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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lcoomber (article contribs).

Move/merge discussion at Talk:Miscegenation

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Miscegenation regarding moving content from that article to several new articles, and merging out some of the rest. The current article has >150 kB prose. - LaTeeDa (talk) 16:48, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This document contains false information about Chinese marriage.

related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dmartin969#Hello_I'd_like_to_ask_for_your_advice.

related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Rajmaan/Archive#01_June_2020

related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interracial_marriage&type=revision&diff=954358702&oldid=951760846

related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1039#Blocked_users_are_constantly_attacking_me_by_IP.

The manager said that the blocked user's lies were can be deleted. This debate is also sustainable if normal users participate. If a doll of a blocked user appears, I'll report it right away. The blocked user constantly attacked me in an illegal way. His goal is to hope that the lies in this document will be maintained now.

To inflame public, just one word can do it. But to refute it, numerous documents and evidences are required.-Paul Joseph Goebbels- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bablos939 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(A)Latin America

In South America, although the number of Chinese international marriages is very small, blocked users have exaggerated and overstated. (A)-1 Cuba 'There is anecdotal evidence that Chinese men in Cuba and Peru married or had sexual relationships with white,black,mulatto and Indian women' Alien Nation: Chinese Migration in the Americas from the Coolie Era Through ISBN 978 1 4696 1340 6 https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ch8VBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&dq=indian+coolie+woman+chinese+men&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=indian%20coolie%20woman%20chinese%20men&f=false

(A)-2 Peru 'the men(Chinese) had almost no contact with local women in Peru.' The Chinese in Latin America and the Caribbean https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=xrGShVU6VrgC&pg=PA143&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

(A)-3 Central Trinidad 'Between 1853 and 1866, 2048 Chinese labourers arrived to work on the estates mainly in Central Trinidad, while between 1846-1859 some 1300 Portuguese labourers were recruited from the archipelago of Madeira off the Atlantic coast of North Africa (Ferreira 1994, 17).' http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61376

(A)-4 Guyana There are only six cases.

In Guyana, Marriages between Indian women and Chinese men in 1892 numbered only six as reported by Immigration Agent Gladwin. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=e-YYAAAAYAAJ&dq=In+1892,+Immigration+Agent+Gladwin+reported+just+six+marriages+between+Chinese+men+and+Indian+women.&q=1892+six+marriages&redir_esc=y&hl=ko

(A)-5 Mexico We don't know if source really makes that argument. It's mostly false.

(A)-6 Costa Rica It's mostly false. This source (http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?ID=221) is unreliable. This is not academic material.

(A)-7 Jamaica Blocked users tell completely absurd lies. 'Thousands of Chinese men (mostly Hakka) and Indian men married local Jamaican women. The study "Y-chromosomal diversity in Haiti and Jamaica: Contrasting levels of sex-biased gene flow" shows the paternal Chinese haplogroup O-M175 at a frequency of 3.8% in local Jamaicans ( non-Chinese Jamaicans) including the Indian H-M69 (0.6%) and L-M20 (0.6%) in local Jamaicans.[177] Among the country's most notable Afro-Asians are reggae singers Sean Paul, Tami Chynn and Diana King.' This source doesn't say that. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.22090

These false information must be deleted.Bablos939 (talk) 13:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(B)China

Most of the international marriages of Chinese people take place between Chinese women and foreign men (B)-1 Tang Dynasty

Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-2 Song Dynasty

During the Song Dynasty , many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-3 Yuan Dynasty The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-4 Ming Dynasty

'Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.'

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

(B)-5 People's Republic of China

According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009.

S:'Table 1.1 Comparison of Marriages between Chinese and Foreigners (C-F), Chinese and Oversea Chinese (C-OC), and Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong, Taiwan & Macau (C-HTM). In 1979-1989 and 1978-2008' S:'Figure 2. Types of Chinese-foreign marriages registered in mainland China, 1979–2010 Sources: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; and ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011. Data for 1985 and 1986 are not available.'

Among all international marriages, over 80-90% of Chinese women and foreign men are married.

S: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011; and Zhonghua quanguo funü lianhedi funü yanjiusuo, Shaanxi sheng funü lianhehui yanjiushi, 1986–1988 nian guonei nüxing gongmin tong waiguoren ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao dengji jiehun renshu, 344

http://rozenbergquarterly.com/the-history-and-context-of-chinese-western-intercultural-marriage-in-modern-and-contemporary-china-from-1840-to-the-21st-century/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

(B)-6 Sogdian ?? Iranian women ???

'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.' http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf This sentence is the only academic material.Other source are unreliable.The academic evidence is unclear. Also Sogdian men also married Chinese women. There is only anecdotal evidence. Blocked users distorted the source.

'Blocked users have thoroughly deleted marriages between Chinese women and foreign men.On the other hand, he falsely exaggerated the marriage between Chinese men and foreign women.Bablos939 (talk) 14:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Bablos939 (talk) 13:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]

I agree with you. having reviewed the data what he claimed, found that he created a new uncertain fact to fit for his taste.
At the same time, he deleted any materials which were unfavorable to his country.116.123.12.44 (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is true, this page feels very vandalized, Chinese men are referred to an extreme amount of times, having this page been edited in their favor, while a lot these accurate sources are being deleted who frame Chinese women with marring outside their race, this page needs a cleanup -- Toby Mitches (talk) 07:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you too. This page needs to be cleaned. Maybe this page is a novel Vandals is working on.220.117.225.165 (talk) 05:46, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for giving us a lot of course. We have to delete the false information and restore the real information.Bablos939 (talk) 12:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

response to Bablos939

WHAT A MESSY DISCUSSION. IS IT NECCESARILY TO HAVE EVERTYHING UNDERLINED? Italic text

Bablos939 is at again. Interracial marriage between overseas Southern Chinese men/coolies were massive and well sourced but this seem to be either jealousy of the user or have no idea of it's history and try to undermine Chinese male history by cherrypicking 1 sentence without including the rest of the sources.

