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Just wanted to say that there is no use for this article as we already have a heraldry article, which we could have just added some of this information to. In anycase, I would like to mention that unlike much of the rest of Western Europe, Germany does not associate itself with the lion much. The Tiger (under Nazi Germany) and leopard (before Nazi Germany and now) are/were the choice for some coat of arms in Germany. The eagle is by far the main animal that you will most often find in German heraldry, however. With this said, I took out the black panthers (leopards) that were mistaken for lions from the coat of arms of some German states and districts. I kept the coat of arms of Thuringia because it is a lion and I added other coat of arms from different nations and/or cities, states and districts just to make it a little more diverse. User:TheGoodSon
True enough. Leopards are often depicted as stalking (as seen here Baden-Württemberg) or in upright positions, while lions are usually just standing or rampant. User: TheGoodSon
I removed the UK arms because England and Scotland are also displayed separately (and more visibly!). If there are images of the crests only, those might be added.
Thuringia could also be dropped, as it is obviously derived from Hesse.
We probably don't really need so many examples of "a shield with a lion, supported by two lions", particularly at this size. —Tamfang 19:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Thegoodson writes:
How do you tell the difference?
What's the German word for the monster (which cannot be mistaken for a lion) in the arms of Styria? In English it's a panther.
Remember? I've lived 45 years without ever hearing it before. We learn something every day!
And leopards have? How do you tell them apart? Anyway, so what? Mullets have (so far as I know) no special significance in Britain or France, where they appear most frequently in arms.
Not that I object to limiting the number of examples. —Tamfang 06:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I got out Neubecker's Deutsch und Französisch für Heraldiker, a bilingual glossary. It's the only bilingual wordbook I have that does not separate the two vocabularies, so these entries appear together:
Which implies that German blazon optionally follows French in calling a lion passant gardant a "leopard", though the analytic style as in English is also known. —Tamfang 06:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Instead of adding a leopard section into lion article, I propose to rename it into Heraldic beast which would contain both (and more) with proper redirects, of course. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reference or source for the statement that the Bohemian two-tailed lion 'originally was an artist's flourish'?
I'm not contesting it - merely fascinated. I found a reference to the Santiago Dotor, 9 Sep 2002 which says:
"The oldest arms of the Kings of Bohemia showed in silver a black eagle, covered with golden tears (still used by the Italian region Trient). The silver double-tailed lion was introduced by King Ottokar_II_of_Bohemia in 1249. Ever since the double-tailed lion remained on the arms of Bohemia."
If it's that old, I'd assume that the only evidence for the Artistic Flourish Hypothesis would be particularly ancient images showing that flourish. Anybody have one?
Purely in the interest of science, you understand... --Cdavis999 (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Shouldnt it be noted that Passant also means Guardant? Ive seen it both ways.♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 06:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I see, would not the Welsh arms be passant and guardant as well then? The lions there are also facing the viewer. I have not seen any other entry for a guardant lion yet.♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 04:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Should we then not make another entry for the guardant and give examples? Because it may confuse, as it did me, the differences. ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 08:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just come across this term, which appears to mean a lion depicted without the tail, a change in arms forced upon the bearer when he fell from grace with the crown… am I correct in my interpretation? (my main sources are a 19th-century French dictionary and a popular novel…) Thanks for any help. Physchim62 (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
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I'm moving this discussion here from Talk:Attitude (heraldry) because I feel it has some bearing on this article as well, and may serve to further clarify the distinction of terms such as léopard lionné and lion léopardé. There is some disagreement among sources, so the issue is not as cut-and-dry as this article currently suggests, indeed, some directly contradict this article's unsourced statements on the matter. Of course other sources support them, thus, some discussion is in order. The copied discussion is marked with horizontal lines below. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 15:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
In Rietstap, at least, a lion rampant guardant is a léopard lionné and a lion passant (not guardant) is a lion léopardé. This says to me that the head position is what counts. —Tamfang (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The above quoted passage (except the last phrase) is a close paraphrasing of Fox-Davies, pp. 172-3, as indicated in the footnote. The last bit was a quick summing up to state that there was an argument against this practice without getting into the argument. We can discuss this issue in as much length as the author, but I didn't find it necessary. I just summed up what he had to say about it as succinctly as possible. If you've got something to add to it, find a source and add it. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
A trip to the library yielded these further results:
Thus, Clark's position is that the term leopard is essentially French for a lion gardant (and is also generally presumed to be passant), but that a lion passant is a leopard lioné, while a lion rampant gardant is a lion leopardé. While the attachment of the term leopard to the guardant rather than the passant position is at odds with Fox-Davies, the designations of leopard lioné and lion leopardé are in agreement with Fox-Davies and at odds with Woodward. This seems inconsistent and utterly confusing.
