken in his evolutionary pattern of life, and that it is the final revelation. It is not one truth for all ages to come but a culmination of several truths finally revealed. Do not get me wrong I believe that man is granted common grace and God lets man discover truth about the world through his expierences, but these truths do not amount to anything close to revealed truth about God at all. Man's nature is corrupted by sin and thus cannot and will not seek after the one true God. He will always twist it to his own liking to follow after his own will. CS Lewis is pushing the envelope when he suggests that there is/was something inherent inside us to discover these truths. I mean obviously he believes that the teachings of Buddha reflect the teachings of Christ, simply because they spoke about mercy. But this is wrong because both are similar in thier appearence but in contect are radically different, and achieve different ends. And if God's word and meaning is truth, than the Buddhist teaching is falsehood. Buddha just gathered it from the expierences throughout his life but there wasnt that foundation built on God. So CS Lewis is wrong to suggest there are Buddhists of good will, or that there are good pagans, or that anyone can know or come to God(heaven) and not perish if they just concentrate on those teachings that reflect Christ's teaching. - Anon
Mythseeker have it your way. I meant that you were a number because its obvious that the Church has bought in hook line and sinker that there are other possible ways of reaching heaven because they feel its not fair that God "excluded" them from the prize of salvation. First off, brother, we as fallen sinful humans do not deserve one iota of God's free grace.All throughout the Bible, the Holy Book explains that we are in no position to ask or grant oursevles or anyone else merited favor in the eyes of God. The Lord is soverign in who he displays his mercy on. You see Myth, there is not one that seeks after God. All have fallen and are under condemnation. So the Lord does not condemn someone for not believing in Christ he gives them over to thier depraved mind because they are sinful. To say that it isnt fair that someone hasnt heard the Gospel in a remote place half way accross the world is foolish. There was a time when this very contintent including Central and Suuth America heard nothing of the word and people accepted Christ. The same goes for where ever the Gospel was preached. Second, where in the Bible does it speak of following the law or 10 commandments that that is the easy road to salvation? The whole point of the law was to introduce sin. Read the book of Romans chapters 1-9 and it will all make sense to you, I guarantee it. I would also challenge your position on free will as well. I do not believe that humans have the free will that humans have defined through thier own philosophy. Read Daniel 4: 30-35 and then read Romans 9. Pharoah was raised for the very purpose so that God would harden his heart, and God would be glorified. Also it is written that the older will serve the younger and Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. So it was not by any works of man, before their birth, so that God's stance on election might stand. -Anon
Hold on you guys. Im not calling him a heretic in the lets burn him at the stake, Spanish Inquisition way. I am refering to his horrible distortion of the Biblical view of salvation. Even if it is speculation, it is still a horrible distortion because the Bible clearly corrects this matter. The problem with Lewis is that he also belives in another distortion, that the Bible is full of error. This alone makes his view on God less than it should be. The heresies just spring up from these points. - Anon
It doesnt matter about his church. The basic concepts of the Bible are universal. If a church cannot stand on the basic principle of salvation in Christ alone, then what makes it so Christian in the first place? If anything he shouldnt be touted off as an apologist for Christianity by evangelical bookstores and communities. His disdain for the evangelical movement shocked me. Norman Geisler even questioned this man's theology on several accounts and found him to be in error in several places.