There has been a huge discussion previously on the interracial marriage of Chinese men/women with bablos939 by 5-6 others against Bablos939 who he accused all to be sockpuppet but none except one was. And Bablos939 was also suspected of being a sockpuppet because of his link Korean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_3

Bablos939 is known for being anti-Chinese, anti-Chinese men especially and always focus on Chinese edits.


( I decided to make a wikipedia account just for this mess ) 'FIRSTABLE', before we go any further. All 3 IP address shows South Korean link and shows strong signs of sock-puppetry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_sockpuppetry#Casting_additional_votes


All 3 of them shows a clear Korean link and are clearly casting addition votes to help eachother to create a fake concesus agreement. An Ip address sockpuppet investigation should be done to see if all 3 are related if this continues. Because not only are they all from South Korea , they are all basically from the same city.


SECOND, I don't know if this is envy, jealously or simply don't know the history well. Historically there was indeed massive number of Southern Chinese coolies males that intermarried with females of Latin America of different and this is confirmed by government statistic of Peru, Cuba and Latin America ect shows there's Millions of mixed Chinese descendants. Bablos939 ignores every other answers that was already given here and cherrypick a quote without reading the entire sources. Korean men historically never had any adventure or male worked as slave labours overseas and intermarried with females

The wikipedia didn't even include 10,000 of Russian women married to Chinese men in 2003 research or 1,000 Manchus women married to Chinese men

As for Chinese women I don't deny they intermarried a lot .For example there's record that both Chinese women and Korean were historically married to neighboring conquerers invaders but it could really large numbers were raped and used as sexual slaves. Both of them suffered more than anyone when conquered in the past although Chinese were also able to conquer foreign invaders and as result marry foreign female invaders including many women of foreign regions.

The source Bablos939 uses of Chinese females to foreign nationals men, actually if you read the link clearly it says most of the marriages were with males from Hong Kong and Taiwan. Not men of other ethnicity. Obviously males from Hong Kong and Taiwan are also ethnic Chinese but with different nationality. This is not interracial marriage and besides Chinese women and Korean women are racially the same people, in everywhere they go they get treated the same. Even when Chinese suffers racism for Covid, the Koreans daily news says Koreans citizens also say suffer racism, that's because non-Asians can never distinguish them. When Chinese mothers are insulted the same goes for Korean mothers are insulted, same with other Asians. You only need to see hollywood that Korean actress plays the role of Chinese roles and Chinese actress plays the role of Korean role. So I really don't understand why 3 Korean IP (or they are same person) keep targeting Chinese people when we all know

Racially/Genetically Koreans are the same as Chinese. If look at haplogroup DNA both of them are predominant Haplogroup O-M175, culturally similar, same beliefs, same dress and even used the same writing historically. By genetics Koreans are 2-3 times closer to Chinese/Japanese than to Mongolians who are closer to Buryats, Tuvans


THIS IS INFORMATION FROM THE PREVIOUS DISCUSSION THAT REFUTED ALL BABLOS939 CLAIMS. I ALSO ADDED NEWLY ADDED SOURCES

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_2

Bablos939, it's no wonder this whole discussion is so long. Your not trying to change 1 thing but basically trying to change like 10-20 stuff, almost every information on Chinese interracial marriages. Out of all the 6 accounts/IP you accused only 1 was a sockpuppet yet you keep repeating same lies that all of them are socks. As long as I'm here, there's no way I will let you ignore Korean women because that is racist. I already said when we talk it won't be just about Chinese men foreign women and vice versa but also Korean women and foreign man and others. I have no interest in you repeating the same thing but I will answer all of them.

There are massive number marriages of Chinese men with South American women, Carribean women, Black women, Russian women and significant with muslim women. On the hand there is a massive number of marriages of Korean women with Mongolian, Uyghur men, Turkic men, Muslim men, Chinese men.During the same era, another young Chinese Emperor Wang Zongyan who was only 20 years old when he ascended the throne, had a Persian woman as his concubine, Li Shunxian

(None of these info had been edited) Chinese men with foreign women ( Russian women, Manchu women, South America women , Carribean women, Muslim women )



10,000+ marriages of Chinese men, Russian women (Tens of thousands could even mean 20,000-30,000 or more) https://www.pravdareport.com/society/2688-family/

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" In addition, as researches held by Olga Makhovskaya reveal, marriages between Chinese men and Russian women are also very successful. “There are tens of thousands of such marriages in Russia's Primorye region in the Far East. Chinese men are hard-working, they don't abuse in alcohol drinking and bring their wages home. In a word, they have lots of advantages by contrast with Russian men." It is sad, but the researches don't mention for whom Russian men suit wonderfully. "


'

'https://books.google.com/books?id=QXHbhsfaJAYC&pg=PA148 https://books.google.com/books?id=ORBmFSFcJKoC&pg=PA79'

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"mass marriage of Han Chinese officers and officials to Manchu women numbering 1,000 couples was arranged by Prince Yoto 岳托 (Prince Keqin) and Hongtaiji in 1632 to promote harmony between the two ethnic groups. "


There is anecdotal evidence, there is also historical records, physical descendants, genetic evidence, government statistics which are millions more reliable than your mere cherrypicked text from google book.



So many Peruvian authors/researcher and Peruvian government statistic shows there 15-20% of Peruvian citizens may have some Chinese ancestry and you are here claiming only a few marriages ?