As for Neubecker's bilingual glossary entry quoted above (since I do speak German), this would translate as:
So Neubecker is saying a leopard lioné is is a leopard (which apparently is necessarily guardant) that is upright like a lion. This is totally at odds with Fox-Davies, but also lacks Clark's apparent inconsistency. Another source that I came across today, Boutell's Heraldry (revised, 1978 ed.), on p. 65, had the following to say on the matter:
This is unfortunately of little use to us, but to suggest that the origin of the term is very much like what I earlier hypothesized. So in summary, it seems there is little known and little agreed upon among authors regarding the exact definition of a leopard etc. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 09:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest, deciphering all of the above - especially the older references - that the correct position is this: the French use the simple term "léopard" for a lion that is passant AND guardant. Likewise, the French refer to a lion that is rampant AND in profile simply as a "lion". If you like, these are the two "standard depictions". If the "léopard" is then changed to being in profile, rather than guardant, it becomes a "léopard lionné" - i.e. it is still primarily leopard, because it is passant, but has now been partly "lionized", by having its head put in profile. Likewise, if a "lion" is changed to be guardant, it becomes a "lion leopardé" - it is still a lion, but it has now been partly "leopardized", by being turned guardant. The Wikipedia page for the greater Belgian coat of arms -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Coat_of_Arms_of_Belgium.svg - supports this. There is an original government decree of 1837 (in French) cited on that page which describes the supporting lions on that coat of arms (which are rampant guardant) as "deux lions leopardé". All the others lions shown on that coat of arms are rampant and in profile, and are therefore just described as "lions". (Johnr72 (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
The interesting question is why the lion is so stylized as to violate the anatomy of a lion. The disproportionate limbs, the odd tufts of fur, the two tails, mishapen legs, knotted claws, etc. The discussion of lion or leopard is distracting -as odd as the figures are, the main of hair on the head and the tuft of hair on the tail is unique to lions. What we learn is that some places call lions "leopards". Having said that - I see the two-tailed lion displayed a lot in Germany. A shame that someone removed those images and references because they choose to call them leopards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Turbine valves (talk • contribs) 19:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The text under "lion vs. leopard" on the main page is ambiguous, and even contradictory in places. As a user with native command of French and very good command of English with an interest in heraldry, here is what I gather from the French Wikipedia articles about heraldry, chiefly the very well-written fr:Lion (héraldique), which begins by a comparison of the two beasts; and the collection fr:Armorial au lion where you'll see lions of all kinds, to your heart's content or maybe even ad nauseam. I'll write the French names in bold below, and the English ones in italics to make clear which is which, leaving aside the question of whether or not a leopard should be thought of as a bastard creature as a possible leftover of the Hundred Years' War and of little relevance today, except maybe in the minds of people still rancuniers de toutes les traîtrises britanniques d'Azincourt à Waterloo, sans parler du Brexit (holding grudges for all British treacheries from Agincourt to Waterloo, not to mention the Brexit), people, that is, who still think of England and France as hereditary enemies forever, more than 200 years after Napoleon's demise.
(BTW, even French heralds know that un lion and un léopard are in heraldry terms essentially the same animal, differentiated only by head position and preferred stance.)
French | English |
---|---|
un lion | a lion (rampant) |
un lion léopardé | a lion passant |
un léopard lionné | a lion (rampant) guardant |
un léopard | a lion passant guardant |
-- Oh, and BTW, about the bottom-most remark (from 2009) just above the present subsection: why are lions so stylized? Why, most heraldic charges are stylized, and a lion with e.g. all the "calligraphic" flourishes in his tail is no exception; if you wanted to have a lion painted on your coat-of-arms as a recognizable portrait from a zoo, you might have to blazon that lion as un lion couché, au naturel or whatever is the English equivalent. ;-) A lion couchant proper maybe, if proper is indeed the English term for au naturel.