How can you not know what is meant by Moses, Abraham and Elias all being saved before Christ? God quoted them as righteous because it was always about grace and faith with him. Christ was God and came down to break the bounds between Jew and Gentile and save the world as one. Before Christ, salvation was for the Jew only(and those that came into the faith), for it is written several times in the Old Testament that God saves, turn to him and be saved, more so than in even the New Testament! When God said that he would send down a servant and a messenger Isaiah 53, he meant himself in the form of his son Jesus Christ, God in the flesh. So believing in Jesus after his death is the same as what Moses, Abraham and the Israelites believed as well. Mythseeker, are you sure you are a Baptist? I mean these things are pretty clear in your denomination. Paul is even asked, I believe in Romans 3 on the topic of those who dont hear the Gospel, and he answers that blessed are the messengers that bring good news, which means that God sends out those whom he called to gather whom he is calling. So salvation is a matter up to God and saving plan, not for us to wonder about "poor" souls. Remember that you were once a "poor" soul who didn't know Christ. What is the difference between you in a first world country and someone in a third world country? You are both from the same lump of clay that is sinful in God's eyes and must be made righteous in his sight through his own saving grace. It's just God granted his unmerited favor upon you at the particular time and place before he did another particular soul in say, India. Its still the same thing, you just want to make yourself the author of your salvation, so you place your will and "authority" to chose over God's grace, then you direct that stolen authority and ask why it isnt fair that some one so "lower" than yourself has not been given the chance to make the same choice you so "suredly" made. The reason I am calling CS Lewis a deviator and a heretic is because the Bible so clearly preaches on all of these answers and are lucid and clear. Lewis just chose to warp them to favor his own philosophy because he couldn't deal with the fact that people were going to hell. So he lowered his standard of God and decided that the Bible was in error and possibly not the inerrent word of God. He casted down God's soverignty over his creation and made up a speculation that God was at the will of human thought and experience because man has "truths" that reflect Christ's truth, and thus merited favor into heaven without acknowledging the Creator and Savior. It's heretical and flying in the face of the scripture. -Anon
"Anarchistic views aside, it does matter what his church says, if you want to call him a heretic in an encyclopedia." Lets say I was a Marxist and I began to question Marx's view of Communism as a science that will happen. Then from there, I believed that the worker will not unite under workers solidarity because from my experience that hasnt happened yet, so I deviate a litte from this. Then from that last point,I reject Marx as a science all together and opt for direct action to bring about this proletariat nation now instead of waitng for capitalism to run its course. And last from the rest of the points, I reject his view of a nation being illegitimate and even a little on his stance on private property. ...would this still make me a Marxist, even though I denied the basic tenets of what made me a Marxist? I would not be a Marxist anymore I would be a Fascist or a Syndicalist. This is what I mean with Lewis, from one deviation come several, til his doctrine sounds un-Christian and heretical. -Anon
Ok, guys, this is Anon. I am finally signed up. My new name is JudeObscure84
Ok, here's my question. Why are we supposed to believe that the Bible is 100% inerrant? I've invested 1.5+ years into trying to answer this question, and no one has been able to show me an answer. This question seems primary in order to understand the questions of salvation. David Bergan 14:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok So many questions to address so little time. First off lets start off with the fact that the Bible is inerrant because God said that we would worship him in Spirit and in truth. The Spirit meaning the Holy Spirit which guides us to the truth found in his Gospel and Word(Bible). The Holy Spirit guides one to choose Christ, because as it is written in Epeshians 2, we were all by nature children of wrath, fit for condemnation. Our nature is polluted and we need to be given a new one. There is no rightfull religion, there is none that has a truth close to God, for it is just experiences that people had through life that reflect thier sinful state. A law comes into practice because people were deviating from that principle in the first place. Law came in to this world to condemn sin. For the Gentiles were a law unto themselves, the law written into thier hearts, thier conscience bearing witness. So the Roman Empire can come up with a law that reflects the reality of expierence but it doesn't make it true or Holy because it doesnt reflect the righteous purpose based on a foundation built upon the true God. Instead it is a result of man's sinful state that that particular law had to be put into place in the first place. The reason behind that particular law could come in a dozen forms besides that of which is unto God. So humans work on the correspondence of truth, constantly observing before they realize whats going on and then act in the sense of thier own desires of how to handle a problem. A human knows right from wrong in his own (worldly)sense, because he makes himself the author of good and bad, but he does not know TRUE right from wrong because he does not know