The Chinese Overseas, Volume 1 edited by Hong Liu

https://books.google.com/books?id=VV9khhBOrlUC&pg=PA242

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Pervuvian law did not forbid interracial marriage. There is no prevailing racist attitude against intermarriage between the Chinese and non-Chinese in Peru, so the number of interracial marriages is quite large. The number of children born of such marriages estimated by my informants to be more than 180,000. Half of that number is Lima, with the ration between Chinese mestizo and the full-blooded Chinese at 90,000 to 15,000, or six to one

https://www.ned.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Chapter3-Sharp-Power-Rising-Authoritarian-Influence-Peru.pdf Quote

"The first are those who maintain Chinese citizenship and, therefore, have stronger, more direct ties to China; this group includes the descendants of the workers of Cantonese origin who migrated to Peru after 1849, as well as the so-called new migrants—mostly from Fujian province—who have been flowing into the country since the 1980s. The second group are Peruvian citizens born in the countrywith mixed Peruvian-Chinese ancestry, locally known as Tusan.7 The Tusan are thought to be quite numerous: Up to 2.5 million people, or 8 percent of Peru’s population of 31 million may have Chinese ancestry, according to estimates—about whichthere is still much debate.8"

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/chinese-laborers-peru-lima-pyramid "Found: The Remains of Chinese Laborers Interred on a Peruvian Pyramid. In the 19th century, 100,000 indentured laborers came to Peru from China.BY SARAH LASKOW AUGUST 25, 2017"

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"today 15 percent of people in the country can trace their ancestry back to Chinese and other Asian migrants from the 19th century"



Many of the Chinese immigrants that remain have intermarried with white, black, and mulatto populations, and their children are of mixed races3. Once an island with thousands of people of Chinese descent, Cuba’s Chinese population and the Havana Chinatown is not as lively as it once was. https://www.panoramas.pitt.edu/health-and-society/chinatown-peru-brief-look-chinese-diaspora-latin-america

. May 15, 2008. claimed 114,240 Chinese-Cuban coolies with only 300 pure This is government statistics from world fact book

https://www.documentjournal.com/2019/07/barrio-chino-chinese-cubans-keep-culture-alive-in-havana/

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"Today, there are only 150 Chinese-born residents living in the Latin country, but somewhere around 114,000 Cubans with mixed Chinese"



Crossing Boundaries, Claiming a Homeland: The Mexican Chinese Transpacific Journey to Becoming Mexican, 1930s––1960s Julia Maríía Schiavone Camacho Pacific Historical Review (2009) 78 (4): 545–577.

https://online.ucpress.edu/phr/article/78/4/545/78937/Crossing-Boundaries-Claiming-a-Homeland-

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"This article follows Mexican Chinese families from Mexico, across the Mexican-U.S. border, to China, and back to Mexico. Settling in northern Mexico in the nineteenth century, Chinese formed multiple ties with Mexicans. An anti-Chinese movement emerged during the Mexican Revolution and peaked during the Great Depression. The Mexican government deported several thousand Chinese men and their Mexican-origin families from Sonora and neighboring Sinaloa, some directly to China and others to the United States, whose immigration agents also deported the families to China. They arrived in Guangdong (Canton) Province but eventually congregated in Macau where they forged a coherent Mexican Chinese enclave. Developing a strategic Mexican nationalism, they appealed for repatriation. The Mexican Chinese "became Mexican" only after authorities compelled them to struggle for years from abroad for the inclusion of their mixed-race families in the nation. They became diasporic citizens and fashioned hybrid identities to survive in Mexico and China."



Costa Rica: A Global Studies Handbook By Meg Tyler Mitchell, Margaret Tyler Mitchell, Scott Pentzer

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Most Chinese immigrants since then have been Cantonese, but in the last decades of the 20th century, a number of immigrants have alse come from Taiwan. Many men came alone to work and married Costa Rican women and speak Cantonese

http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?

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The Chinese originated from the Cantonese male migrants. Pure Chinese make up only 1% of the Costa Rican population, but according to Jacqueline M. Newman, as close to 10% of the people in Costa Rica are Chinese, if we count the people who are Chinese, married to a Chinese person, or of mixed Chinese descent.[1]



Chinese men have been in Guyana since 1853, and you here only talking about a single year recorded cases of 6 marriages in 1892. What makes you think that Chinese men only married in 1892 out of it's 150 years in Guyana ?

Cultural Power, Resistance, and Pluralism: Colonial Guyana, 1838-1900 By Brian L. Moore https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cx_9-X_-smoC&pg=PA272

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"destiny resided in Guyana; and also as Creole women began to consider Chinese men desirable 'marriage' partners"

Social Life in the Caribbean, 1838-1938. By Bridget Brereton https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f03rv7gJCBgC&pg=PA12 Quote

Like the Portugese, many Chinese men (for few women came ) married Creoles.

https://huf.us/1805345

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The 1943 census showed 12,394 Chinese residing in Jamaica. These were divided into three categories by the census, namely "China-born" (2,818), "local-born" (4,061), and "Chinese coloured" (5,515), the latter referring to multiracial people of mixed African and Chinese descent.



You rely on the opinion of Maria Jaschok, a book author that didn't even knew the meaning of what Pusaman and had no idea if they were Persian women. She uses realiable sources on recorded cased of Chinese men married to Persian women , Arab women including Chinese women. The only proplem is her assumption on numbers and statistics claiming many marriage, and another assumption is claiming no muslim women migrated to China, or that they were very few.


EVIDENCE: SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIM WOMEN MIGRATED TO CHINA


Firstable present evidence that Muslim women were in China in significant number. Sogdian, Persian, Arab women were found in Tang dynasty, Southern Han, Song dynasty from 10-12th century especially.


Investment and Employment Opportunities in China By Jeffrey Yi-Lin Forrest, Tao Lixin https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4m1YBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67

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Over time, the demographics of Guangdong slowly shifted with more Han Chinese and some Persian women massively migrating into the regions from the north during periods of political turmoil and nomadic incursions.

Memoirs of the Research Department

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At the foreign quarter , there lited of course many foreign women , and they were called by the Chinese Po - ssu - fu .
Rong, Xinjiang, "New light on Sogdian Colonies along the Silk Road
In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.

The Silk Road Encyclopedia https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UgOwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT763 Persian women who worked at publich houses in Chang'an during the Tang dynasty. A large number of Persian women were hired to entertain guests...... these women were as Huji.....Huji appear a suprising number of times in the work of Li Bai and other poets from Tang dynasty"

Walter Joseph Fischel (1951). Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949. Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012.

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"At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ..."


Persians women, Turkic women, Korean women were captured by Chinese and sold as slaves for hot commity

Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty By Charles D. Benn https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39

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Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do.

