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Alleged[edit]

Should this article exist right now? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:16, 17 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay, per WP:PERP, I thought I'd ask. I think a few days ago there was no confession or an alleged confession. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:45, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Anna Frodesiak: I had similar concerns, and I honestly still don't think the article should be about him but about the crime. I've laid out my guideline/policy concerns below if you want to take a look. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 13:22, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi cymru.lass. Even if it is about the crime, it would still have to mention the man.

My view is still: If he confessed, well, okay, but just slightly okay because it is an allegation and there is just one private confession, possibly under duress, possibly coerced, possibly fiction. If this guy ends up in court and it turns out he was framed, then Wikipedia really did harm.

I started the Larry Nassar article when only 20 women had come forward, and that was speedy delete. Sure, he hadn't confessed, but I'd take 20 women pointing at Nassar over a bunch of US cops in 2018, considering what they've been up to across the country. That said, sure, the confession is likely real.

As for ONEEVENT, obviously that doesn't apply.

I like your open rename "Juan David Ortiz --> ?" That was a good idea. I've seen many an RfC end with the need for another because a name change was needed but the suggested name was unsuitable.

Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Requested move 19 September 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 19:18, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Juan David Ortiz → ? – The crime is notable; the man is not. See WP:CRIMINAL. I'm proposing we move this article to something like "Laredo killings" (or a better name). cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 19:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oppose Of course he's notable, in a notorious way, of course, but notable. Even with his name in quotes, I get over a million Google hits. If you really think he's not notable, submit the article for deletion, not moving. --В²C ☎ 22:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Born2cycle: I think the crime is notable; the perpetrator isn't. That follows with the notability guidelines for crime perfectly. The crime has received multiple in-depth analyses and reporting. The perpetrator is only discussed within the context of the crime. Per WP:NCRIME, "media coverage can confer notability on a high-profile criminal act" (emphasis added. And per WP:CRIMINAL, "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article" (emphasis added again). I think that dovetails with the discussion at hand. In depth media coverage in several reliable sources had conferred notability on this crime; but the perpetrator is still only covered as they relate to the crime. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 00:37, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- I think that guidance is inconsistent with general notability guidelines. If you look at pure notability guidelines, there's no question about notability. I understand the inclination to avoid giving criminals the "honor" of a WP page, but the fact is people are going to be looking for this person and whatever information is available about him, and we should reflect that. --В²C ☎ 00:44, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Born2cycle: Well, WP:BLP1E is a policy, not a guideline, and it also clearly plays a part here since Ortiz is only notable for this one event, and is likely to not become notable for any other reason. And that policy clearly states that " Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article." I spent a while looking at our various policies and guidelines on these types of events before proposing this move; if you have a policy or guideline concern I've missed, I'd love to hear it. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 13:21, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not one event. There wouldn't be over a million hits on his name if it were. There are multiple murders, the arrest, the confession, and there are sure to be many more. The structure of the article is a biography, and the current title is apt. BLP1E also says: "The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources.". This is not a flash-in-the pan news story. But I get what you're saying. Craig Peyer, the CHP officer who brutally killed Cara Knott, is a redirect to an article about that brutal crime. But I disagree with that. I think we should have a biography on that monster. The information is out there; this policy suppresses it on WP. I disagree with that. There is even a book about Peyer, but WP readers wouldn't know, because we don't even have an article about him. I don't think this approach serves our readers well. --В²C ☎ 15:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is one event - the serial killings. A series of murders can be construed to be one "criminal event". And yes, there very well may be a million hits related to that one event (plus some for other Juan David Ortizes). I fail to see how what BLP1E says about persistence of coverage has to do with keeping the article at the current title, because again, all the coverage is about the killings, and Ortiz only in connection to the killings. If you don't agree with the policy, then start an RfC about it. One article is not the place to suddenly decide we don't follow policy anymore. And not liking policy is not a proper argument to make here. cymru.lass (talk • contribs)
Yes, one article is the place, to start. I explained why WP works that way, years ago, here. I'm opposing based on good reasons to improve WP as laid out above, per WP:IAR, not WP:JDLI. --В²C ☎ 16:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
IAR is for when the letter of the law conflicts with the spirit of the law. We put BLP1E in place for a reason, and I don't really see any good rationale for ignoring the rules here. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 17:10, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay. And I think my rationale is good. So, we disagree. That's okay. --В²C ☎ 18:42, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also, "serial killings" is plural, not one event. So, we disagree on that point too. That also is okay. --В²C ☎ 18:49, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment. Wikipedia has numerous articles in which the perpetrator's name redirects to the main title header describing the crime: Edward Charles Allaway → California State University, Fullerton, massacre; David Attias → 2001 Isla Vista killings; Thomas Watt Hamilton → Dunblane massacre; Michael Hayes (mass murderer) → Old Salisbury Road shooting; Victor Ernest Hoffman → Shell Lake murders; Seiji Katagiri → Japan Airlines Flight 350; Omeed Aziz Popal → 2006 San Francisco SUV rampage; Esteban Santiago-Ruiz → Fort Lauderdale airport shooting; Robert Sartin → Monkseaton shootings; Akayed Ullah → 2017 New York City attempted bombing, to name but ten. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:37, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Yes, and I just mentioned the Craig Peyer murder of Cara Knott above. I think these are all examples of what's wrong with this policy - we suppress information that's out there by not having biographies about these sociopaths. --В²C ☎ 15:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  - And again, not liking policy is not an appropriate rationale for discussions. If you don't like the policy, move to have it changed. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 16:20, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose - I may be a bit bias as I am the editor who first started this article, but I believe the move rational is flawed. In all the instances Roman Spinner mentioned, there were all homicides that took place on a single date. Ortiz's crimes spanned several weeks. Also the target name Cymru.lass mentioned would also be inappropriate as Ortiz's victims were killed in rural parts of Webb County, Texas, not in Laredo itself, although that is where the perpetrator and the victims were from. As Ortiz's crimes occurred on different dates and different people, WP:BLP1E does not apply in this instance. Inter&anthro (talk) 17:59, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment - ONEEVENT does not apply. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Anna Frodesiak: I'm curious as to why BLP1E doesn't apply here. Yes, they are separate killings, but the media seems to be treating the killings as a unit, making them one "event" in my eyes. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 18:59, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm striking my comment as I'm not even sure this article should exist right now. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:25, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oppose Mass murderers tend to be redirected to the event article because the killings are one big event. Serial killers have their own article because the killings are multiple events. We can't just make up rules here, would you suggest moving Ted Bundy to Bundy killings? We'd have to move every serial article to some made up title if this case succeeds, we can't pick and choose. GuzzyG (talk) 13:47, 23 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