God, the author of ALL that is truly good. God has to reveal that truth to you and instill it in you with his seal of the Holy Spirt, now showing you true good and evil, based upon the righteous judge to determine that; God. So in essense you have true free will. The human concept of free will is both relatative and absolute, at the same time, if you can follow the scenerio. Romans chapters 1-3 explains all this. Humans are not the author of good for they know not good, for it is written that NO one is righteous, no one is good, not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Next, God is not only a God for all nations, he is the God for all nations because he created them. He split the masses are ordains nations and gives them majesty. Remember that Jesus said to Pilate that he only has power because it was granted to him by the Father. No one is outside of God's domain, for it is also written that a man plans his way but God directs his steps. So God is the God of both Jew and Gentile, but chose to reveal himself to the Jew first so that t hey may bring about the Messiah to usher in the Gentiles into his adopted family. The genitles are a branch grafted into the tree of life. So you are not getting it Mythseeker, no one is deserving of anything that God grants to those he decides to grant his mercy on. No you, not me, not no one. God was patient and long suffering, seeing sin take it's toll with all horror and amazement, restraining it and letting it loose. He has made all things new. See you keep thinking that you deserve this because you keep asking that people should deserve the chance to hear his word and be let to choose. But we are all children of wrath, fit for condemnation. Our nature was to reject God from the get go, God is the only one that can revive the polluted being that we are,so we can choose in the first place. So it is He that you are directing these questions to, not I. You are basicallty asking him, "God why didnt you save all those before your Son, why did you just choose the Israelites to be your chosen people and not the guy far from Israel on the other side of the world?" "That would've been fairer." As if you can question his soverignty and mercy, and can find a better solution to fit everyone or rather find an excuse to fit everyone on the same boat. So to say that God give them a chance after death is also foolish, because then why would God reveal his truths here on earth and rely on faith,when he could just wait for everyone to die so he can reveal himself to them, and then let them choose right then and there? There would be no faith, and you can count grace and mercy out because who's gonna say no? And even if they did say no to God, then that proves that man is so depraved in his thinking that he cannot come to God and needs something to push him to do so. So either God fails to grant grace on a convert (even after death which is a pretty weak God), because the human did not choose, or God chose not to grant grace to him at all, by revealing himself to him so that he would willingly choose him. - Anon
Mythseeker, if you believe in the 5 solas then you are on the right track. But if Lewis remained in his state of believing what he believed than I dont know if he really knew Christ. I am not trying to say that he is not saved, for that is not my judgement to call, but I can see that his books do deviate from nearly everything the Reformers were saying. I mean the Reformers were really just pioneers of ushering back the basic concepts of Christianity and doing away with tradition. This is written about all through the Bible, about people coming in and placing thier traditions over the Word of God, and denying Sola Scriptura. - Anon
Since we were discussing about heresy, it seems to be more appropriate to discuss here than there.
Anon, I am not saying we or anyone deserve the right to be chosen or be given a chance. I am just suggesting that God is so merciful that he will give a chance to everyone, everyone meaning you, me, people who have heard of the Gospel, and everyone that never had a chance of hearing it. Notice the different in saying "we deserve it" and "he is merciful enough to give it to us, and everyone else.". I know it sounds silly to say that they are given a chance after their death, but no body knows what God will do, and God have better plans than we do, and in him, nothing is impossible. He may just let the people who die without hearing the Gospel live a short after life and in it, they have a chance of hearing the Gospel, and is granted their chance, by God, to believe in him and have salvation. I do NOT know this, I just suggest that is one of the many possiblities that God may do, and can do. I am not trying to judge, question, tempt or doubt why God let those people suffer eternally without giving them a chance which they deserve. Instead, I am suggesting and have faith that since God is so merciful, he will have some type of plan, a plan of which no body knows how, when, where, what, to give a chance to everyone.
From what I believe I have read, it seems like Lewis, is also only suggesting the same thing but in a less broad version. He seems to suggested that God work in a different way than my suggestion above, where people are not given a chance after their death, but a chance before their death. This chance that Lewis have suggested, is the other philosophies that have a lot in common with the teachings in the Bible. I do not really favour the idea much, but I do believe that this is just a thought, or a thought process, that he is also trying to suggest one of the possibilities that God may do, and thus, I really doubt he is a heretic and at most just a little out of the way and thinking creatively at the moment when he was writing the book.