EVIDENCE: SIGINFICANT RECORDED NUMBER MARRIAGES OF CHINESE MEN MUSLIM WOMEN MARRIAGES

( Song dynasty, Southern Han, Tang dynasty )

https://books.google.com/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false (Li 8c Feng)

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"Song times: 'In the times of Wudai (907—960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song Dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia]198529)."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gc_3IXkwG3QC&pg=PA251 Women Shall Not Rule: Imperial Wives and Concubines in China from Han to Liao By Keith McMahon

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"Liu Chang's favorite consort was a Persian woman, with whom he practiced orgiastic games. “Liu Chang indulged himself "

University of Hawaii at Manoa. Center for Chinese Studies (2007). China Review International, Volume 14.

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During the same era, another young Chinese Emperor Wang Zongyan who was only 20 years old when he ascended the throne, had married a Persian woman as his concubine, Li Shunxian

Quote

"Of the Han Chinese Li family in Quanzhou, Li Nu, the son of Li Lu, visited Hormuz in Persia in 1376, married a Persian or an Arab woman, and brought her back to Quanzhou. He then converted to Islam. Li Nu was the ancestor of the Ming Dynasty reformer Li Chih.


The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism Michael Stausberg, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw Vevaina https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150 Quote

Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Sogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gradually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 )

Les sogdiens en Chine

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" The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women "
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"Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings"

and by the way many Sogdians were muslims Source: Bukhara, the Eastern Dome of Islam: Urban Development, Urban Space ... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sVgtKQdJrTMC&pg=PA18 "Soon after this many of the Sogdians, who had converted in masses to Islam, supported the Abbasid "revolution- " ( from 7th century )


WITH GENETIC EVIDENCE

Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a maternal marker common common in west Asian females and Iranian females population. Haplogroup W is believed to have originated around 23,900 years ago in Western Asia. You can see is prevalent in Persia (not Afghanistan)


Evidence of Chinese men marriage to Muslim women https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/19/10/1737/1258999

" 69 healthy and maternally unrelated Cantonese from southern China, Guangdong Province,"

"The latter all fall into the West Eurasian haplogroups JT, HV, U, W, X, and N1. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/

"Two mtDNAs, one sampled in Yunnan and the other in Liaoning, are regarded as resulting from admixture from western Eurasia (via central Asia), as they belong to the west Eurasian haplogroups HV and T1 "

Based on these evidence I think there is nothing wrong to say Chinese married Persian women in Guangzhou.



Only thing I agree is 14th century during the Ming dynasty Why I agree ? Because there is historical record, genetic descendants, physical descendants such as the Hui Chineseto prove it. Even though most Hui Chinese paternal and maternal are Han Chinese men/women it shows more muslim men married than muslim women

I do not agree with many muslim men married with Chinese women during the Tang dynasty and Song dynasty, or even Yuan dynasty and only a few Muslim women migrated. 1) That is 100% wrong, many records shows muslim women were numerous, significant present 2) DNA shows muslim descendants also there's signficant western maternal DNA 3) Not a single muslim descendants in Canton that trace back to Tang/Song dynasty unlike the Hui Chinese which are in western China.

So I agree with what is currently edited here unless you can prove me wrong.

The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T'ang Exotics By Edward H. Schafer https://books.google.com/books?id=jqAGIL02BWQC&pg=PA22

Quote

Intermarriage was initially discouraged by the Tang Dynasty. In 836 Lu Chun was appointed as governor of Canton, and was disgusted to find the Chinese living with foreigners and intermarrying. Lu enforced separation, banned interracial marriages, and made it illegal for foreigners to own property. Lu Chun believed his principles were just and upright.The 836 law specifically banned Chinese from forming relationships with "dark peoples" or "people of colour", which was used to describe foreigners, such as "Iranians, Sogdians, Arabs, Indians, Malays, Sumatrans", among others.


GENETIC EVIDENCE SHOWS HUI CHINESE HAVE ANCESTRY OF MUSLIM FROM BOTH SIDE.


7 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian maternal ancestry

Source.. Different Matrilineal Contributions to Genetic Structure of Ethnic Groups in the Silk Road Region in China https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048

Quote
"western Eurasian-specific haplogroup frequency was observed, with the highest frequency present in Uygur (42.6%) and Uzbek (41.4%) samples, followed by Kazak (30.2%), Mongolian (14.3%), and Hui (6.7%)."


30 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian paternal ancestry


The massive assimilation of indigenous East Asian populations in the origin of Muslim Hui people inferred from paternal Y chromosome https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23823

Quote
"Co‐analyzed with published worldwide populations, our results suggest the origin of Hui people has involved massive assimilation of indigenous East Asians with about 70% in total of the paternal ancestry could be traced back to East Asia and the left 30% to various regions in West Eurasia."

Quote

"The genetic structure of the extant Hui populations was primarily shaped by the indigenous East Asian populations as they contribute the majority part of the paternal lineages of Hui people. The West Eurasian admixture was probably a sex‐biased male‐driven process since we have not found such a high proportion of West Eurasian gene flow on autosomal STRs and maternal mtDNA"

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsos.190358

Quote
"According to historical records, ethnic Hui in China obtained substantial genetic components from western Eurasian populations during their Islamization. However, some scholars believed that the ancestry of Hui people were native Chinese populations."


Chinese wives and foreign husbands include apparently mostly from Hong Kong husbands and Taiwan husbands, Singaporean husbands. https://asiatimes.com/2019/03/hk-china-cross-border-marriages-increasing/

The most common type of Chinese-foreign marriage registered in mainland China until the late 2000s was between a mainland Chinese woman and a man from Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan. Nearly 8,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 1979. That figure peaked at slightly more than 48,000 in 2003. However, the number of such marriages has been declining, on average, since then. Fewer than 18,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 2010, which is lower than the number of marriages involving ‘foreign nationals’.