About the date on which Juan David Ortiz was arrested[edit]

At the time of this writing, this article lists Juan David Ortiz's "Date apprehended" as September 16, 2018. I would like to contest that "Date apprehended", because, as far as I can tell, going by several sources that I have seen, Juan David Ortiz was arrested September 15, 2018, not September 16, 2018.

For example, check out this source, from The Guardian. From the link in question: "Juan David Ortiz was arrested on Saturday after he was found hiding in a truck in a hotel parking lot in Laredo." The source is dated "Sun 16 Sep 2018" which I assume stands for "Sunday 16 September 2018". So if September 16, 2018 was a Sunday, September 15, 2018 would be a Saturday. Here are several other sources that say that he was arrested on a Saturday: From The Seattle Times: "Ortiz, a 10-year Border Patrol veteran, was arrested early Saturday after the fifth woman escaped and found a state trooper". And that source was originally published September 15, 2018. From abc15: "LAREDO, TX - A U.S. Border Patrol agent suspected of killing four women was arrested early Saturday after a fifth woman who had been abducted managed to escape from him and notify authorities, law enforcement officials said, describing the agent as a "serial killer."

Juan David Ortiz, an intel supervisor for the Border Patrol, fled from state troopers and was found hiding in a truck in a hotel parking lot in Laredo at around 2 a.m. Saturday, Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar said at a news conference in the border city about 145 miles (235 kilometers) southwest of San Antonio." From abc30: "LAREDO, Texas -- A U.S. Border Patrol agent was arrested early Saturday on the suspicion that he killed four prostitutes and abducted a fifth, who escaped.

The agent, Juan David Ortiz, was captured after a woman whom he tried to abduct escaped, Webb County District Attorney Isidro Alaniz said at a news conference. Sheriff Martin Cuellar said Ortiz fled from state troopers and was found hiding in the parking lot of a hotel in Laredo, a border city about 145 miles (235 kilometers) southwest of San Antonio." And that source is dated Saturday, September 15, 2018. From The New York Times: "ALBUQUERQUE — A United States Border Patrol agent was arrested in South Texas on Saturday in connection to a calculated killing spree that left four people dead in recent weeks around the city of Laredo, the authorities said.

Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar said police officers arrested the agent, Juan David Ortiz, early on Saturday morning after a woman who claimed she had been abducted by Mr. Ortiz escaped half-clothed and sought help at a gas station in Laredo." That source is dated Sept. 15, 2018. Here is another source, dated September 15, 2018, from CBS NEWS. From the link in question: "A U.S. Border Patrol agent suspected of killing four women was arrested early Saturday after a fifth woman who had been abducted managed to escape from him and notify authorities, law enforcement officials said, describing the agent as a "serial killer."

Since I have found several sources that indicate that he was arrested September 15, 2018, I would like to contest the September 16, 2018 "Date apprehended". I would like to discuss it with other editors and get a concensus regarding the "Date apprehended". Heart of Destruction (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is "serial killer" the proper term?[edit]

At the time of this writing, the serial killer-article says "A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people,[1] usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant period of time between them.". According to this article (at the time of this writing), Juan David Ortiz is suspected of four murders committed over a period of about twelve days (September 3, 2018–September 15, 2018). Isn't that too short a period for the "serial killer"-description? Heart of Destruction (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes I think it is proper to consider Ortiz a serial killer vs. a mass murderer or spree killer or some other term for two reasons: (1) Ortiz's victims were killed in seperate events with usually a couple days in between them, (2) it has not rulled out yet that Ortiz may have had additional victims. As the Samuel Little case shows details of additional victims may not surface for years if not decades. Wikipedia of course does not rely on assumptions, so I feel the term "suspected serial killer" is the best to describe Ortiz at the moment. It is also the term most widely used in the coverage, so there is that WP:COMMONNAME aspect as well. Inter&anthro (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC) Just a couple days is not a significant period of time and as for the possible additional victims he has not been connected to any more so that would only be a suspected serial killer. So for now he should be called both a spree killer and suspected serial killer.--2601:206:301:4A90:EE9A:24DC:889A:3C52 (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]