MythSearcher 01:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If those who insist on adding Arminianism as part of the list of Christian heresies, it is only then fair and NPOV to add also Calvinism and even Theosis. Same goes for those who are going to insist on adding one or both of the other two.
Either they are all listed, none are, or there is a list of "disputed theologies" that different Christian groups see as heresy but others do not.
Valer 05:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I just wish to restress, since an incertion of Double Predestination (under "Predestination") was missed in the list of heresies, that unless we are going to list Calvinism, Arminianism, and Theosis ALL TOGETHER as heresies, then no one is to put in just one or two. To do so is blatantly POV and has NO PLACE in wikipedia. Valer 03:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
A resolution of the English House of Commons: "Whosoever shall bring in innovation of religion, or by favour or countenance seek to extend or introduce Popery or Arminianism, or other opinion disagreeing from the true and orthodox Church, shall be reputed a capital enemy to this Kingdom and Commonwealth." [3] --Henrygb 15:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that whoever quoted Maimonides neglected to quote in full (hopefully accidentally). I hope to have a complete quote accurately translated and in the article soon. Until then, three commas representing "etc." will, I hope, suffice.
Any comments or corrections of my translation would be appreciated and welcome. Shykee 20:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)Shykee
This section deals with heresy as having an objective sense, and indeed that being the only one that makes any sense. Thanks to those who wrote the article and the comments above, some of which I have reused without acknowledgement.
Short restrictive definition: "Heresy" in this section is used to refer to religious heresy; the religion involved is Christianity by default (because I can't write about any other form); and the etymology is the Greek "choice" root. This definition may have extension to other beliefs, including heresies, changing the POV and other internal references mutatis mutandem.
Heresy as a serious matter: The early Christians were prepared to associate death with heresy; its appearance being evidence of spiritual death on the part of the perpetrator, and often were willing to exact the corresponding physical death upon those so found doing. Later Christians tended to associate the physical death as the correct response and either take the spiritual death as read or ignore it entirely. Whether this physical punishment was in any cases justified is not addressed here: the conclusion is that heresy was always considered a very serious matter. This response - excommunication, "giving over to Satan", or torture and capital punishment - within a community that taught the abhorrence of physical responses and had love as its primary motivator, shows that the alternative before the Christians was the "death" of the heresy or the "death" of orthodox Christianity (see later for the use of "orthodox").
Heresy as both a cause and an effect: The doctrine of heresy is not as an independent phenomenon, but is part of the chain: false doctrine → heresy → schism (see Litany, Book of Common Prayer, for an example of this). Heresy is the effect of false doctrine; heresy is the cause of schism. False doctrine is therefore to be stamped out as possibly generating heresy; "choice" of modes of worship and so on are logically based on opinions about what doctrine to follow. Sects and schisms will follow if this is not done. Furthermore heresy is not false doctrine, and the article would possibly gain by having this pointed out more fully. This is the first objective use of the term "heresy".
Orthodoxy as the key concept: A doctrine that is false must be false according to some standard of truth. A doctrine that is true according to that standard is defined as "orthodox". If orthodoxy is to vary with the point of view, then there can be no such thing as heresy, nor by extension any such thing as orthodoxy, and this whole article must be called into question as representing nothing whatever (see "A Purely Subjective Term" above).
A purely objective term: There must therefore be a standard of truth against which judgement may be made. It follows that there must be an independent standard of orthodoxy. This provides a purely objective view of orthodoxy, and defines heresy in purely objective terms. Since subjective views lead to the denial of the existence of heresy, false doctrine becoming an opinion as equally valid as another, and schism becoming a natural right, this is the only view that makes sense. What can this objective, independent viewpoint be? That of God. There can be none other, for if He is the originator of the faith then He is the repository of orthodoxy. If any other is acknowledged, then the risk of error - error in doctrine being the generator of heresy, notably - must be present. Since Jesus Christ claims to be Truth personified, we shall no doubt find out all the answers when we see Him.