Korean women with foreign men ( Mongols, Chinese soldiers, Manchu soldiers, emperors Muslim, Turkic )

Kyung Moon Hwang is a Korean https://books.google.com/books?id=B7WrDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT64 https://books.google.com/books?id=Rjy7DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA47

Kyung Moon Hwang says the official number of Korean women in the Yuan is actually a gross underestimation and there were many more.


In North Korea: an American travels through an imprisoned nation. Nanchu, Xing Hang. McFarland, 2003 - History - 197 pages https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VXlTBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT23

Quote
" especially after the Korean War, thousands of Chinese Volunteer soldiers were ordered to stay behind and marry the North Korean women in order to increase the population. "

Women in Korean History 한국 역사 속의 여성들 Pae-yong Yi Ewha Womans University Press, 2008 - Korea - 319 pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_invasion_of_Joseon Many Korean women were kidnapped and were raped at the hand of the Qing forces, and as a result were unwelcomed by their families even if they were released by the Qing after being ransomed.[2] In 1648 Joseon was forced to provide several of their royal princesses as concubines to the Qing regent Prince Dorgon.[3][4]



Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia Under the Mongols By David M. Robinson https://books.google.com/books?id=PDjWpqU55eMC&pg=PA53

Quote
"Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryo families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryo women to the Mongol empire."
"What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryo and the Mongol Empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryo to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryo also requested Koryo brides for themselves."


MASSIVE NUMBER OF KOREAN WOMEN WITH FOREIGN MEN NOT JUST 1,500

"The number of Koryo women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryo tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryo court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since elite Koryo women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficienty significant to merit mention in official records. Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests."


Korean women with Mongolian men, Uyghur men, Muslim men

Quote
Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryo beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad. As one fourteenth-century Chinese observer familiar with the court in Daidu observed:


Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty By Charles D. Benn https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39

Quote
" Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do."

References

  1. ^ Newman, Jacqueline M. (Spring 2000). "Chinese Food in Costa Rica". Flavor and Fortune. 7 (1): 15–16.
  2. ^ Pae-yong Yi (2008). Women in Korean History 한국 역사 속의 여성들. Ewha Womans University Press. pp. 114–. ISBN 978-89-7300-772-1.
  3. ^ Hummel, edited by Arthur W. (1991). Eminent Chinese of the Ch'ing period : (1644 - 1912) (Repr. ed.). Taipei: SMC Publ. p. 217. ISBN 9789576380662. ((cite book)): |first1= has generic name (help)
  4. ^ Jr, Frederic Wakeman (1985). The great enterprise : the Manchu reconstruction of imperial order in seventeenth-century China (Book on demand. ed.). Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 892. ISBN 9780520048041. dorgon korean princess.

Vamlos (talk) 15:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was fed up with your madness, so I looked for the cause.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-trafficking-in-persons-report-2/republic-of-korea/ Numerous Chinese women have been sold to Korean men and U.S. soldiers. http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2006-09-13/112610009032s.shtml According to the data, many Chinese women seem to prefer Korean men. https://www.secretchina.com/news/gb/2011/12/07/432007.html http://m.90hc.com/shehui/zhenqing/165682.html Perhaps hundreds of thousands of Chinese women are marrying Korean men. http://www.lovehhy.net/html/AUTO/DZH/10666.htm http://www.lovehhy.net/html/AUTO/DZH/10666.htm Mongolians owned most of the Chinese women. Maybe you are jealous of Mongolia, Korea ,Arab for this reason. but I have no interest in Korea or Mongolia that you hate. I'm not interested in your fight. If you have any objections, go to the Chinese media or the Korean people and complain. Don't disturb the debate.Bablos939 (talk) 10:31, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vamlos (talk) sorry but you look to be in the wrong here, all your links do state that some people have Chinese ancestry like you claim, however it doesn't ever say that its 'Chinese men', it only says 'Chinese people' these 'people' could all be females and you just claim them to be men without any proof, when you say 'Chinese men and ____ women' it should be 'Chinese people and ____ people' you are spreading misinformation when claiming only Chinese men are the ones marring foreigners, Bablos939 might be racist as you claim, or they might not be racist, but either way, this is editing abuse and it can get you in serious trouble. -- Toby Mitches (talk) 01:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
He has created a different ID and is repeating the lie.[[1]] Most of the data he presented is groundless and even distorted. He seems to have an inferiority complex about white people and Koreans taking up a lot of Chinese women. He is delusional to reject reality.He is intended to interfere with the editing. We must report him quickly and normalize the editing.Bablos939 (talk) 10:31, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY TO Toby Mitches'

I was supposed to reply to Toby Mitches but Bablos939 edited by distorted the commentary by sandwiching the reply of Toby Mitches and saying offensive things towards Chinese women which is against wikipedia rules. Very offensive now that I read it again. This is targeting a ethnic group indiscrimately despite the fact he uses misleading articles with exaggerations. I find this very offensive and this isn't the first time according to the link he posted. On his talk page the same extremely offensive comments had been made and he did again.

I didn't say Bablos939 was racist. It's you and the other members who said he was racist. I simply said he was anti-Chinese. I suggest that we contact the other 5 or 6 wiki editors (of all checked, one was a sockpuppet waterfalls ) that have previously discussed with Bablos939 in the archive 2. several admins/highly respected editor have already rejected or didn't response to Bablos939 request but he continues. This is basically just another revival of the same questions that were already long put to rest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_2

My accusations was inappropriate. I'm sorry for deciding everything too quickly. But there should be a sockpuppet investigation to see if there's signs of sockpuppetry in casting additional votes ( to create the illusion of fake concesus agreement ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_sockpuppetry#Casting_additional_votes

One of the editors that was against Bablos939 was Watersinfalls. A sockpuppet investigation and found he was was a sock and there was a sockpuppet investigation

I was wrong for judging this is sockpuppetry this is because I've checked both of the wikipedian users

they had never edited anything until now. I've looked up at ip-address-lookup-v4.com and it shows both come from South Korea, Seoul city. And since Bablos939 have Korean google translations everything time he copies and paste a link.