— Tonymec (talk) 04:33, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
why is it included twice? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumirp (talk • contribs) 15:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as a Lion Revenant? I was under the impression that was what you called a spirit lion like the following: File:Norwich City.svg That is clearly deriving things from the Norwich Coat of Arms, but the lion is extremely stylised. I googled Lion Revenant and found that most references were to a Revenant Lion character in the game Ultima Online. I realise in French Lion Revenant just means 'Returning Lion'. Also, this is presumably an example of a Lion Passant. But I am sure I have seen it elsewhere and would appreciate anyone with more experience in this kind of thing to elucidate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.101.84 (talk) 07:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
The lions couchant image gallery currently contains only one image, which does little to exemplify lions couchant. I think a few additions could better display the range of variation among these. To that end, I propose the following candidates for addition to the image gallery, under the subheading lions couchant. Please consider each individually and comment on each. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
File:Escudo de Arahal (Sevilla).svg - Civic arms of a municipality in Spain, showing a lion couchant proper
File:Blason ville be Denderleeuw (ancien).svg - Civic arms of a municipality in Belgium, showing a lion couchant guardant proper
File:New Coat of arms of Belgorod Oblast.svg - Civic arms of an oblast in Russia, showing a more classically heraldic depiction of a lion couchant
File:Wappen Burgdorf (Region Hannover).png - Civic arms of a district in Hannover, showing a lion couchant guardant
I would like to suggest adding the Lion Contourné pose to the graphic examples given in the article. I was looking up information on the historic region of Courland in Wikipedia, and the article showed the File:Coat of arms of Kurzeme.svg in the header, which features a Lion Contourné (it says so in the description). However, I could not find a good explanation in Wikipedia of what precisely Contourné means - I had to do a search outside of Wikipedia to inform me of its precise meaning. I feel that, if Wikipedia is going to use a specific heraldic term in one or more of its articles, its description or definition ought to be included somewhere within Wikipedia. Not being very fluent in SVG graphics, I managed to convert the Lion Rampant image created by user Sodacan, flipping it to face to the right (sinister). However, my clumsy attempts are only an initial proof, not a final edit, I am sure. Here is what I created, and it can be used or altered freely: File:Lion Contourné.svg
This Contourné heraldic device is actually very important in certain historic references for various uses. For example, the Coat of Arms of Finland at one time originally was a Lion Contourné, indicating that it served as the part of the Swedish Kingdom that faced the threat from the East (i.e., Russia). When Russia annexed Finland, the Lion Contourné in the Finnish Coat of Arms was reversed to be a Lion Rampant, indicating that now Finland faced the threat to Russia from the West. It is also used in other coats of arms and flags, with similar meanings attached.
Please, someone, could you place an example of a Lion Contourné in the article? I am afraid it is beyond my own skills to do so. Thank you. --Saukkomies talk 14:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
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"The lion also carries Judeo-Christian symbolism. The Lion of Judah stands in the coat of arms of Jerusalem. Similar-looking lions can be found elsewhere, such as in the coat of arms of the Swedish royal House of Bjelbo, from there in turn derived into the coat of arms of Finland, formerly belonging to Sweden."
I would remove all mention of Sweden and Finland from the lede, this is about the heraldic device, not specific uses of it. And if that part is true, certainly the article on the Coat of Arms of Finland should make it clear, as currently that is not spelled out there. In fact, mention of the coa of Jerusalem is probably unneccessary too, just mention the lion of Judah, if even that has enough relevance to be mentioned in this particular article. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 23:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
First sentence or so of the History section claims that heraldic symbols are a direct continuation from specifically Viking Animalism. It's 'sourced' with a pop-history/art book. The claim is substantial and doesn't seem in line with academic consensus. New, better and more legitimate sources are needed to substantiate such a claim or it should be removed. 86.5.160.43 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
There's a bunch of mostly unsourced claims (I see someone added one citation, but it's to a tertiary work, which does not appear to even support the claims made), particularly crediting the Scythians with having basically invented Viking art with interwined animal figures (which is actually closely related to insular medieval Celtic art of this sort, itself a blend of a longer artistic traditions in Celtic material culture from Ireland through Eastern Europe, mixed with general European art styles which scribal monks would have been steeped in, in turn with influences from all across the Classical Eurasian world, but not overwhelmingly from Scythia in particular (and much of the Scythian style and motifs are traceable back much ealier to Urartu, Assyria, etc.).
There is no doubt that Scythians along with Persians and others in the Near East to Pontic region had their share of influences on European art motifs in general, and eastern Vikings even had extensive trade into the Middle East, but this cannot be WP:ORed into a claim of Scythian origin of animals in Viking art, and a particular style of rendering them that isn't even similar to Scythian works in the first place (not any more similar than it is to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Arabic, Persian, etc.; it is more similar to all of western Eurasian art, of course, than it is to far Eastern Art, just as all the other categories of w. Eurasian art are more similar to each other than to E. Asian art, and all sorts of E. Asian are are more similar to each other than to any of w. Eurasian art).
This "Scythianism" is part of a quasi-academic, ahistorical, and pseudo-scientific "credit the Scythians and especially the Sarmatians with everything interesting in Northwest European tradition" putsch, including trying to equate various pre-Christian religio-mythological traditions with Sarmatian/Scythian ones, and even trying to pin virtually everything in the Arthurian legends on such an origin instead of on Welsh/British native culture commingled with Western and Central European romance traditions (which did have external influences, but not heavily Scythian ones). None of this appears to be taken very seriously by mainstream scholars, and is at very best an extremely minority viewpoint among academics. Ultimately, it is tied deeply to "British Israelitism" and other nonsense that (since the Early Medieval period) has been desperately trying to connect British and sometimes Scandinavian figures and themes of importance to Holy Land lineages and Biblical events. There's just no plausible evidentiary basis for this crap. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)