Historical orthodoxy: Historically, appeals to orthodoxy have been appeals to an understanding of the doctrines of the "early Church". This was regarded as being absolutely orthodox in the teachings of the Apostles (not necessarily elsewhere as can be read in the Pauline Epistles: false doctrines would creep in and heresy was an ever-present menace). In the absence of Apostles appeals had been made to an "Apostolic Succession" on the one hand, and the Bible on the other. However, the debate is much older than the Reformation or the Great Schism; it was not lawful for the Apostles to teach something that Christ did not teach them, and the same applies to their successors. The basis of historical orthodoxy is given by Vicentius Liricensis as "the general consent of the faithful in all ages", thus ruling out innovation and appealing to apostolic origins. He goes on to anathematize the teaching of error in an exhortation to "keep what has been entrusted to you, not what you have invented; what is accepted, not what you have imagined." "In ipsa item catholica ecclesia magnopere curandum est ut id teneamus quod ubique, quod ab omnibus creditum est... Administrare ergo aliquid Christianis Catholicis, praeter id quod acceperunt, nunquam licuit, nunquam licet, nunquam licebit;... Depositum custodi. Quid est depositum? id est quod tibi traditum est, non quod a te inventum; quod accepisti, non quod excogitasti; rem non ingenii, sed doctrinae; non usurpationis privatae, sed publicae traditionis; rem ad te perductam, non a te prolatam; in qua non auctor debes esse, sed custos; non institutor, sed sectator; non ducens sed sequens." Vicentius Liricensis, Bibliotheca Patrum vol X pp 103-111.
Jeremynicholas 15:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Simply stated heresy is a lie as defined by those who claim to know the whole truth. Therefore, heretics are liars who teach contrary to the truth. Blasphemy is an intentional premeditated insult to God. Apostasy is treason to the beliefs of a group one previously belonged to. Jose Leo (Joseleo (talk) 04:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC))
hello everyone can you tell me a hertic example please thankyou very much........................................................................................................
I propose that we shorten this article by removing the "Christian heresies" and "Orthodox Judaism" sections replacing them with summaries. The text in the removed sections would then be moved to new articles with approximately the same names as the deleted sections.
It's not that this article is too long as it could get really long if we discussed Christian heresies in any detail. One motivation that I have is that I am working on the History of Christianity and History of the Papacy articles. It would be more natural to reference an article on Christian heresies than to reference this article which describes heresy as a general concept.
--Richard 01:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The suggestion has obviously been implemented.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Heretics is a book by GK Chesterton, if there is an article on it, than "Heretics" should link there, not be redirected here.
Agreed, To complicate matters the book is now quoted.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the paragraph:
In Christianity, heresy is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, heresy is an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative."Oxford English Dictionary
Which uses the follwing reference: Oxford English Dictionary
Which does not give a definition of heresy and in my opinion gives catholic PoV. --Île_flottante~Floating island Talk 12:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is terrible and will greatly misinform people whom read it. LoveMonkey (talk) 16:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
The article claims that Bacon was imprisoned for 'years' because 'his curiosity and investigations were considered heretical'. My understanding is that Bacon was imprisoned for a few days, for taking bribes. Does anybody have the cited book? Can you verify the claim? Thanks, 128.114.181.72 (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2011 (UTC) ocanter
The claim was recently removed.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
The quote attributed to Isaac Asimov is actually from
Marcello Truzzi, Ph.D.
Source: http://www2.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/truzzi.html
Truzzi was paraphrasing Asimov's statements in the Forward to Scientists Confront Velikovsky, edited by Goldsmith (1977). ISBN 0-8014-0961-6 159.83.196.1 (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Deleted and replaced.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
As given the article like many western prejudices excludes the discussion of Heresy in Islam, in Chinese and Indian Religions, and in African and Indegenous Cultures.
Heresy as a concept, independent of the culture of a specific religion.
"Wikipedia: Ibn Kathir."
Ibn Kathir for example is one of the most well known islamic teachers of law.