TO BABLOS939. We all know various ethnicity like Chinese women, Chinese-Korean women, Korean women, Russian women, Ukrainian women all are victims of trafficking's to East Asia or to Europe, Australia ect. Both Chinese women and Korean women make up most of the trafficked prostitutes in East Asia,even in Australia where sadly they can't tell the difference but this has nothing to do with interracial marriage. Vamlos (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

response to Vamlos

FIRST of all, regardless of what Bablos939 (talk) has done in the past, I think his claim on this wiki page is true, however I will instead response to Vamlos (talk) as I believe he is the true one vandalizing this page, I tried to have a civil discussion with Vamlos but he hasn't responded and even if he did, I don't think it would be progressive as Vamlos appears to have radical beliefs and that his the one behind all the editing abuse on this page.


Double standard: Despite claiming Bablos939 to be a racist against Chinese men, Vamlos appears to be a racist against Korean men, just by simply reading Vamlos' SECOND 'point' you can see that he has a bias towards Chinese men, claiming that 'Historically there was indeed massive number of Southern Chinese coolies males that intermarried with females of Latin America' which is true, but not to the scale he later claims, he also talks down upon Korean men claiming 'Korean men historically never had any adventure or male worked as slave labours overseas and intermarried with females' this statement is incorrect, he also mentions a paragraph about Chinese women having interracial marriage, however he backs up his claim by stating 'conquerers invaders but it could really large numbers were raped and used as sexual slaves' but than also states 'Chinese were also able to conquer foreign invaders and as result marry foreign female invaders including many women of foreign regions' when mentioning foreigners conquering China he claims the women 'were raped and used as sexual slaves' but when referring to Chinese men conquering foreign countries he states 'as result marry foreign female invaders including many women of foreign regions' in Vamlos' SECOND 'point' he shows a clear bias towards Chinese men and discredits Korean men and Chinese women, Vamlos appears to show a radical belief that Chinese men are the superior and because of this I believe that Vamlos is sockpuppeting.


Vamlos looks to be behind all this: The Interracial marriage wiki page is horribly vandalized, just by simply reading it one can clearly note the strange amount of times 'Chinese men' are referred to constantly claiming they are the superior and how they always are the ones to marry outside their race however when you check the link, there always seems to be some inconsistent or strange thing about the source, which I'll go into more depth later on, but sometimes, like the 'Chinese men Manchu women', the source and link is believable, but most of the time there is something wrong with the linked source, these edits are common on this page and are very odd, it would be strange that a set of people are constantly linking sources relating to 'Chinese men' always claiming them as the superior, this is why I believe someone is vandalizing this page and I believe one of their many accounts to be Vamlos.


Misinformation and cherry picking: a source is always sited and most of the time its readable, however almost all the sources are inconsistent in some way or another.

Providing multiple inconsistent sources in his statement under 'Chinese men peruvian women' in one source he states 'The number of children born of such marriages estimated by my informants to be more than 180,000. Half of that number is Lima, with the ration between Chinese mestizo and the full-blooded Chinese at 90,000 to 15,000, or six to one' but than in another source he states 'mixed Peruvian-Chinese ancestry, locally known as Tusan.7 The Tusan are thought to be quite numerous: Up to 2.5 million people, or 8 percent of Peru’s population of 31 million may have Chinese ancestry' these numbers clearly don't match, Peru has a population of around 31 million, how could so many people be related to only 180,000+ members of the Chinese community .

Cherry picking wrong sources is one of his most common offences, just to list a few examples, in this statement 'Chinese men Mexican women' he claims 'The Mexican government deported several thousand Chinese men and their Mexican-origin families' however I never found any other source claiming such high numbers and explicitly claiming men or anyone getting deported, instead realistic numbers already exist on wiki on the Chinese immigration to Mexico claiming 'According to the government of Mexico City, about 3,000 families in the city have Chinese heritage.' Also all Vamlos' claims are cherry picking wrong sources, his statement on 'Chinese men Cuban women' claiming '114,000 Cubans with mixed Chinese' can only be traced to one sourced website, no other source claims this number, same with his claims on 'Chinese men Costa Rican women' where he states 'close to 10% of the people in Costa Rica are Chinese' when in reality Costa Rica's Chinese population is less than half of one percent.

Fixation on DNA isn't an offends, however they have a noticeable clear obsession with trying to prove Chinese people have effected other people groups by proving it with DNA, however there is clear misinformation almost every time, in his 'Chinese men Muslim women ( Persian women, Sogdian women, Iranian women, Arab women, Turkic women )' he constantly links sources saying Persian women are in China and how they have come to study but hardly has any sources where they intermarriage, only a couple stating that the Li Dynasty official families liked to marry Persian women, however he than states that Persian DNA has changed overtime due to the intermarrying 'WITH GENETIC EVIDENCE Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a maternal marker common common in west Asian females and Iranian females population. Haplogrou W is believed to have originated around 23,900 years ago in Western Asia. You can see is prevalent in Persia (not Afghanistan)' however this doesn't make much common sense considering that the only few Persian which intermarried were with Royal families and as for the Persian women who were 'studying' in China, even if they did intermarry with the local Chinese men, how would that effect the DNA of Persian people in Persia. This can also be tied into the cherry picking idea as he also stated 'Thousands of Chinese men (mostly Hakka) and Indian men married local Jamaican women. The study "Y-chromosomal diversity in Haiti and Jamaica: Contrasting levels of sex-biased gene flow" shows the paternal Chinese haplogroup O-M175 at a frequency of 3.8% in local Jamaicans ( non-Chinese Jamaicans) including the Indian H-M69 (0.6%) and L-M20 (0.6%) in local Jamaicans.[177] Among the country's most notable Afro-Asians are reggae singers Sean Paul, Tami Chynn and Diana King.' However many other source say otherwise: (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.22090)

Misinforming statements to further his idea, some sources only state Chinese people intermarrying with other groups of people and doesn't mention a explicated gender, for example he mentions Chinese men with Jamaican women and uses the source: (https://huf.us/180534), however this link only says 'The 1943 census showed 12,394 Chinese residing in Jamaica. These were divided into three categories by the census, namely "China-born" (2,818), "local-born" (4,061), and "Chinese coloured" (5,515), the latter referring to multiracial people of mixed African and Chinese descent.' nowhere does this state Chinese men explicitly.


Vamlos is here for all the wrong reasons: The reason why I and many other people edit wiki is to help contribute to expending the accurate information on this website however Vamlos makes his indent clear, you can tell just by reading the Interracial marriage wiki and reading his response above (which I only lightly touched upon, I encourage you to read his whole statement above) that he is here with malicious intent to paint Chinese men as the superior and discard Korean men and Chinese women by vandalizing this page with his suspected sockpuppeting bias towards Chinese men, what has been done here is clear Abuse Reporting and something must be done. Also a quick message to Vamlos (talk) I want you to know its not too late, if you really did edit these pages with malicious intent, you are still able to change them and I encourage you to do the right thing here before more people get involved, I rest my case. -- Toby Mitches (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support your opinion. He rejects reliable data on Chinese women and foreign men as a whole. On the other hand, false information about foreign men and Chinese women is believed to be religious. He is based on the travel journal of an unknown writer. What's more funny is that he believes the absurd remarks of the guide, whose identity in the book is unknown, are true. [[2]] Bablos939 (talk) 10:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's too many innpropriate comments. According to these rules WP:CIVIL, WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:NPA the discussion should be civil and not accuse one another. I already made changes to my own edits but I now recieve wrongful accusations against me, claiming I have malicious intention to paint Chinese men superior when these data had all been edited since 5-6 years ago or 7-8 years ago by many different editors. Where I discard Korean men ? I have searched for their history and it's true there isn't anything you can find. I don't know why all these accusations is made against me. Accusing me of vandalizing and making false accusations and as for Bablos939 recent new comments are discriminately extremely offensive and abusive comments towards Chinese women and this is the 2nd time. If there's a report for Abuse Reporting I don't believe there's anything clear more offensive against recent comments made against Chinese women. I've made already my changes to fit with wikipedia rules. I'm not here for the wrong reasons because I know every data posted is correct. I never once rejected reliable data on Chinese women and foreign men but I can see misinterpretations. I never once denied there is more Chinese women marrying out than Chinese men but I also don't agree that you try to make Chinese women and Hong Kong men, Taiwanese men as foreign men when they are in reality ethnic Chinese. Also like the claim that there only a very few marriage or sexual relation of Chinese men in Cuba and Peru, when that's only in the begginning of few years. Please remember that Chinese coolies/migrants have lived Latin America for 170 years on the other you claimed they have no contact or no any relationship based on the beginnihg of their few years. The source for Peru for example, you included only the small part when the whole sentence reffered that Chinese only had no contact with Peruvian wome when it's only 4-8 years or longer. Chinese have made massive numbers of intermarriage starting around 1880's not when they were shipped and had almost no contact in the beginning of years.Vamlos (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Toby Mitches

Data I used was already written in the previous wikipedia disuccusion now in archive 2. I suggest we contact the other wikipedia users who had long debated with Bablos939 as shown in the archives of which were already put to rest but were revived on here. They have successfully given their opinions and the discussion led to nowhere so they archived it. The result was 5-6 of the users were against (although of them checked one have been banned for sockpuppetry). It would be extremely unfair not to contact them given that they had no idea what was going on and this was contuning after 1-2 month later. Let them know if they are interested in joining the dicussion again.

Type Chinese peruvian, Chinese cuban, Chinese costa rican, Chinese mexican ect and you will see that they are heavily mixed. You can even find videos of these people who look almost nothing Chinese (some more ,some less than others ) but speaking Cantonese (a dialect of or a different type of Chinese language ) although they only know a several words

What's edited on those wikipedia seems to have existed since 2015 or even longer. I din't write none of that stuff in wikipedia that existed since 7-8 years ago. I also cannot find the the several thousands Chinese men and their families deported. Nobody even wrote that in the wiki page

Anyway evidence of Chinese-Mexicans shows the wikipedia is correct.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinese-mexicans-expelled-during-xenophobic-period-celebrate-anniversary-of-repatriation

FROM Fox News

"Mexican women who married Chinese men were considered traitors, and in some cases families disowned them. With the Great Depression, large numbers of destitute Mexicans began returning home from the United States and resentment about the financial success of Chinese people grew. "
"In 1930, Mexico had 18,000 Chinese citizens and Mexicans of Chinese descent. By 1940, there were only 4,800, Gonzalez said."
"Today, there are at least 70,000 Chinese citizens and Chinese-Mexicans in the country, according to a report in 2008 by the Foreign Relations Department. "

Chinese men and Mexican women

The Chinese in Mexico, 1882-1940

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U3GQ7o3HV1cC&pg=PA86&dq=large+number+chinese+men+mexican+women&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_tZ3tlI3sAhXLUBUIHc1lAfUQ6AEwAHoECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=large%20number%20chinese%20men%20mexican%20women&f=false

"Between 1911 and 1928, some 22,319 Chinese male emigrants and nationalized Mexican citizens.... compared with only 307 women "
"we learn that intermarriage between Chinese men and female Mexican nationals was a relatively frequent phenomenon"

FOR EXAMPLE. In only the two states of Chihuahua and Hermomsillo

"Chihuahua and Hermomsillo manucrscripts reveal that a few Chinese brought Chinese wives to Mexico.Finally, the mucipal census manuscripts of these two state capitals also demonstrate that the Chinese immigrant community of Mexico was not traditional bachelor society, based upon the many records o Mexican born offspring produced as a a consequence of martial and extramartial unions between Chinese immigrants and Chinese and mexican women"


Chinese men Cuban women

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1904408/cubas-chinatown-bears-ghosts-past-and-hope-future

" The Chinese-Cuban Community Just 300 Chinese of non-mixed descent lived in Cuba in 2008, according to the CIA's world fact book, which estimated that the ethnic heritage of more than 114,000 Cubans was partly Chinese. "

https://www.bjp-online.com/2019/04/sean-alexander-geraghty-havana-chinese-community/

" Essa is a member of the Lung Kong Society and is one of the approximately 150 pure Chinese left in Cuba. Some of the oldest members like her still speak their native Cantonese among themselves. "
" Chinese immigration to Cuba was predominantly male, this further facilitated the mix of Chinese people with Cubans of all heritages, creating a unique multi layered identity. Kids like Rene are the faces of the new generation of Chinese Cubans © Sean Alexander Geraghty "


IRANIAN WOMEN CHINESE MEN?