Anyone who has a few mosques in their city or town can peruse the shelves for a copy of one or more of Ibn Kathir's works.
according to wikipedia he was an inquisitor into heresy in the 900s in Syria, an inquisition began in the 700s.
He is as influencial in Islam as Augustine or Aquinas are in Christianity.
For better or for worse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NickPKB (talk • contribs) 01:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Much has changed since claims were made that the article lacks a neutral point of view. The disputants have moved on? Most of this talk section is obsolete and probably should be archived. Help, Prince Wikipedian.159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:13, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
This article is not well regarded according to page ratings, but no constructive criticism has been offered.
Current average ratings: Trustworthy 2.8 of 5; Objective 2.6 of 5; Complete 2.8 of 5; Well-written 2.7 of 5 159.83.196.1 (talk) 22:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Moved: was at Talk:Heretical
It's a bit much to make a disambiguation page here just to make room for some website carrying that name. Greetings, Sacca 10:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
→Note: Heretical was formerly a disambiguation page. The "some website" article is Heretical (website). Senator2029 “Talk” 00:38, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
laws were repealed in 1547 only to be reintroduced in 1554
Acesuares (talk) 03:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
OMG my very first edit in Wikipedia and I messed up. Ace — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acesuares (talk • contribs) 03:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
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The major reason why this edit was reversed is that the source quoted gives the major meaning of Heresy as "Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine." and only allows the sense of "Opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted." as secondary. Furthermore the drafting is poor in that Heresy does not "refer to" the Greek term. Also, in so far as etymologies and earlier meanings of the original Greek are concerned when these differ from the current use(s), the etymological date should come after the current meaning, or meanings. — Jpacobb (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The only sources for this are on social media, which cannot be referenced so I am adding it here. While some people might identify as “heretics”, many if not most accused of “heretics” would deny this exteriorly imposed identity. And since some accused of “heresy” would accept neither “orthodoxy” nor “heterodoxy” as representative of their views, the terms “transodoxy” and “transodox” has emerged on social media sites such as Facebook and MeWe for persons who self-identify as being outside or beyond the orthodoxy-heterodoxy-heresy spectrum. It is largely due to how uptight many “orthodox” persons are in marginalizing members of their own faith traditions and the acceptance of “trans” identity politics that has made some people who formerly identified as orthodox decide to identify instead as transodox. These words would never get through the Wiki admins so I am including them here. I am myself a Transodox Christian, and I reject the incessant labelling of me as a heretic by certain Orthodox Christians. And while I am initiated in both the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church and have never been officially censured by any bishop in those communions I prefer to call myself a Transodox Christian due to how ugly I perceive the behavior of many Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Christian jurisdictions. And I certainly am not going to self-identify as either a heterodox or heretical Christian as those terms are disparaging. DErnestWachter (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
i can’t figure out how to edit a former post. Obviously my English was poor but you all get the point. The above should read: accused of being “heretics” have emerged
If someone knows how to edit former posts in a Wikipedia Talk section, do let me know. Thanks. DErnestWachter (talk) 17:08, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
i see Talk does not recognize line breaks. It strung together my two separate revisions that I put on separate lines as one line. I meant it should read: accused of being “heretics” / & / have emerged. DErnestWachter (talk) 17:11, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
The statement: "The Church Fathers identified Jews and Judaism with heresy" was introduced here :https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heresy&diff=prev&oldid=646389415 and sourced to a 2011 book by Robert Michael titled "A history of Catholic antisemitism : the dark side of the church", which is conveniently available on Google Books. The specific claim is made there (in fact, the statement is basically a paraphrase), as is the quotation from Tertullian -- but the quote isn't actually sourced. The nearby footnotes are:
which seem to refer to a thesis (OCLC 3640965) and a widely-available reference work OCLC 1866633. It's not clear that the quote (which we also should try and nail down a source for) actually supports the claim of "identification" vs "inspiration" of heresy. We should probably fix that (with a source). -- 104.232.114.65 (talk) 16:26, 12 May 2020 (UTC)