The massive evidence can be seen on archive 2 which shows multiple evidence of numerous Iranian/Persian gulf female to China. Is it necessarily that I must do so much work. And at least there's evidence for it.

1 out of 69 of sample showed mtDNA W of Southern Chinese(Cantonese) if you look at the genetic papers.
We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China.

"from 69 healthy and maternally unrelated Cantonese from southern China, Guangdong Province,"


I WILL CONTINUE LATER.... Too much information has been thrown at me at the same times. I propose that we wait for the others. I'm not exactly the greatest expert in searching for info and I really don't want to invest so much time on something that's already been discussed previously by the others Vamlos (talk) 14:00, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]


I WILL CONTINUE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTION


Providing multiple inconsistent sources in his statement under 'Chinese men peruvian women'

Not sure how you can claim they are iconsistent sources when mainstream estimates would put them anywhere near from 5% to 15% Peruvian population Chinese ancestry. Why would not many members be related to 180,000 members. 180,000 of Chinese who are 50% or 100%. Also the 2.5 million people of Chinese ancestry could be as much as only 33%, 25%, 12.5%, 6%, 3%, 1.5%. People of Chinese ancestry are not only those born to 100% Chinese parents or 50%.


Cherry picking wrong sources is one of his most common offences

Every source that I used is backed by references and credible statistic.

Bablos939 took out one small sentence without including the rest. Very misleading

FOR EXAMPLE....he wrote

(A)-2 Peru 'the men(Chinese) had almost no contact with local women in Peru.' ( completely cut off the original sentences )

This is how the sentence suppose to be

" More than 100,000 coolies were thus brought to Peru between 1849 and 1874. Th is large group of immigrants was characterized by its masculinity, the almost total absence of women. During their contract, which ran from four to eight years, often longer depending on the goodwill of the hacendados, the men had almost no contact with the local women. "
Almost no contact with women from four to eight years or longer (10 years) from 1849 to 1874 and Chinese had been in Peru for 170 years. And marriages and contacts became very common after the end of their slave contracts. But this was obviously not included on purpose.
Plantation Agriculture and Social Control in Northern Peru, 1875–1933
By Michael J. Gonzales https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IhfhDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA100
"Sacchetti, writing in the Boletin Del Ministerio de Fomento in 1905, ascribed the " progessive degeneration" of the Chinese to the fact that some had bred with blacks and Indians. Then there is sad case of the Chinese at Cayalti who contracted syphilis, a sure sign of sexual contact. Of more signficant, however is the fact that mass marriages were arranged between Chinese and Indians at Casa Grande."


ANOTHER EXAMPLE

(A)-1 Cuba 'There is anecdotal evidence that Chinese men in Cuba and Peru married or had sexual relationships with white,black,mulatto and Indian women (....if you keep reading )

"Immediatly followed by ( Bablos939 left this out ) "The extend of this intermarriage is hard to determine"
The Cuban reported only few marriages, but when did the wikipedia says that most Chinese Cuban are the result of marriages in facts in clearly says most did not marry (because it happened mostly with sexual relations ) and besides that many marriages had not been reported either. What's important is that there a large number claiming to be partial Chinese descent and to add more there's many Chinese. Ancedotal is based on personal accounts, not neccesarily true or reliable. I also agree historical accounts is far more reliable with genetics, the people who claimed to be Chinese descent, and the official estimates from the government of it's country.


Fixation on DNA isn't an offends, however they have a noticeable clear obsession with trying to prove Chinese people have effected other people groups by proving it with DNA

There have been many recorded historical incidents of Persian women or female of Persian Gulf, or Iranian women marrying Chinese men and presence of Persian, Sogdian females have been recorded from Tang dynasty, Song dynasty, Ming dynasty. All women from Persian Gulf were all considered Persian . The mtDNA evidence just futher confirms those historical records. Now as for Chinese women the Hui Chinese genetics shows 6.7% West Eaurasian female ancestry but 30% West Eurasian male ancestry, meaning most marriages were definately west eurasian males and chinese females. The evidence is in the Hui Chinese who clearly have Persian, Arab, Central Asian ancestry.
For Turkic women it was properly even more common during the Qing dynasty and Republic of China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty
The Art of Symbolic Resistance: Uyghur Identities and Uyghur-Han Relations ...
By Joanne N. Smith Finley
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LQBBAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA309&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
"From 1911-1949 when the Kuomintang ruled, many Uyghur girls approached Han soldiers for relationships"

Misinforming statements to further his idea Misinforming statements to further his idea, some sources only state Chinese people intermarrying with other groups of people and doesn't mention a explicated gender.

When you know very well that the gender are almost all males why would you need to think of which gender it is. There is no mention of Chinese women marrying during the early centuries in Carribeans only until recently there is more wave of migrants in 21st century. We are talking about 19th- early 20th century. The link of the source on 3.8% Chinese paternal is very clear that it sats sex biasesd gene flow, there's no mention of Chinese women (although they properly existed )
The source says this " Simms TM, Wright MR, Hernandez M, et al. (August 2012). "Y-chromosomal diversity in Haiti and Jamaica: contrasting levels of sex-biased gene flow". American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 148 (4): ". There was indeed a sex as males were almost all immigrants leaving no choice but to marry Carribean women.

I will wait. I will also take some time to reseach more. I also prefer the others who disccussed here join the dicussion. -Vamlos (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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